Better get used to the BDU - and some thoughts (rant?)

[Shuman 14]

This may have been covered already, but being that we kind of get our funding through the Air Force (chartered by congress), it is important that we remain a part of it. If we were to separate from the Air Force, we would have two options. Beg and plea to allow congress to let us join a department of the government (transportation, like the Coast Guard, or homeland security like TSA) or we could become a completely separate entity and cut all ties from the government, similar to the Sea Cadets (not sure exactly how their system works, but I'm fairly certain they do not receive government funding of any kind).

Both situations are less than ideal and the latter would likely result in a severe loss of membership due to the amount of financial burden that would be put upon all members. The first situation, joining a government agency as an independent organization is a case of wishful thinking. Although it'd be great to be independent and receive our own funding, Congress would never allow it. Money's tight as it is and the last thing congress wants to deal with is another organization asking for funding.

The second situation would be more likely to occur, but would probably cause a huge hit in CAP membership. I know in my Wing, most cadets have their uniforms provided and have five powered and non-powered o-flights. Along with uniforms and flying, cadets and seniors are reimbursed for travel for CAP purposes. If we went fully corporate, all that would go away. Overall, though, I think it would be... interesting if we did separate from the Air Force. Results would be somewhat unpredictable for the first few years, but I think in the end CAP would be more like it once at its inception.

Well I'll throw this out there for discussion, maybe a merger of CAP with the USCGAux would be the answer, with an appropriate transfer of control and funds from USAF/DoD to USCG/DHS.

CAP squadrons would be rolled into USCGAux Air Flotillas and such.

It would require some "painful" changes on both sides to merge their corporate cultures and I'm not sure either the USCG or USCGAux is ready to take on a junior cadet/midshipman program.

BUT

That being said... it could work... maybe. 

[Alaric]

This may have been covered already, but being that we kind of get our funding through the Air Force (chartered by congress), it is important that we remain a part of it. If we were to separate from the Air Force, we would have two options. Beg and plea to allow congress to let us join a department of the government (transportation, like the Coast Guard, or homeland security like TSA) or we could become a completely separate entity and cut all ties from the government, similar to the Sea Cadets (not sure exactly how their system works, but I'm fairly certain they do not receive government funding of any kind).

Both situations are less than ideal and the latter would likely result in a severe loss of membership due to the amount of financial burden that would be put upon all members. The first situation, joining a government agency as an independent organization is a case of wishful thinking. Although it'd be great to be independent and receive our own funding, Congress would never allow it. Money's tight as it is and the last thing congress wants to deal with is another organization asking for funding.

The second situation would be more likely to occur, but would probably cause a huge hit in CAP membership. I know in my Wing, most cadets have their uniforms provided and have five powered and non-powered o-flights. Along with uniforms and flying, cadets and seniors are reimbursed for travel for CAP purposes. If we went fully corporate, all that would go away. Overall, though, I think it would be... interesting if we did separate from the Air Force. Results would be somewhat unpredictable for the first few years, but I think in the end CAP would be more like it once at its inception.

Well I'll throw this out there for discussion, maybe a merger of CAP with the USCGAux would be the answer, with an appropriate transfer of control and funds from USAF/DoD to USCG/DHS.

CAP squadrons would be rolled into USCGAux Air Flotillas and such.

It would require some "painful" changes on both sides to merge their corporate cultures and I'm not sure either the USCG or USCGAux is ready to take on a junior cadet/midshipman program.

BUT

That being said... it could work... maybe. 

I don't really think that would be viable for several reasons:

The need to change the US Code

The CG Aux has very few Air Aux units, most units are move involved with Maritime safety and vessel inspection

Since they actually use their auxilliary to augment the active service I don't see how the younger cadets could be involved.

Their background check is far more detailed than ours the only reason I got my id in less than 3 months is because I already possess a clearance and therefore all the information they wanted was in JPAS

[Shuman 14]

I don't really think that would be viable for several reasons:

The need to change the US Code

The CG Aux has very few Air Aux units, most units are move involved with Maritime safety and vessel inspection

Since they actually use their auxilliary to augment the active service I don't see how the younger cadets could be involved.

