Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[lordmonar]

Yes...the volunteer pardigm.....

So....we remove all rewards because some don't learn the ideal that the reward is the service.
So......why not advocate removing all rank and ribbons?
Becuase surely no one who truely understands the volunteer pardigm would need any of those.

Of course....those of us who understand people know with out some sort of reward system then we will have no volunteers.

I don't care why someone does the mission.  So long as they do it.  If they only do it once (Got the T-shirt, I'm out of here), I don't care.  That is one of the facts of life when dealing with volunteers.

So....looking just at NBB.......if the beret is the thing that is getting members to PAY for the privelage of working their butts off for two weeks......taking that away jepordizes the mission of NBB.
I don't care about the "lesson" being taught....that is the reward is the reason to do something.....I care about the mission getting done.

And again.....cadets or senior members who can't follow clear direction are a leadership problem.  And those problems did not come from spending two week in Wisconsin.

As 68W10 said.....if you are a wing/group director of something (encampment, SAREX, etc) you are certainly capable of defining and enforcing the UOD.  You know though....I don't really see a whole lot of that.  What I usually see here on CT is the Bling haters seeing someone outside of their normal zone of influence doing something "wrong" and getting attacked for it.

Little Johnny is just doing what he is told and following how he was trained.  Granted I agree with you that some squadorns are poorly trained and pass on that poor training to their members.  The correction for that, of course is to fire or retrain the squadron leaders....and that is Wing's/Group's job.

Once again....taking away the tool is not the way to correct misuse of that tool.

To Cyborg.....I apologise if I misinterpeted your inputs.

[NCRblues]

Oh man,

Ok, let me just say this and then I will bow out.

As a staff member of NBB for years, I can guarantee that every year, all cadet and SM staff are told to follow the local commanders orders. Several times they are informed that it is up to the local commander/wing commander about the wear of the beret. They are told again and again. They are also given a list of the sorties they participated on and the amount of finds they received and the ES quals they completed.

IF they go home to you all, and say that WE (meaning NBB staff) told them it was ok to wear the beret whenever/where ever than your cadet is lying to you.

If they claim they did not get that list, they are lying. The Director, assistant director, admin chief, chief tac and flight tac all check to make sure they have that paper.

If they come home and say they ANYTHING other than "they told us to follow local command" than they are lying to you. Even former national commanders where present when one (one of many) of these briefings was going on. NBB staff makes it clear that the beret is a privilege and not a right.

After they walk off our compound, they no longer fall under our chain of command, and they are back on your dime. Enforce the rules. If you don't like berets, than as a commander do not allow them to wear it. Simple. We (nbb staff) do everything we can to make sure the cadets do not return home with an "elitist" attitude". Some of them do, but that also applies to every NCSA and every encampment since CAP has started.

Once again, NBB staff makes sure the cadets know to follow local command.

[68w20]

While I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this.  Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge.  At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity.  This could and often does include the UOD.  All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication.  If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x".  At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.

Yes they did.  Yes, it is.  Didn't change anything about what I said.

It would seem to me that it does.  You're saying that an individual is more likely to try to "get away with" something at a non-unit activity.  Odds are that won't be a problem if it's made abundantly clear that what they may want to "get away with" won't fly.  Those individuals that still try to get away with wearing a Beret to a SAREX are few and far between, and not giving berets to first-time NBB attendees is not the answer to that problem.

[Eclipse]

So....we remove all rewards because some don't learn the ideal that the reward is the service.

No, but when problems are identified, you adjust the reward system accordingly.

So......why not advocate removing all rank and ribbons?

I like my trinkets as much as the next guy, but I believe I have, in fact advocated this exact thing on a number of occasions.  when I first joined
I was, like many, just as attracted by the shiny stuff as any new guy, but as I've grown in experience, I see that the ribbons and grade, especially
the way CAP has implemented them, can be as much of an impediment to our real missions as an advantage.

You're saying that an individual is more likely to try to "get away with" something at a non-unit activity.

