Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[Extremepredjudice]

Oh c'mon leave it unlocked so someone can necro it in 1-2 years

[SarDragon]

Oh c'mon leave it unlocked so someone can necro it in 1-2 years

Back in your box!

Calling in a Mike Strike...

[Salty]

When I was a cadet in SC in the early 90s, our Wing CC mandated that nobody was allowed to wear anything from Hawk Mountain or NBB.  I point blank asked him why during a meeting and he pretty much stated the same thing Eclipse did about the "us" vs. "them" mentality that became prevalent when those participants came back to the wing and home squadrons.

[flyboy53]

I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve. 

I've never heard that idea, how exactly would this work?

You've got to be kidding. We have a national board that approves uniform issues and a committee studying the uniforms. The simple process is that someone makes a recommendation and it goes before the board to be considered, rejected or approved. What is so difficult with that. A while ago, one of you had this whole assortment of proposed ES badges (that I thought were really cool, by the way), but that stuff never gets beyond a wing comamnder. Why? It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that someone was protecting this hat/head gear because of the impact it may have on attendance at the activity.

Certainly a beret is a distinctive type of headgear. However, you don't award berets for attending other types of national activiites. Why should NBB be any different? Ask this question, if the beret wasn't awarded would it have a bearing on who attended the activity. There's already a patch and a ribbon...or other ribbons...just like other national activities. Why is NBB so different?

We send kids to Space Camp and Aviation Challenge; two far more intensive activities than NBB. Yet, those kids or adults aren't allowed to wear the wings they earn on their uniforms. There also isn't an us vs them type of mentality amongst those graduates, so why is NBB and Hawk Mountain so special?

Would you award a beret to a cadet or senior member who supports a public airshow at a military base? We also send cadets to PJ and SP/SF orientations. I don't see those kids coming home with berets...

The solution is to give a beret to everyone who attends a national activity. That's fair. Otherwise, I don't really see a point in awarding it.

[Spaceman3750]

It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.

Not really. Those who want the badge will do the bare minimum to get it then never answer the phone again. Then you've tricked yourself into thinking you have more resources than you do and it all goes downhill from there.

[68w20]

I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve. 

I've never heard that idea, how exactly would this work?

You've got to be kidding. We have a national board that approves uniform issues and a committee studying the uniforms. The simple process is that someone makes a recommendation and it goes before the board to be considered, rejected or approved. What is so difficult with that. A while ago, one of you had this whole assortment of proposed ES badges (that I thought were really cool, by the way), but that stuff never gets beyond a wing comamnder. Why? It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that someone was protecting this hat/head gear because of the impact it may have on attendance at the activity.

Certainly a beret is a distinctive type of headgear. However, you don't award berets for attending other types of national activiites. Why should NBB be any different? Ask this question, if the beret wasn't awarded would it have a bearing on who attended the activity. There's already a patch and a ribbon...or other ribbons...just like other national activities. Why is NBB so different?

We send kids to Space Camp and Aviation Challenge; two far more intensive activities than NBB. Yet, those kids or adults aren't allowed to wear the wings they earn on their uniforms. There also isn't an us vs them type of mentality amongst those graduates, so why is NBB and Hawk Mountain so special?

Would you award a beret to a cadet or senior member who supports a public airshow at a military base? We also send cadets to PJ and SP/SF orientations. I don't see those kids coming home with berets...

The solution is to give a beret to everyone who attends a national activity. That's fair. Otherwise, I don't really see a point in awarding it.

I'm not kidding, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're talking about and would like to know more.  Before you respond I'd appreciate if you take a step back and read what I posted and what I'm writing here so that we can avoid another unnecessary misunderstanding.