Their background check is far more detailed than ours the only reason I got my id in less than 3 months is because I already possess a clearance and therefore all the information they wanted was in JPAS

Oh, I concur, I was just throwing it out there for discussion.

Plus the cultures are just too different to ever merge.

And I hear you about the clearances, we lost lots of people who either couldn't pass the background or simply refused to submit for it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Interesting...

If we ever pursue an EPIRB or ELT as part of the CGAux, we can say... We'll pursue the ELT on Air, Land, and Sea!

[TarRiverRat]

Or we can word it this way "...on Sea, Air, and Land!"  We could be CAP Seals.  Wouldn't that open up a whole can of worms.  Especially on uniforms and the bling that goes with it.

[a2capt]

Oh, great, Rangers and Seals.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As a former CG Auxiliarist, I can say that trying to merge the two auxiliaries would be like oil and water...the cultures are completely, totally different.

CGAUX does not have ranks, they have "offices" (with a plethora of alphabet soup designations I never got my head around).  They elect their leaders who appoint their staff officers.  They do not address one another by ranks, nor do they salute one another, but they are required to salute any and all commissioned and warrant officers, regardless of the office insignia they hold.  Thus, you will see someone wearing insignia that looks like an Admiral in the CGAUX saluting a brand-new CG Ensign or Warrant Officer.  The question of CG saluting Auxiliarists is a non-issue, though it does happen.  I never once heard of an Auxiliarist supposedly trolling for a salute.

They have a MUCH closer relationship with their parent service; beyond anything CAP has ever had with the AF in the 20 years I've been around CAP.  CG commissioned, warrant and petty officers always seemed to be around at everything from boat shows to actual missions.  The last time I saw a CAP-RAP person was about four years ago.  He was an Air Force Reserve Major who flew for the airlines and I never saw him again.  The Chief Director Auxiliary is an AD CG Captain:


Captain Mark Rizzo, USCG, CHDIRAUX

As has been mentioned, the CG AuxAir is extremely, extremely limited.  There is very, very little of any aviation culture in the CGAUX, except perhaps for units based on CG Air Stations.  You also have to go through a LOT more to become qualified as an Auxiliary pilot or aircrew than one does in CAP.

Uniforms are almost a non-issue.  You wear the CG uniform with CGAUX (gold instead of silver) insignia, regardless of height/weight/grooming, period.  There is an optional blazer, which I saw being worn a grand total of one time, at a Change of Watch ceremony, and only because they guy wearing it didn't have service or mess dress.  I cannot recall one incident in which I heard an Auxiliarist grumble about uniforms.  It just was not on the radar.

As for cadets, at best that would have to be folded into the NSCC, because there is little provision for such things in the CGAUX, beyond CG installations sometimes hosting NSCC units, and CG/CGAUX personnel volunteering their time with NSCC.

No, the NSCC does not have a direct auxiliary relationship with the Navy.  However, they do receive funding from Congress.  They also receive a lot of logistic and other kinds of support from the Navy, Marines and Coast Guard.

http://homeport.seacadets.org/display/AdvanceTraining/2014/02/05/NSCC+Funding+Update+for+2014

I have to confess that personally I was much happier in the CGAUX, in large part because I felt a lot more "needed" by the parent service, and because I was always treated well by Coasties of any rank (Petty Officer to Lieutenant-Commander), in contrast to the often barely-acknowledged responses I've gotten from AF personnel.  However, I have little to no interest in things that float on the water (aircraft carriers excepted!) and have always been interested in airplanes.

I do believe that at some stage, CAP will be disconnected from the AF.  I don't know when, or how, but simply because of technological advancements, like drones, eventually we will be made redundant.

The CG has a need for an Auxiliary because they don't have the numbers available that the AF does, plus the CG Reserve is very small.  The AF not only has its AD resources, but also the ANG and AFRES.  At some point I think we will just not be needed by them any more.

