ABU uniform for Civil Air Patrol

[lordmonar]

Okay......well I think we have all reached that point in the conversation....
Yes Function over Form.
Yes a good image is imporatant.
And yes.....cadets and CP'ers have a tendancy to stress form over function.

[rustyjeeper]

Are you even involved in SAR? I am, and as a GTL I know it is important for my teams to be presentable as we interface with the public; however, my BBDUs have NEVER been ironed, and my boots are NOT shiney (they've had two coats put on for protective purposes, that's it), yet I still manage to do my job every time. Presentable means a clean uniform (assuming we haven't just navigated through some mysterious swamp that popped up in IL) and in good repair with no unauthorized patches and you are wearing the correct uniform for your weight and grooming. Beyond that, any ironing will likely be covered up by gear or go to hell in the first hour of boots on the ground.
[/quote] SPACEMAN
---------------

I am also involved in GT and you are right on the money. A boot kit is part of our 72 hour kit (rarely used in the field but for someone to have one is a good thing/ everyone NO that is just silliness but it is required). Despite the inclusion of a boot shine kit which does serve a purpose (waterproffing/leather protection and emergency fuel source LOL) I notice that there is NO PROVISION for a butane powered iron or a Generator and conventional Iron in the gear; perhaps this is something that our appearance oriented RE members would like to address for the future so as to further hinder our actual operational capabilities so that we can look good doing nothing :angel:

[PHall]

Sir, I am talking about a professional volunteer SAR organization. Not the military.

Who wants to help/talk to a bunch of guys that look like crap?

I missed the part where we no longer care about how we represent ourselves. You are a representitive of CAP. Your uniform, your grooming, and your attitude all affect how we are viewed.

Hey, next time you're out on an ACTUAL MISSION as a Ground Team member, take a look around at the folks from the other agencies.
You're probably not going to see any razor sharp creases or spit shined boots.

Why is that you ask? Beacuse a razor sharp crease or a super shiny boot does absolutely nothing to further their ability to find the object of the search.

Their uniform is just another piece of equipment to them. It protects them and identifies them. All it needs to be is clean and in good repair.
Just like all of the other equipment they use...

[rustyjeeper]

Sir, I am talking about a professional volunteer SAR organization. Not the military.

Who wants to help/talk to a bunch of guys that look like crap?

I missed the part where we no longer care about how we represent ourselves. You are a representitive of CAP. Your uniform, your grooming, and your attitude all affect how we are viewed.

Hey, next time you're out on an ACTUAL MISSION as a Ground Team member, take a look around at the folks from the other agencies.
You're probably not going to see any razor sharp creases or spit shined boots.

Why is that you ask? Beacuse a razor sharp crease or a super shiny boot does absolutely nothing to further their ability to find the object of the search.

Their uniform is just another piece of equipment to them. It protects them and identifies them. All it needs to be is clean and in good repair.
Just like all of the other equipment they use...

the sentance in red says it all to me, the rest I agree with but I am tired of beating my head against the wall arguing for common sense, where I know from experience some will never get it....

[NIN]

Are you even involved in SAR? I am, and as a GTL I know it is important for my teams to be presentable as we interface with the public; however, my BBDUs have NEVER been ironed, and my boots are NOT shiney (they've had two coats put on for protective purposes, that's it), yet I still manage to do my job every time. Presentable means a clean uniform (assuming we haven't just navigated through some mysterious swamp that popped up in IL) and in good repair with no unauthorized patches and you are wearing the correct uniform for your weight and grooming. Beyond that, any ironing will likely be covered up by gear or go to hell in the first hour of boots on the ground.

Involved in SAR? Hmmm. Let me think.

GTM from 1981 on. Missed a couple-three years while I was overseas, then GTL from about 1989 to 2009 with some dalliances in other base staff/GSAR/Air Ops functions. Both in a Flatland state and in a mountainous state.

Schooling included Drummond Island & Hawk Mtn, taught at several others.

I probably have more time on the crapper on SARs than.... oh, nevermind.

[Spaceman3750]

Are you even involved in SAR? I am, and as a GTL I know it is important for my teams to be presentable as we interface with the public; however, my BBDUs have NEVER been ironed, and my boots are NOT shiney (they've had two coats put on for protective purposes, that's it), yet I still manage to do my job every time. Presentable means a clean uniform (assuming we haven't just navigated through some mysterious swamp that popped up in IL) and in good repair with no unauthorized patches and you are wearing the correct uniform for your weight and grooming. Beyond that, any ironing will likely be covered up by gear or go to hell in the first hour of boots on the ground.

