Better get used to the BDU - and some thoughts (rant?)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Mission, purpose, and interesting activities and experiences will bring us far more
useful and retained members then any uniform.

Not on the CP side.   Which I was addressing.

Retained is key here. Getting them in the door is great. But if all they do is drill all meeting...what's the point?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For what it's worth, as a now-retired (after 23 years service at all eschelons including NHQ), I don't believe the USAF wants any sort of camaraderie with CAP. At best, they will tolerate us ... until IMHO, they can find a way to dispose of us.

I agree, but as I said, it would take a literal Act of Congress to divorce us from the Air Force.  Senator John McCain has tried it a few times.  For some reason we are a bee in his bonnet.

Interestingly, a bit mentioned at our Wing Conference earlier this morning is that Ma Blue, in light of the reduction of AF and Reserve forces, is now realizing the value of CAP and desires closer integration of CAP with the First Air Force and the "Total Force".  A side effect of this integration will be a re-design of the promotion requirements, as CAP officers will now be held to a higher standard  closer to their AF and Reserve counterparts, but that's a topic for another thread.

Filed under "I will believe it when it happens."

Quite. I had a thought that we would operate better as an instrument of the Air Guard as opposed to the regular Air Force. Our civilian missions are similar.

Actually, I think Title 10 issues would come into it.  Most of the time, the ANG/ArNG is an instrumentality of their State Governments unless called into Federal service.  CAP is "all Federal, all the time."

I could see us being better managed - and appreciated - by the Army, especially the ArNG.  Instead of sending out expensive Blackhawk helos on SAR missions, they could send CAP light aircraft, to spot a downed aircraft, and then send a Blackhawk.

I'll believe it when I start getting strategic plans and direction that are in any way connected to 1AF plans
in anything but a last-minute "OMG!" way.

We've been hearing about CAP being part of "Total Force" for 10+ years.

It would be just like the USAF to finally start expecting CAP to cash those chits now that it is at it's smallest level of readiness
and size in a decade.

Agreed 100%, sir.

Most Seniors see it as more of a headache.

I think that is an example of the "polo-shirt-is-the-only-uniform-you-need" mentality that has been growing in CAP, especially in senior squadrons.

In my first (and best) squadron (composite), everybody wore the AF blues/BDU's.  I never saw a polo shirt or the then-current grey/white uniform until I went to my first wing activity.

Let's be brutally honest. If we were on the "AF team" we wouldn't have to beg for them.

Quite so.

I think MARS is MUCH more a part of the "AF team" than we are...if it were otherwise, they would have no need for MARS, because CAP communicators could be handling the mission.

[lordmonar]

Let's be honest....I want them because I want to be immediately identifiable as part of the AF team.

Let's be brutally honest. If we were on the "AF team" we wouldn't have to beg for them.

We don't.  We need our leaders to actually make the request.

It is a CAP failure....not a USAF failure.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Let's be honest....I want them because I want to be immediately identifiable as part of the AF team.

Let's be brutally honest. If we were on the "AF team" we wouldn't have to beg for them.

We don't.  We need our leaders to actually make the request.

It is a CAP failure....not a USAF failure.

You are correct in many ways, Master Sergeant.

The AF did not quash the CSU - CAP did, and we will never know why.

As has been pointed out, CAP withdrew the request for the ABU.  The AF did not have a chance to say "yea" or "nay."

CAP only gives those who cannot/will not wear the AF uniform one option for a "dressy" uniform - grey and white/blazer.

It has been over twenty years ago that the transgressions which supposedly led to the imposition of the berry boards, but has CAP even asked the AF about returning to "the way we were?"

Like my mother always said, "you don't know if you don't ask."

[Panzerbjorn]

Let's be honest....I want them because I want to be immediately identifiable as part of the AF team.

Let's be brutally honest. If we were on the "AF team" we wouldn't have to beg for them.

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely honest.  Do you think that the Air Force would fund 535 aircraft, 1000+ ground vehicles, pay for thousands of flight hours, and all of our maintenance if we weren't part of the "AF team"?  Not even USCGA has that kind of support.  Last I knew, they fly privately-owned aircraft, and I think they need to pick up the tab for the gas too (not 100% sure on the gas point). 