I'm asking about what the badges would look like/where they would go/for what activities would they be awarded.  Surprisingly enough I do have a fairly good grasp on how changes to uniforms are proposed.  I'm not saying that what you're suggesting is absurd because it precludes me from wearing my fuzzy french hat, I'm asking you to talk about the program of which you say you are a proponent. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I was a cadet in SC in the early 90s, our Wing CC mandated that nobody was allowed to wear anything from Hawk Mountain or NBB.  I point blank asked him why during a meeting and he pretty much stated the same thing Eclipse did about the "us" vs. "them" mentality that became prevalent when those participants came back to the wing and home squadrons.

I have to say I am in sympathy with this Colonel in SC.

The "elitist" mentality has NO place in CAP, whether it's HM, NBB or flying club senior squadrons.

[lordmonar]

Really?

So anyone can wear General Stars?
Anyone can ignore the orders of those appointed over you?

CAP if full of "elitist" mentalities...Let's be careful about what terminology we use.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Sir, I didn't mean that and I think you know that.

The rank structure is something we have, and I don't consider a General any more "elitist" than an Airman Basic...the General just took a different path of service, one that led to officer rank and leadership.  And I certainly don't advocate disobeying orders.

What I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."

[Eclipse]

What I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."

Yep, or at least "us" and "them", which doesn't work in a volunteer paradigm.

Us and Them - Pink Floyd (Studio Version)

[lordmonar]

^^Sir, I didn't mean that and I think you know that.

The rank structure is something we have, and I don't consider a General any more "elitist" than an Airman Basic...the General just took a different path of service, one that led to officer rank and leadership.  And I certainly don't advocate disobeying orders.

What I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."

Like Lt Cols vs Majors?

But really I do understand what you are getting at and yes these cliques can cause problems.  But I think you are blowing the "problem" out of porpotion.

We use the the tool of special insigina as a tool to develope the esprit de corps of a unit.
By definition that is "elitist".

So to attack the NBB brotherhood and their bling on the basis of elitism....then you need to atttack the aircrew brotherhood and their elitism and the Lt Col brotherhood and their elitism.

What you really are saying is that there is elitism that you like and agree with and there is elitism that you don't like and don't agree with.

Okay.....I'll buy that.

I can take care of any elitist attitudes that come out of NBB with out taking away their beret.
Attacking their beret is NOT the way to go....because you INCREASE the amount of antagonism between US and THEM.

So, IMHO, IF you see a problem with this "elitism" then we need to communicate that up the chain to the NBB guys and have them make changes to their program.  If they don't, then as a commander simply stop letting your guys go...i.e. don't sign their CAPF31.

[Eclipse]

We use the the tool of special insigina as a tool to develope the esprit de corps of a unit.

Where?  Insignia are supposed to recognize accomplishment in a standardized way.  Respect for the experience of a top-heavy SAR ribbon is not the
same as considering that person "elite".  Any insignia that engenders "elitism" is doing it wrong.

History and experience show that the more "elite" a person actually is, the less inclined they are to worry that anyone else knows about it.
Ever notice that the more accomplished people become in CAP, the shorter their email signatures get?

[lordmonar]

Sorry.....BS.

The USAF uses the special hats and insignia to develope esprit de corps in their SF, PJ, Airborn Weather, Military Training Instructors, Technical Training Instructors, recruiters, military aids, SAF aids, WH aids, special units/asisgnements, JTACS.

When push comes to shove those are just AFSCs and just jobs.....why do any of them "deserve" a special hat or insignia?

In CAP we use cords for the CAC, we use cords for Honor Guard, Color Guards.....all elite ogranisaitons with in our larger organisation.  We use them as an incentive and for them to build unity and Esprit De Corps.

I also say BS on "history and experince" issue.
I point out the issue the Army went through when they gave everyone berets....the Rangers has a fecal matter fit until they got their own distinctive beret.
If you go to the PJ's or the Seals or Special Forces and suggest that you take away their berets and/or tirdents....you can rest assured that they will come unglued.

[Eclipse]

Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.

The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.

[lordmonar]

Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.

The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.

Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?

My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.

My point is and always has been.....don't take away the tools that work, just because they are abused elsewhere.