That's exactly what I am saying, and I wish I could say it only applied to cadets, but I've had to deal with seniors on this kind of stuff as well.  It's not just berets - our members are infinitely creative when packing their gear - but absent 2 ambiguous, 6 year old sentences, these were not conversations we even needed to consider before.  One could also question why this was done at all.  Was NBB starving for people before the change?  No.
Have they been flooded with 3x's the applications then they need because of the change?  No.  So what's the real point here?

Unlike Lordmonar above, I do care why people show up to activities, especially cadets.   We're supposed to be teaching and emulating "service before self", not "Service when I get something cool and then can show off to everyone else".

[lordmonar]

Eclipse.....it is not SERVICE BEFORE SELF.....it is VOLUTEER SERVICE. 

Why we are here is not important (for the most part).  That you are here, that you follow the regulations, goals and core values are important.  That you follow through with what you say you are going to do.

As leaders in a volunteer organsiation we need to find, train and keep good people who give of themselve for their community, state and nation.  It is our job to find out what makes them ping and provide that for them.  For some it is the sense of a job well done, for some it is the nifty blue uniforms, for some it is the free flying, for some it is the salutes, berets, cords and other "useless" doo-dads.

It is our job to use all the tools properly to find, train and keep good people.

If someone's reasons for getting into CAP become a problem (say a salute troll) then you retrain or fire him.

You yourself said that initially you were attracted by the bling....but you grew out of it!   Congradulations they system works.
Granted not everyone learns that lesson.

But you have not learned the underlying lesson of how to use the tools.  You assume that because you are now as State A....everyone needs to be at State A.....even though it takes time to grow there.

You propose to take away one of the tools to get people to State A while at the same time getting the mission done.

The active military has learned this trick long ago...and they have and understand the pit falls that come with it. 

I have no doubt that cadets and seniors will try to game the system.  But let's be honest.  What is the ratio betweent he players and the good guys?

[Eclipse]

Thank you Ralph Lauren!  You've just done more to dispel the mythos of the beret then anything we could ever say here.

[ol'fido]

I can see the shooters from USAMU that are going to the games reaction...

"They want us to wear THAT!!? We would look like one of those cheesy OLD NAVY commercials! We're the ARMY."

[BillB]

And the berets are made in China

[Flying Pig]

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

[PHall]

And the berets are made in China

The whole friggin' "uniform" is made in China!

[Critical AOA]

Thank you Ralph Lauren!  You've just done more to dispel the mythos of the beret then anything we could ever say here.

LOL.  That is too funny.  And those uniforms are too freakin' ugly. Not to mention the Ralph Lauren logo on the front.  That is ridiculous.  Is this "Team Ralph"?

[mikebank]

Those photos look like something out of Starship Troopers.

[Eclipse]

Those photos look like something out of Starship Troopers.

Anyone reporting for a drop dressed like that would be thrown out an airlock.

[cpyahoo]

What tickles me is that at a wing staff meeting, they spent two hours talking about my beret in a picture.       

-SERIOUSLY???-

What with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???

[Eclipse]

What with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???

Which pretty much encapsulates the issue - uniforms are supposed to be standard identifiers, not a distraction.

The beret is an unnecessary distraction, generally because of the wearer and not the hat itself (present company exempted, of course).

[JeffDG]

What tickles me is that at a wing staff meeting, they spent two hours talking about my beret in a picture.       

-SERIOUSLY???-

What with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???

Not in the last year they haven't...that's as long as I've been attending TNWG staff meetings, and I'll tell you, other than the Wing/CC saying "If you want to wear the AF Uniform, be [darn]ed sure you do it right, end of discussion." I don't recall any discussions of uniforms.

[Grumpy]

The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...

I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)

Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.

Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show?    :angel:     Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.

[lordmonar]

The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...

I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)

Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.

Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show?    :angel:     Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.

Dude...that post was two years old!

[johnnyb47]

The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...

I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)

Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.

Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show?    :angel:     Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.

Dude...that post was two years old!

Well... in two more years someone else might have said it. better that he got to say it first.

[Grumpy]

😃😃