[NorCal21]

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely honest.  Do you think that the Air Force would fund 535 aircraft, 1000+ ground vehicles, pay for thousands of flight hours, and all of our maintenance if we weren't part of the "AF team"?  Not even USCGA has that kind of support.  Last I knew, they fly privately-owned aircraft, and I think they need to pick up the tab for the gas too (not 100% sure on the gas point). 

You let me know when we need to buy our own aircraft, buy our own vehicles, and pay for our sorties always out of our own pocket, and I'll start to agree that the AF is trying to get rid of us and we're not part of the family.  Until then, I'm quite content wearing my BBDUs and polo shirts.

Couple of things.

USCGA is the Coast Guard Academy. USCGAUX or CGAUX for Auxiliary. In any case AUX members do not pay for fuel. As long as the fuel being used in whatever facility (facility is the term used to described a private vehicle, aircraft or watercraft used for AUX purposes) is for a CG authorized mission it is completely reimbursed along with some, if not all, maintenance.

Comparing private usage of AUX members to AF paid for equipment isn't the best comparison in that the AF is significantly larger with much greater funding. A couple hundred thousand Airmen to about 45K Coasties. Apples and oranges.

Those two things aside I agree with your post.

[NorCal21]

After reading seven pages of this I have a few observations.

First, apparently the AF doesn't like us but they do except that they are going to get rid of us but they aren't.

Second, we don't wear the ABU because the AF doesn't like us (but they do when they don't) except that CAP withdrew its request because we'll never see combat nor work in the desert except for those people in TX, AZ, NM, CO, NV, UT, CA and so on.

I can go on, but my point is that everyone has a different opinion (and lets be honest that's all these comments are) but there seems to be very little of actual knowledge going on. Of course we all have our own opinions. Its good that we hash them out here. Helps get ideas out in the open. The only way we move forward as an organization is to air differences, air new ideas and work on creating a better force. I don't necessarily disagree with anyone's opinions here other than out of personal taste.

Back to the uniform topic though...

My only real complaint is that the only thing uniform about our uniform is the word uniform in its title. We have too many uniforms for in-shape and out-of-shape and for those who don't want to wear the uniform. Would be nice if we condensed the number of options to a smaller number regardless of which uniform we went with.

I'd also like to see us move away from full color patches. I understand that with the old fatigues it was standard for full-color but not anymore. I also understand the heraldry behind them, but all the branches have maintained the heraldry of the designs while changing the patches to a more uniform pattern in shape with one exception.. the Army. Funny enough CAP seems more in line with the Army than the USAF when it comes to shape, size, color and design on patches but makes sense as the AF came from the Army. Subdued patches would go a long way unless we use BBDU which full color would make sense. I'm just talking common sense. I seriously doubt most people confuse CAP with actual AF personnel, and I doubt even more so that the AF would be confused by CAP members and not know what to do.

I don't particularly see any problem with any of our CAP uniforms. We stay with the BDU or BBDU I don't care. Go to the ABU I don't care, but lets be honest here... does anyone truly think if we had switched to the ABU that this whole stupid conversation wouldn't continue? We'd replace the ABU with the multicam or some other option.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Before answering your post, I think I get your point about so many contradictory messages in CAP.

First, apparently the AF doesn't like us but they do except that they are going to get rid of us but they aren't.

The AF is more ignorant of us than actually disliking us.  If you would ask the average Airman below the grade of E-5 or the average Lieutenant fresh out of OTS about us, chances are good you'd get a "Who?" or possibly a "Oh, yeah, I know those guys.  They dress up and play like they're in the Air Force and expect us to salute them.  I read all about it in the Air Force Times.  Bunch of poseurs."

In general, I would say the policy from the AF is one of benign (not malign) neglect.  They pony up for funding, but not much else, dependent on where you are.  Some AF/AFR/ANG bases are very hospitable to us, others don't want anything to do with us.  The best treatment any of my squadrons received was one at a National Guard armoury.  The CWO-3 there gave us almost unlimited access.