You let me know when we need to buy our own aircraft, buy our own vehicles, and pay for our sorties always out of our own pocket, and I'll start to agree that the AF is trying to get rid of us and we're not part of the family.  Until then, I'm quite content wearing my BBDUs and polo shirts.

[Eclipse]

Mission, purpose, and interesting activities and experiences will bring us far more
useful and retained members then any uniform.

Not on the CP side.   Which I was addressing.

Retained is key here. Getting them in the door is great. But if all they do is drill all meeting...what's the point?

Or worse, simply quit.

A cadet whose sole or primary motivation for joining is wearing a USAF-Style uniform is unlikely to be a successful
cadet, nor retained in any meaningful way. 

No one can argue that the affiliation is an attractor and a motivator,
but that's the case for several other organizations that cadet-age kids join, at about the 3-6 month mark, the ones who
just wanted to have a cool get-up start dropping off when the organization begins to press the expectations of performance.

An organization's uniform is supposed to perform a variety of functions, the most important of which is mission-functionality,
and the least important of which is recruiting.  CAP's multiform gets it backwards and then uses the inverse logic as justification
for not fixing things, as well as ignoring the demographic they are actually trying to attract.

"The uniform is a big recruiting tool, even though more then 50% of the current adult membership isn't allowed to wear it..."

Magical thinking.

[Eclipse]

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely honest.  Do you think that the Air Force would fund 535 aircraft, 1000+ ground vehicles, pay for thousands of flight hours, and all of our maintenance if we weren't part of the "AF team"? 

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely factual.

The USAF does not "fund" CAP - they administer the Congressional appropriation, a nuance many people miss when talking about "Total Force".
If CAP were a legitimate USAF "funded" program, we would have likely been gone many moons ago.

[Panzerbjorn]

I truly and deeply apologize that my semantics caused anyone to miss the point I was making.

[lordmonar]

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely honest.  Do you think that the Air Force would fund 535 aircraft, 1000+ ground vehicles, pay for thousands of flight hours, and all of our maintenance if we weren't part of the "AF team"? 

Let's be truly, completely, and absolutely factual.

The USAF does not "fund" CAP - they administer the Congressional appropriation, a nuance many people miss when talking about "Total Force".
If CAP were a legitimate USAF "funded" program, we would have likely been gone many moons ago.

No.....not true.   
a)  We do a mission the USAF would have to do much much much cheaper.
and most importantly:
b) The USAF has always like The Civil Air Patrol.....they may have not liked our National Commander or Senior Leaders at times.....but they like us.

[Eclipse]

"Liking" CAP is irrelevant in a world where primary mission systems, not to mention plenty of other pet projects the USAF "likes"
are being cut or imperiled left and right.

Being told Congress telling the USAF "you will do this, and here's a check..." is not the same as the USAF asking Congress "we'd like to do this, may we have a check...".

The fundamental reality is that CAP has been a financially expedient way to execute a mission the USAF is stuck with, and everything else
is an ancillary benefit or "nice to have", which may or may not duplicate other programs, and may or may not work "better" than similar
programs or other resources.

It may not have started that way, but it has certainly evolved that way, for a variety of reasons, many out of CAP's control, and
many akin to the realities of both modern technology and modern society.

The cadet program is >not< a recruiting arm of the USAF.  It's not intended for that, and it doesn't perform that mission.
The fact that recruiters may visit a unit occasionally, and that the CP can give a cadet a small taste of military life as an orientation
doesn't change the primary intention and goal of the CP.

CAP's relevance, capabilities, and readiness in ES, despite the potential, have been eroding gradually over the past 20 years,
and more geometrically over the last ten, as technology starts to run ahead of CAP's capabilities and NHQ takes an increasing
level of credit for missions performed more because of "sunk cost" (i.e. the fleet) then any advanced capabilities.

The reality is that a sub $1000 quadcopter with an HD camera like the Phantom, with an operator in a moving vehicle can
perform the majority of the aerial photo survey missions that our esteemed AP's do today, with no special licensing, and
significantly lower cost.  Despite the minefield of FAA rules, these are being used today for that very purpose, and
as soon as things are loosened up, it's "game on!".

