Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[Eclipse]

How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?

I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.

Can you expand your question?

Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"? 
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.

But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP.  And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.

And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.

[Rogovin]

How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?

I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.

Can you expand your question?

Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"? 
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.

But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP.  And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.

And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.

Maybe you could help us with that, Eclipse.

-Rogovin

[lordmonar]

How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?

I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.

Can you expand your question?

Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"? 
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.

But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP.  And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.

And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.

??
That's because people are taking photos of exhibits, aircraft, performances and other intresting stuff.
Go to the Star Trek convention....see how many photos have security in the back ground.
Go to the CES and see how many photos show the valet parkers.
Go to the Aviation Nation air show...and see how many phots show the janitors.

Your complaint is that CAP dose not get enough mention or press time when we are supporting someone else's event?
Not is not the way it works.
I heard the same complaints comming out of Katrina or 911.
You can not expect the "media" to focus on what YOU think is important to YOUR oganisation.
You can not expect your host or partner to spare some of its PR efforts your way.

Those sorts of things must actively be worked by YOUR OWN PR people.

[68w20]

How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?

I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.

Can you expand your question?

Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"? 
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.

But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP.  And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.

And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.

I think that the scope of Airventure also has an effect on it.  When you look at the sheer size of it compared to other airshows in the midwest, RFD Airfest, or Chicago Air and Water Show for example, it's no wonder that CAP is simply lost in the periphery.  We're talking about an event that takes place over a week involving thousands of aircraft and tens of thousands of people from all over the world.  Between NBB and WIWG's mission CAP sends at most 500 personnel to work Airventure, so I don't see it as being that big of a surprise that we have a difficulty being noticed.

[NCRblues]

Well a part is the sheer size of EAA Airventure.  Another part is the star power that it draws in. Who wants to look at a random 16 year old cadet looking for an ELT when they can watch/read about John Travolta flying in his 707 and walking around and shaking hands? Celebrities and aviation celebrities take up a massive amount of the EAA's PAO staff time.
   
Another part is funding. EAA Airventure is where the EAA makes their cold hard cash. Approximately 10,000 A/C, and about 250,000 visitors a day, plus camping and parking. All of them are paying to be there. CAP is not giving them a dime. Money talks plain and simple. EAA never focuses for very long on any of the volunteers. It's all about the people that pay, and I do not hold that against them at all.

Last and the largest part. The EAA holds grudges for an amazingly long time. There are ww2 pilots that attend every year that will not talk to other EAA sections because of some slight 40 years ago.

CAPs story begins in 2001. In 2001 the EAA asked NBB to provide manpower to set up tents, help old ladies walk around all day, help mark aircraft for refueling, help refuel golf carts and gators all day long. This request was on top of still marshalling all A/C using runway 9/27, providing warbirds flight line security and providing ES (securing accident scene, ELT hunts, missing persons search, lost or overdue A/C search ext). NBB simply did not have enough man power, and NHQ said our cadets can't do some of the things that EAA asked. NBB had to say no, we tried to explain that ES had to come first because it was an AF mission with mission number. They wanted nothing to do with that and ignored it. The EAA became angry and even irate that we would not help them. It took many years of hard work to dig ourselves out of that mess.

Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.

The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".

On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.

It was contemplated by the EAA to not ask us back. They did, but it took a lot of promises that nothing like that can ever happen again. Simply put, we are still digging out of this one.

Now I am sure someone on here will say that was years ago, or the EAA needs to get over it. But, put yourself in the EAA shoes. Would you be happy with CAP?

Even though it is only one picture in a small official video, it is a huge step for NBB and CAP. I hope this helps explain the lack of publicity from the EAA.

[cpyahoo]

Me personally, CAP needs to pull out of EAA.  We are NOT their personal slaves, something CAP hasn't quite figured out.  Back in 1999, we had a CAP-EAA liaison that couldn't figure out what "no" meant when it came to dealing with the EAA.  It was 105 degrees outside and the EAA and Young Eagles pulled their people off the line.  Not CAP!  "Yeah, we'll fill in for them!" 
     As for it being "Blue Beret", they just need to kank the whole beret deal.  It's nothing like it used to be!

[68w20]

Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.

The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".

On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.

I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience.  I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent.   I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described.  NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC.  We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request. 
*Edited for grammar

[NCRblues]

Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.

The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".

On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.

I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience.  I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent.   I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described.  NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC.  We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request. 
*Edited for grammar

I was on staff. Col. Granville was originally slotted as director. He was replaced by captain/major Shannon Juhl, but cadets where never informed, and neither was NHQ. HWSRN replaced 3 other staff positions at will during the activity. This is also the time that HWSRN showed up in a beret with a "maj com" badge in place of the St. Albans pin. Near the end no one knew who was in charge of anything. 2006 and the escapades that happened forced CAP to switch NBB to a IC command style system. Now each area of NBB (like logistics, TACs, Cooks, ES, Admin, PAO) all have "section chiefs" that are appointed in writing to NHQ by the director and names are provided to the EAA and FAA so they know who to talk and go to in case they need something.