Second, we don't wear the ABU because the AF doesn't like us (but they do when they don't) except that CAP withdrew its request because we'll never see combat nor work in the desert except for those people in TX, AZ, NM, CO, NV, UT, CA and so on.

From what I know, CAP withdrew the request for the ABU because the Air Force itself is going to discontinue it.

I can go on, but my point is that everyone has a different opinion (and lets be honest that's all these comments are) but there seems to be very little of actual knowledge going on. Of course we all have our own opinions. Its good that we hash them out here. Helps get ideas out in the open.  The only way we move forward as an organization is to air differences, air new ideas and work on creating a better force. I don't necessarily disagree with anyone's opinions here other than out of personal taste.

Like my dad always said, opinions are like [censored]s.  Everybody's got one, they all stink, some more than others.

My only real complaint is that the only thing uniform about our uniform is the word uniform in its title. We have too many uniforms for in-shape and out-of-shape and for those who don't want to wear the uniform. Would be nice if we condensed the number of options to a smaller number regardless of which uniform we went with.

It wasn't always that way.  The corporate styles came in around the '90s, around the time the AF took away metal grade from us and imposed the H/W restrictions.

I'd also like to see us move away from full color patches. Subdued patches would go a long way unless we use BBDU which full color would make sense. I'm just talking common sense.

Common sense perhaps (for aesthetics if nothing else) but it will never happen.  No way would the AF sign off on that.  I've related a story of where I talked briefly to an Ensign in the USNSCC and he was wearing woodland BDU's with subdued nametapes and subdued metal rank.  He said he couldn't figure out why the Air Force treated us the way they did regarding uniforms.

I seriously doubt most people confuse CAP with actual AF personnel, and I doubt even more so that the AF would be confused by CAP members and not know what to do.

Rarely have I been confused with AF personnel, and I use such times as an opportunity to educate about CAP.

Most of the time when I have been on an AF installation I get no reaction at all from AF personnel, except when I salute a senior officer, who must then return the salute.  It wasn't always this way, but most rank-and-file Airmen I encounter tend to avoid us/act like we're not there.

I don't particularly see any problem with any of our CAP uniforms. We stay with the BDU or BBDU I don't care. Go to the ABU I don't care, but lets be honest here... does anyone truly think if we had switched to the ABU that this whole stupid conversation wouldn't continue? We'd replace the ABU with the multicam or some other option.

I've aired my loathing for the grey/white/blazer so I won't do it again, other than to say I wear the G/W grudgingly because I have to.  I have no problem with the BBDU or blue flight suit, both of which I wear proudly.

[Storm Chaser]

As someone who does a fair amount of coordination and work with the Air Force (AFRCC, Air Force installations, etc.), I don't see a problem with our relationship. I believe the Air Force appreciates what CAP does. The problem is that we're just a small part of the equation when it comes to the Air Force as a whole. Some members may interpret that as something else. I don't.

[lordmonar]

When I was on Active Duty......we used to complain "no one likes comm until the phones don't work".
Basic fact of life in the USAF.....the closer you are to getting bombs on target the better you are "liked". 
But we are all an important part of the machine.....and we should not get too wrapped up in what we think the USAF thinks about us or what our uniform rules implies the USAF thinks about us.

Suffice to say....if the USAF hated us.....they would end us.   It is that simple.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think you gentlemen are looking at it from what I would call the "macro" point of view.  You are fortunate enough to have experienced interaction with the AF, and so you can see things with a broader lens.

My experience with the USAF viz. CAP has been very much at the "micro" level.

I have never been on a major USAF base in a CAP capacity - my experience has been limited to ANG and AFRC bases, and then usually only for a squadron meeting, weekend activity (SLS, CLC, comm school) or some sort of thing where the only real contact with AF personnel has been Guard/Reserve on UTA.  That or going to MCSS (where, unlike some CAP members, I've never had trouble purchasing uniforms).