The venerable "Mark I Eyeball" simply cannot compete with this technology, especially if you set the acquisition bar
at "something less then the $350K an outfitted C182 costs".

Meanwhile, the ES curriculum is 13(ish) years old, and the program continues to shrink with zero effort, or even rhetoric
to fixing that vector.

Like many things American's have taken for granted for decades, CAP is at significant risk.  I think that it is not beyond fixing,
but we need to start making tough, unpopular choices, accept the reality of the data and the times, and stop taking
credit for things which were put in motion 10 years ago.

A train running downhill, with it's boilers cold, will continue quite a while on its own inertia, before it comes to a full stop,
never to move again.  That's pretty much where CAP is today - running on inertia with its boilers cold.

[Devil Doc]

I just love all the disinformation that gets out there on this subject.

"we are not getting ABU's because we will never fight in the desert"..........strange that the USAF does not wear ABU's in the desert....so that argument is kind of not a lame excuse.

I think PHall got the right line on this.  CAP has not gotten ABU's because CAP has never asked for them.   We almost did....but we withdrew that request.....on the belief that the USAF is going to change.

None of this has anything to do with the urban legend that the USAF would like to get rid of us.....which in MHO is complete and utter BS.

YMMV.

Yeah, I gotta raise an eyebrown on the "never conduct operations in the desert" bit.  Last I checked, a good portion of the southwestern United States was desert, a fact I'm pretty sure the AF is aware.

Interestingly, a bit mentioned at our Wing Conference earlier this morning is that Ma Blue, in light of the reduction of AF and Reserve forces, is now realizing the value of CAP and desires closer integration of CAP with the First Air Force and the "Total Force".  A side effect of this integration will be a re-design of the promotion requirements, as CAP officers will now be held to a higher standard  closer to their AF and Reserve counterparts, but that's a topic for another thread.

Do tell. Sounds Interesting.


I do have a question that has been bothering me. Why are we never told what happend to the CSU and other ideas that got Canned? Why is CAP NHQ not telling us? We are volunteers for goodness sake, its not like we can use it against them.

[Garibaldi]

I just love all the disinformation that gets out there on this subject.

"we are not getting ABU's because we will never fight in the desert"..........strange that the USAF does not wear ABU's in the desert....so that argument is kind of not a lame excuse.

I think PHall got the right line on this.  CAP has not gotten ABU's because CAP has never asked for them.   We almost did....but we withdrew that request.....on the belief that the USAF is going to change.

None of this has anything to do with the urban legend that the USAF would like to get rid of us.....which in MHO is complete and utter BS.

YMMV.

Yeah, I gotta raise an eyebrown on the "never conduct operations in the desert" bit.  Last I checked, a good portion of the southwestern United States was desert, a fact I'm pretty sure the AF is aware.

Interestingly, a bit mentioned at our Wing Conference earlier this morning is that Ma Blue, in light of the reduction of AF and Reserve forces, is now realizing the value of CAP and desires closer integration of CAP with the First Air Force and the "Total Force".  A side effect of this integration will be a re-design of the promotion requirements, as CAP officers will now be held to a higher standard  closer to their AF and Reserve counterparts, but that's a topic for another thread.

Do tell. Sounds Interesting.


I do have a question that has been bothering me. Why are we never told what happend to the CSU and other ideas that got Canned? Why is CAP NHQ not telling us? We are volunteers for goodness sake, its not like we can use it against them.

I am not sure, but I think it may have to do with HWSNBN/Voldemort and Slytherin House. Erase all the bad that came from that epic adventure. Or there was a quiet revolt of the Colonels, much like the Revolt of the Admirals over the B-36 project.

[Eclipse]

A side effect of this integration will be a re-design of the promotion requirements, as CAP officers will now be held to a higher standard  closer to their AF and Reserve counterparts, but that's a topic for another thread.

100% nonsense - someone trying to sound like they are "in the know".

Unless grade is tied to authority, the effort is wasted.

[Garibaldi]

A side effect of this integration will be a re-design of the promotion requirements, as CAP officers will now be held to a higher standard  closer to their AF and Reserve counterparts, but that's a topic for another thread.

100% nonsense - someone trying to sound like they are "in the know".

Unless grade is tied to authority, the effort is wasted.