The CQ log at the gate records (to this day) that HWSRN and Shannon Juhl left the compound every night together and Ms. Juhl would reappear at about 4am on most days. The situation got worse as the days went on and more than one staff member requested to leave and go home. One staff member did in fact leave 4 days early and filed an IG complaint against HWSRN and Shannon Juhl. About 6 months later that member resigned from CAP after the IG complaint when no where.

Not to sound rude to you, but every effort was made to keep the cadets away from the situation and to keep them motivated and happy with the activity. Nothing is worse than very low cadet moral at an all volunteer activity.

As to the singing, my flight was one of the flights told to ignore EAA orders and go ahead and sing. Unfortunate but all of this is true.

I did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.

[68w20]

Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.

The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".

On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.

I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience.  I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent.   I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described.  NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC.  We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request. 
*Edited for grammar

I was on staff. Col. Granville was originally slotted as director. He was replaced by captain/major Shannon Juhl, but cadets where never informed, and neither was NHQ. HWSRN replaced 3 other staff positions at will during the activity. This is also the time that HWSRN showed up in a beret with a "maj com" badge in place of the St. Albans pin. Near the end no one knew who was in charge of anything. 2006 and the escapades that happened forced CAP to switch NBB to a IC command style system. Now each area of NBB (like logistics, TACs, Cooks, ES, Admin, PAO) all have "section chiefs" that are appointed in writing to NHQ by the director and names are provided to the EAA and FAA so they know who to talk and go to in case they need something.

The CQ log at the gate records (to this day) that HWSRN and Shannon Juhl left the compound every night together and Ms. Juhl would reappear at about 4am on most days. The situation got worse as the days went on and more than one staff member requested to leave and go home. One staff member did in fact leave 4 days early and filed an IG complaint against HWSRN and Shannon Juhl. About 6 months later that member resigned from CAP after the IG complaint when no where.

Not to sound rude to you, but every effort was made to keep the cadets away from the situation and to keep them motivated and happy with the activity. Nothing is worse than very low cadet moral at an all volunteer activity.

As to the singing, my flight was one of the flights told to ignore EAA orders and go ahead and sing. Unfortunate but all of this is true.

I did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.

My apologies; again, it was not my intention to attack you or your impression of what happened.  I felt it was appropriate to question what you said based on my experience.  However it's clear that your involvement was significantly more, well, involved than my own.  To be honest, the Cadets guessed that there was something up.  If nothing else we were frustrated by the dramatics encouraged by HWSRN, specifically our Beret awarding ceremony that was held in the middle of the night.

[Eclipse]

I did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.

The unpleasantness aside, I think this pretty much sums up the external view of NBB as well - it's a big activity that CAP has a typically small(ish) role in - arguably that role is "important", but it is likely simply important that someone does it, not that CAP does it.  It would appear that our precense  at Airventure is far more important to us, than to the EAA.  Nothing wrong with that, either, but that doesn't raise us to the "partner status" we
contend internally.  We're much more prominently featured, and in some cases are the lead agency, in more local shows than we appear to be at Airventure.  That contention works against us, too, since there are plenty of current and former members of CAP in the EAA, and we all know how much
former members love to gripe about CAP, especially in situations like this.

The situation has evolved, and like many similar activities, the actions of disinterested third parties makes life even harder to stay on a straight track.  I spent ten years heading off people trying to "help" me as an encampment commander, so I get that.

To the GA community, it's Superbowl week, we get that, too, and considering the large number of members who are personally invested in GA, as well as CAP's role in GA-SAR, not to mention owning the largest private fleet of single-engine aircraft in the US, we belong there with a strong, national presence.

But at the end of the day, it's an airshow, a really big one, but it's an airshow.  Our regulations and policies don't allow members at Airventure to
do anything that isn't done at hundreds of other similar events across the country every year, and in many cases local squadrons provide more
overall support to smaller, similar activities over the course of a calendar year.  Airventure is an exercise in scale, not elite.

And that's the issue when we have to deal with attitude and "special" back at the home squadron.

For a lot of members, cadets especially, Airventure becomes their "thing".  Many will experience their first independent week of "sleep-away from mom"
in a paramilitary setting, and that is bound to set some tones when they get back, just the same as it does when cadets go to encampments, other NCSA's, or even missions and ES training.   It is the activity and the experience which sets them apart, not the hat, but we've allowed it to become about the hat.

Incentives are fine, participants already get coins, patches, ribbons, and badges, don't they?  But when you use a symbol which means something else to a lot of other people, especially in the testosterone-charged universe of a paramilitary organization, that's where your problems start, then they get worse when comparisons are drawn between the "A-Crowd" and the "Us-Crowd".  That doesn't negate the value of the activity for what it is, but it causes the rise in rehtoric from both sides.