When I first joined ('93) I got a hearty handshake and "attaboy for all you CAP volunteers do for the Air Force" from a USAF Reserve (I think) Lt. Col. coming out of MCSS.  That was a real warm fuzzy.

It kind of went downhill from there, in my experience; now even getting a greeting (unless I am saluting a senior officer) is more the exception than the rule.

Of course there was the State Director I mentioned who came to a meeting and told us that our only purpose was to shepherd the cadets to get their Mitchell so they could get their E-3.  Credit where it's due - Eclipse said he was way out of line and should have been challenged, but I think we were all too gobsmacked at the time.

But those are just my experiences.  Obviously, you gentlemen, having contact with those more highly placed, have had different experiences.

[NorCal21]

To be honest I view our relationship with the AF like how supply clerks are viewed by infantry in the Marines, or support elements are viewed by Rangers in the Army, etc. We're viewed as a lesser force, but tolerated because of need. I'm sure that's not service wide for those in the AF, but its just my general experience. I know that the USAFA definitely appreciates CAP though based on personal experience.

[Archer]

To be honest I view our relationship with the AF like how supply clerks are viewed by infantry in the Marines, or support elements are viewed by Rangers in the Army, etc. We're viewed as a lesser force, but tolerated because of need. I'm sure that's not service wide for those in the AF, but its just my general experience. I know that the USAFA definitely appreciates CAP though based on personal experience.

How does CAP support USAFA?

[SarDragon]

To be honest I view our relationship with the AF like how supply clerks are viewed by infantry in the Marines, or support elements are viewed by Rangers in the Army, etc. We're viewed as a lesser force, but tolerated because of need. I'm sure that's not service wide for those in the AF, but its just my general experience. I know that the USAFA definitely appreciates CAP though based on personal experience.

How does CAP support USAFA?

Sends them students?

[The14th]

To be honest I view our relationship with the AF like how supply clerks are viewed by infantry in the Marines, or support elements are viewed by Rangers in the Army, etc. We're viewed as a lesser force, but tolerated because of need. I'm sure that's not service wide for those in the AF, but its just my general experience. I know that the USAFA definitely appreciates CAP though based on personal experience.

I'd venture to guess that the majority of the AF doesn't even know we exist, and the one's that do, don't care either way. My Squadron operates out of hangar on Randolph AFB that also houses an AF pilot training squadron and I've already had to explain what CAP is to a few people who work in the same building next door to us.

It's hardly the same relationship shared by Infantry and POGs.

[JeffDG]

The much hated / exalted golf shirt / tactical pants combo fulfills 95% of the need for 95% of CAP missions, including
95% or SAR, including, but not limited to:


>ALL FLYING< ALL. Every flight, in every wing.

Not in California Wing. And we have a supplement to back it up too.
CAWG Supplement to CAPR 60-3, 24 Aug 12.  Para 1-11 c

Not according to NHQ.  NHQ's list of approved waivers or supplements to 60-3 does not list one for CA, and NHQ and CAP-USAF  approval is required for supplements to 60-3

http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-60-3/

Also, CA's supplement to 60-1 has been expired and of no force or effect for nearly 2 years.
http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/aircraft_ops__staneval/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-60-1/

[Tim Medeiros]

When I was on Active Duty......we used to complain "no one likes comm until the phones don't work".
Basic fact of life in the USAF.....the closer you are to getting bombs on target the better you are "liked". 
But we are all an important part of the machine.....and we should not get too wrapped up in what we think the USAF thinks about us or what our uniform rules implies the USAF thinks about us.

Suffice to say....if the USAF hated us.....they would end us.   It is that simple.

I've yet to come across truer words.  Though for me you'd replace phones with servers, specifically email. 


I still remember block 2 of my tech school where our instructor listed the most common types of servers we'd work with, in order of priority to work on should they go down.  Exchange (email) was #1.

[Eclipse]

Being a "necessary evil" doesn't exactly stir the hearts of men.

"Join the CAP and become a tolerated economic necessity..."