Involved in SAR? Hmmm. Let me think.

GTM from 1981 on. Missed a couple-three years while I was overseas, then GTL from about 1989 to 2009 with some dalliances in other base staff/GSAR/Air Ops functions. Both in a Flatland state and in a mountainous state.

Schooling included Drummond Island & Hawk Mtn, taught at several others.

I probably have more time on the crapper on SARs than.... oh, nevermind.

Sorry NIN, I wasn't referring to you. I thought I quoted a post above you. I know you have been quite active through your many years and have been in places crappier than the forest in some backwoods state .

[AngelWings]

Well, all I can see in all of the replies pushing extremes. I hope CAP is never deployed to war, because clearly now we are somehow on the same level of our warriors. And I wonder what wing has so much SAR action that they are always wearing their gear. I have had many great friends who have served in the military, friends in all branches, and they always had a presentable uniform when I saw them in uniform while not on deployed, whether it be a picture or me actually meeting them while they are in uniform. I seriously don't care if you iron your uniform or not, spit shine your boots or not, but I do expect that your uniform does not look like it was rolled out of a duffle bag, that your boots atleast are all one color of black, and that there are not so many threads you could rappel all of the 101st AA. Simply said, I do not ever see a happy medium between us. Some of us spend practically whole day on our BDU's while others of us only spend 2 seconds throwing it in the wash or the dryer and not hanging it up when it is done drying. Another thing, there is the domino effect to a consistent leader. If all of the dominos fall, then you are proficent in all aspects of being a leader. You take out the uniform domino, it is going to be hard for the dominos to keep falling into place. It is also suggested under this theory that one domino can be missing but still work, but it is going to be noticable that it is missing because you have a gap in your dominos. I stress competence across the spectrum with my fellow cadets. I noticed in the replies that have popped up that there is a stressing of SAR. I am getting worried, is there a huge amount of missions happening that you guys are always out with your gear on?

[Spaceman3750]

is there a huge amount of missions happening that you guys are always out with your gear on?

You assume that we all wear BDUs at meetings. I only wear BDUs on missions, I'm one of the polo-shirted rebels the rest of the time (sometimes I'm a polo shirted rebel at missions too!)

You also assume that uniforms are part of the "leadership domino effect" (as you put it). In the CP world, they are, but in mine, they aren't really that big of a factor. Like someone else said, it's mostly there to protect and identify me. I lead from my email behind a desk more than I do in a uniform at an activity (a side effect of being a group staffer and living an hour away from your squadron of record).

[lordmonar]

Well, all I can see in all of the replies pushing extremes. I hope CAP is never deployed to war, because clearly now we are somehow on the same level of our warriors. And I wonder what wing has so much SAR action that they are always wearing their gear. I have had many great friends who have served in the military, friends in all branches, and they always had a presentable uniform when I saw them in uniform while not on deployed, whether it be a picture or me actually meeting them while they are in uniform. I seriously don't care if you iron your uniform or not, spit shine your boots or not, but I do expect that your uniform does not look like it was rolled out of a duffle bag, that your boots atleast are all one color of black, and that there are not so many threads you could rappel all of the 101st AA. Simply said, I do not ever see a happy medium between us. Some of us spend practically whole day on our BDU's while others of us only spend 2 seconds throwing it in the wash or the dryer and not hanging it up when it is done drying. Another thing, there is the domino effect to a consistent leader. If all of the dominos fall, then you are proficent in all aspects of being a leader. You take out the uniform domino, it is going to be hard for the dominos to keep falling into place. It is also suggested under this theory that one domino can be missing but still work, but it is going to be noticable that it is missing because you have a gap in your dominos. I stress competence across the spectrum with my fellow cadets. I noticed in the replies that have popped up that there is a stressing of SAR. I am getting worried, is there a huge amount of missions happening that you guys are always out with your gear on?

Neat and professional.........there is a lot of space between Dirt Bag Duffle Bag and Honor Guard Razor Sharp that fills the description of "neat and professional".

I think that is where the disconnect is.