A carpenter is mis using his claw hammer.....you fire or retrain him....you don't ban hammers.

I also take issue with your use of the term "undeserved elitism".

What makes you an expert on what is deserved or undeserved?

Assuming that squadrons are properly getting authorisation for special insigia/hats/cords let the squadrons manage it.
If the practices of another squadron are interfering with the operations of you squadron use your chain of command to fix it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm trying to figure out where I said or advocated that blue berets should be banned.

In fact, I have proposed a blue-grey one as a dis*inc*ive optional headdress for the G/W combo.

[Eclipse]

Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.

The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.

Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?

My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.

For some reason you ignore that much of this issue happens at a scope greater than the units.  Members, especially cadets, for the most part will respect their unit CC's and staff, if for no other reason than familiarity, and many will try to "See what I can get away with..." at a SARex, training, encampments, etc. As a commander, at your local squadron you can pretty much do anything you want, which is where many of the problems start - either a unit commander doing whatever he wants, or not being involved enough to makes things stop.  Then those behaviors and issues manifest themselves at activities which have a greater scope than the local units.  I, for one, strongly believe that the unit is literally the "heart of CAP", however the evolution of the program has forced the reality that much of the things people join for occur outside the home units.

You often cite "My commander said it was OK." as an excuse for not knowing the regs or other mistakes members make, but more often than not, it's the excuse members use to do something they basically understand is a "no".    Pursuing it "with the chain" later doesn't necessarily fix the issues "today",
nor does it even guarantee that a unit CC will fix the issue.

I also take issue with your use of the term "undeserved elitism".
What makes you an expert on what is deserved or undeserved?

Expert? I didn't realize we need to be experts now to express an opinion, however in that regards I'd present my 10+ years of experience in dealing with this exact issue.

Members who pursue the outward accrotremonts as the mission instead of the reward - planning activities where the first discussion is the hat / patch / cord, or "what I can get".  Members who twist every nuance of 39-3 to try and find a way of justifying this or that ribbon before they've actually done anything in CAP.

And in the end, in many cases, it defeats the very purpose we are trying to foster - either because the inevitable comparisions are made between CAP service and military service (which helps neither side of the discussion), or because people are "rewarded" for things which aren't really all that "special", and then act like they are special.

We're not doing anyone a service, especially cadets, when we teach them that the reward is the point of the service, especially in a volulnteer paradigm.

[sardak]

We're not doing anyone a service, especially cadets, when we teach them that the reward is the point of the service, especially in a volulnteer paradigm.

:clap:  +1000  I'm dealing with this very issue on two different fronts at the wing level right now.

Mike

[68w20]

Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.

The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.

Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?

My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.

For some reason you ignore that much of this issue happens at a scope greater than the units.  Members, especially cadets, for the most part will respect their unit CC's and staff, if for no other reason than familiarity, and many will try to "See what I can get away with..." at a SARex, training, encampments, etc. As a commander, at your local squadron you can pretty much do anything you want, which is where many of the problems start - either a unit commander doing whatever he wants, or not being involved enough to makes things stop.  Then those behaviors and issues manifest themselves at activities which have a greater scope than the local units.  I, for one, strongly believe that the unit is literally the "heart of CAP", however the evolution of the program has forced the reality that much of the things people join for occur outside the home units.

You often cite "My commander said it was OK." as an excuse for not knowing the regs or other mistakes members make, but more often than not, it's the excuse members use to do something they basically understand is a "no".    Pursuing it "with the chain" later doesn't necessarily fix the issues "today",
nor does it even guarantee that a unit CC will fix the issue.

While I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this.  Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge.  At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity.  This could and often does include the UOD.  All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication.  If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x".  At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.

[Eclipse]

While I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this.  Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge.  At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity.  This could and often does include the UOD.  All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication.  If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x".  At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.

Yes they did.  Yes, it is.  Didn't change anything about what I said.