I seem to remember the rumors flying around in the mid 90s regarding our status with the Air Force at the time. One of the more insane theories was that we were going to actually get "commissions" but no pay.

[JoeTomasone]

Cadets care because they want to look tak-ti-kewl.

Most Seniors see it as more of a headache.

Maybe we can just add these to the 24h kit?




And yes... Before you ask...  This is a real product.

[Panache]

Cadets care because they want to look tak-ti-kewl.

Most Seniors see it as more of a headache.

Maybe we can just add these to the 24h kit?




And yes... Before you ask...  This is a real product.

But to use them, you need the sooper-sekrit lunch codes.

[antdetroitwallyball]

I'm personnally fine with the BDU and blue BDU in general. What I loathe is the dumb and unprofessional bling that ends up getting slathered onto the uniform. Classic example, the "SAR Dog" ES oval patch. Seriously, WTF?

Even the oval airplane ES patch looks a bit too large and out of place. I think a squadron patch is fine, providing it's not corny looking to begin with.........but as far as any extra patches on the BDU uniforms go, I think that should be it.

If we want to go the route of a CAP distinctive uniform, that's fine. But let's make it look professional. The local SAR agencies are not going to give us any serious respect if we look like adult boy scouts. If we want an alternate CAP distictive uniform that looks professional and is not trying to look like a half-hearted tribute to the USAF, let's develop a neon fluorescent green type coat that makes us look like professional SAR people. Right now, CAP's distictive non USAF uniform looks something akin to the boy scouts.

Done right, the BDU uniform we currently wear has the potential to look professional, even despite the ultramarine name tapes.

[Storm Chaser]

Any field uniform worn by CAP (BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc.) will be distinctive enough with all the color patches on the uniform, so I don't understand the reason we can't have one field uniform that every member can wear. I would like to wear ABUs (or whatever the Air Force wears next), but to me that is such a small issue. Having a single field uniform, while also not one of my top priorities, would rank higher than wearing an Air Force one.

[Eclipse]

Any field uniform worn by CAP (BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc.) will be distinctive enough with all the color patches on the uniform, so I don't understand the reason we can't have one field uniform that every member can wear.

This would be a very interesting "Ask The Commander".

The BDU now serves none of the original purposes for which it was intended.

There is no free-flow of uniforms for cadets through DRMO or any other military channel.

It no longer provide USAF affinity or affectation.

It cannot be worn by at least 50% of the adult members and even some cadets.

It >is< a safety issue in regards to visibility.

It will now, for the most part, have to be purchased though retail or surplus channels
for everyone, just as the Blue Field Uniform is.

So why would we keep in in the inventory?

Moving to the Blue Field Uniform is the solution here, for all members, including cadets.

[Garibaldi]

Any field uniform worn by CAP (BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc.) will be distinctive enough with all the color patches on the uniform, so I don't understand the reason we can't have one field uniform that every member can wear.

This would be a very interesting "Ask The Commander".

The BDU now serves none of the original purposes for which it was intended.

There is no free-flow of uniforms for cadets through DRMO or any other military channel.

It no longer provide USAF affinity or affectation.

It cannot be worn by at least 50% of the adult members and even some cadets.

It >is< a safety issue in regards to visibility.

It will now, for the most part, have to be purchased though retail or surplus channels
for everyone, just as the Blue Field Uniform is.

So why would we keep in in the inventory?

Moving to the Blue Field Uniform is the solution here, for all members, including cadets.

I had a rant all prepared for this last sentence, and I got distracted and had a second thought.

If, for some reason, CAP migrated to the BBDU only, I might not like it, but I think that I would put the mission first over my personal taste. Just so long as they don't make me wear the polo or (G-d forbid) some sort of hideous G/W combo in the field. I detested the OG-107 fatigues when I joined and wished we could have worn jungle fatigues full time. Then, there was the glorious time of the BDUs. And now, no one knows what direction we are headed with the utility/field uniform. BDU? ABU? BBDU? Some Other?

I guess every uniform and combo has a shelf life. Perhaps we should consider adopting the BBDU as the official CAP field uniform since we are (apparently) not getting a new AF-style uniform any time soon. It can't be any worse than the Smurf Suit.