Someone mentions that "wrinkle free" is not the same as "40 layers of starch" and then we get argument about capabliities.

Yes....many people in the military and in CAP have forgotten the difference between Function and Form.  Somewhere there is a balance where function and form gives us the best of both.....it's pretty and it works.

This is not a new argument. 
This argument has been going on in the military for as long as I have been associatied with the USAF.  It has included everthing from uniforms, shoe shines, hair cuts, weight managment, PT.

So....let's all agree....that Form is not Not always Function.....but that presenting a good image is generally a good thing.

I stress uniform compliance, neat, clean and serviceable to my cadets and seniors.  Anyone who comes and shows me the three hours they spend on their boot and ironing their BDU just right.....I complement them on their efforts, then ask them how they stand are their promotion tests, or how their subordinates are doing and what their uniforms look like.

It is not that a perfect uniform is a bad thing.....but you reach a point of diminishing returns.  I can spend 5 hours preping my uniform...starch and iron everthing, polish shoes, measure rank, name and ribbons to within 1/64".

Or I can take my uniforms to the dry cleaners.  Spend 5 minutes using windex on my Corfams, 10 minues getting my name tage and ribbons centered and grounded and I'm good.

WIWOAD.....I polished my boots once a week.....that is Monday morning when I got in to work...I took the kiwi and gave them a quick once over....10 mins max.  Maybe during the week....if I was working outside a lot and they got extra dirty I would take the buffing brush to them.

When we switched to ABUs.......I loved it....saved me $8/week in dry cleaning bills.  Wash the uniform, hang it up as soon as the dryer pings......brush off the boots every few days......cool!  It's a work uniform, no one should be expecting you to pass and inspcetion in them.  But that does not mean you can allow yourself to look like a pig either.  Neat and professional.

[rustyjeeper]

I am glad we all came to agreement on that

Now lets get some more SAR mission activity so we can roll around like pigs in the mud in our "neat and presentable" BDU's.
kidding
My entire point was that a uniform should look good, not too good we are not the Old Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown....
We have a job to train for or to do and that is what it is all about.
Anyone who does not care about their appearance does not belong here. That said we dont need a bunch of primma donnas either- there needs to be a balance and our uniform appearance is not the end all be all as it often appears to be what so many are here for.

[SarDragon]

Well, all I can see in all of the replies pushing extremes. I hope CAP is never deployed to war, because clearly now we are somehow on the same level of our warriors. {A} And I wonder what wing has so much SAR action that they are always wearing their gear. I have had many great friends who have served in the military, friends in all branches, and they always had a presentable uniform when I saw them in uniform while not on deployed, whether it be a picture or me actually meeting them while they are in uniform. I seriously don't care if you iron your uniform or not, spit shine your boots or not, but I do expect that your  {B} uniform does not look like it was rolled out of a duffle bag, that {C} your boots at least are all one color of black, and that there are not so many threads you could rappel all of the 101st AA. Simply said, I do not ever see a happy medium between us. Some of us spend practically whole day on our BDU's while {D} others of us only spend 2 seconds throwing it in the wash or the dryer and not hanging it up when it is done drying. Another thing, there is the domino effect to a consistent leader. If all of the dominos fall, then you are proficent in all aspects of being a leader. You take out the uniform domino, it is going to be hard for the dominos to keep falling into place. It is also suggested under this theory that one domino can be missing but still work, but it is going to be noticable that it is missing because you have a gap in your dominos. I stress competence across the spectrum with my fellow cadets. I noticed in the replies that have popped up that there is a stressing of SAR. I am getting worried, is there a huge amount of missions happening that you guys are always out with your gear on?

First of all, please use your return/enter key a bit more often. Reading this stuff all in one big paragraph sucks.

Second, none of us ever really said {A}, {B}, {C}, and {D}. What we did say was that a utility uniform doesn't need to be starched, pressed, and creased to meet minimum appearance standards.

Third, consistency for consistency's sake is not usually a good thing. If there's a good reason that something must be 'just so', then it needs to be that way. But usually there's a margin of error that allows for reasonable uniformity without resorting to extreme measures.

[NIN]

Sorry NIN, I wasn't referring to you. I thought I quoted a post above you. I know you have been quite active through your many years and have been in places crappier than the forest in some backwoods state .

No worries. I get confused easily in my old age, these days...

"You whippersnappers! In my day we didn't use starch, we used sweat. Our own sweat! That's how we made our creases so good! And a hot rock! That was how we pressed 'em. And we really did use a hot Hershey bar before that Kiwi guy got his start..."

Two words: cotton sateen. Mmmmmmm.

[titanII]

"You whippersnappers! In my day we didn't use starch, we used sweat. Our own sweat! That's how we made our creases so good! And a hot rock! That was how we pressed 'em. And we really did use a hot Hershey bar before that Kiwi guy got his start..."

ROFL 

[AngelWings]

Well, all I can see in all of the replies pushing extremes. I hope CAP is never deployed to war, because clearly now we are somehow on the same level of our warriors. {A} And I wonder what wing has so much SAR action that they are always wearing their gear. I have had many great friends who have served in the military, friends in all branches, and they always had a presentable uniform when I saw them in uniform while not on deployed, whether it be a picture or me actually meeting them while they are in uniform. I seriously don't care if you iron your uniform or not, spit shine your boots or not, but I do expect that your  {B} uniform does not look like it was rolled out of a duffle bag, that {C} your boots at least are all one color of black, and that there are not so many threads you could rappel all of the 101st AA. Simply said, I do not ever see a happy medium between us. Some of us spend practically whole day on our BDU's while {D} others of us only spend 2 seconds throwing it in the wash or the dryer and not hanging it up when it is done drying. Another thing, there is the domino effect to a consistent leader. If all of the dominos fall, then you are proficent in all aspects of being a leader. You take out the uniform domino, it is going to be hard for the dominos to keep falling into place. It is also suggested under this theory that one domino can be missing but still work, but it is going to be noticable that it is missing because you have a gap in your dominos. I stress competence across the spectrum with my fellow cadets. I noticed in the replies that have popped up that there is a stressing of SAR. I am getting worried, is there a huge amount of missions happening that you guys are always out with your gear on?

First of all, please use your return/enter key a bit more often. Reading this stuff all in one big paragraph sucks.

Second, none of us ever really said {A}, {B}, {C}, and {D}. What we did say was that a utility uniform doesn't need to be starched, pressed, and creased to meet minimum appearance standards.

Third, consistency for consistency's sake is not usually a good thing. If there's a good reason that something must be 'just so', then it needs to be that way. But usually there's a margin of error that allows for reasonable uniformity without resorting to extreme measures.

Sorry, I was writing fast.
When people were writing their responses, they made it seem like the sloppier the better.

[lordmonar]

Sorry NIN, I wasn't referring to you. I thought I quoted a post above you. I know you have been quite active through your many years and have been in places crappier than the forest in some backwoods state .

No worries. I get confused easily in my old age, these days...

"You whippersnappers! In my day we didn't use starch, we used sweat. Our own sweat! That's how we made our creases so good! And a hot rock! That was how we pressed 'em. And we really did use a hot Hershey bar before that Kiwi guy got his start..."

Two words: cotton sateen. Mmmmmmm.

Hot Hershey bar..........Luxery!

In my day we had to get up 30 minutes before we got to bed, PT 14 hours, KP for 10 hours, marching up and down the parade ground for 12 hours, and then we polished our boots with a pieced of donkey droppings wrapped in a wet klenex....then the TI would shoot us just before we to bed.

And if try to tell that to young kids today.....they won't believe you!

(a tip o'the hat to Monty and his circuits).

[Basher]

Too bad we couldn't wear the DCU.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I probably have more time on the crapper on SARs than.... oh, nevermind.

"Hey, I saw you check into the mission, but where have you been all this time?"

[ol'fido]

Sorry NIN, I wasn't referring to you. I thought I quoted a post above you. I know you have been quite active through your many years and have been in places crappier than the forest in some backwoods state .

No worries. I get confused easily in my old age, these days...

"You whippersnappers! In my day we didn't use starch, we used sweat. Our own sweat! That's how we made our creases so good! And a hot rock! That was how we pressed 'em. And we really did use a hot Hershey bar before that Kiwi guy got his start..."

Two words: cotton sateen. Mmmmmmm.

You, Sir, are a steely-eyed Auxiliaryman of the Old School. :clap:

[shoresfinest]

Too bad we couldn't wear the DCU.

you stupid bro?

[abdsp51]

Too bad we couldn't wear the DCU.

you stupid bro?

Really?