The A-Crowd in this case are those in the military that actually earned a beret in the way it is meant to be earned (which isn't universally loved there, either).

The spice on top is adolescents who (already) "know everything" and are looking for any way to move to the head of any line they can, plus adults who, for some reason, act like adolescents, coupled with ambiguous guidance from national, and we are where we are.  It's my personal experience, echoed by others here and elsewhere, that members inclined to wear the beret to non-NBB activities are overly "interested" in letting everyone around them "know" how much they "know", and are disinclined to accept advice or criticism.  This despite the fact that they were "telling" people with years
of real-world experience in actual CAP missions outside the controlled environment of an airshow.

Previous to the 2006 Great Ambiguity^®, we still had to deal with the attitudes and occasional insubordination, but the hats, at least, stayed home.  Participants were able to show off their patches, coins, ribbons, often a new GT badge, but at least they weren't inclined to wreck photos, or cause other uniform-related disruptions.

The solution to this is simple, straightforward, and inexplicably absent.

Reverse the Great Ambiguity^®", add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum, and
move our relationship away from the typical "we're desperate to help" CAP posture.

"Great Ambiguity^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[lordmonar]

You guys keep going down that same stupid road.

I have never been to NBB....so I got no dog in this fight....but every time you start saying "why do you deserve a beret" you are going to lose your argument.

The me say some quick things.

a)  The real military does not really "earn" their beret.  Come on....let's be honest....USAF cops are a default career field (my apologies to all the SF guys out there, I know you work hard and spend a lot of time outside the wire).  They no more deserve a beret then anyone else.
b) The Army gives everyone berets.
c) Even Airborn and Rangers are not really that hard to get through....yes they hard and not everyone can do it....but so are some of the INTEL SCHOOLs and other technical schools.

What ever NBB gives out, does not limit a commander from telling said cadet or senior member to not wear it.
It's that simple.

"Cadet JustbackfromNBB nice beret, hope you had a good time...you will be wearing your squadron cap next week."
"But major they said......"
"My squadron, my rules......take it off".

Anyone cop me any attittude gets handled the same.  This goes for NBB, HGA, PJOC, HMRS, and encampment (which I have the most problems).

So.....sorry you had some bad experinces with NBB graduates, Sorry that you had some bad experinces at NBB.  Let's not make an us vs them argument over something thats all of 10 minutes to fix.

[NCRblues]

I am actually a multi NBB attendee (well a lot more than multi but... ) who is in favor of dropping the beret and changing the name of the activity to something like EAA Airventure support (or something along those lines). To be honest, I don't even know where my beret is.

Eclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.

"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"

What do you mean by this? The training is GTM, UDF, FLM for the cadets and GTL, UDF, FLS for the senior's and TACs. So, I guess I am not sure what you mean by this. Beret is a mission, it's not like HAWK where it is all training; we have an AF mission number for the 2nd week of the activity.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.

"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"

In-briefs, daily briefs, small-squad meetings,  and daily AARs, not to mention all the informal discussions and camp discussions that occur at these sorts of activities.  Those and any manuals or OI's given to the participants, senior and cadet, should stress the image issues and historical perception problems with an eye towards stressing that it is about the experience and not the hat.  Perhaps an after-activity message to all hands reminding them of their responsibilities to represent the activity with respect to their commanders and fellow members with an eye towards building participation.

You might also disavow the beret for a while and / or consider only issuing them and allowing wear by participants with multiple years, say 3-5.  That discourages the "once and doners" who are just in it for a lifetime pass to wear a hat, and would at least recognize those who truly contribute.

[Rogovin]

I would like i point out eclipse, we did have two or three briefings and history lessons with that particular lesson this past year (about the "place in the universe" thing).

Just saying.

-Rogovin

[lordmonar]

Eclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.

"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"

In-briefs, daily briefs, small-squad meetings,  and daily AARs, not to mention all the informal discussions and camp discussions that occur at these sorts of activities.  Those and any manuals or OI's given to the participants, senior and cadet, should stress the image issues and historical perception problems with an eye towards stressing that it is about the experience and not the hat.  Perhaps an after-activity message to all hands reminding them of their responsibilities to represent the activity with respect to their commanders and fellow members with an eye towards building participation.

You might also disavow the beret for a while and / or consider only issuing them and allowing wear by participants with multiple years, say 3-5.  That discourages the "once and doners" who are just in it for a lifetime pass to wear a hat, and would at least recognize those who truly contribute.

You know.....I don't think harping on the historical image issues is really any help.  Back in the 80's the BSA waterfront staff was preached to day and night about "back in the day the waterfront did this and that and the othere..." We new waterfront staff people all resented the attitude that we would be like those old guys from way back when.

IF.....and I say this for the sake of argument....IF there is an attitude problem with NBB/HM/HGA graduates....you address that to the staff and have them make the changes.  Break the cycle at the source.

But......and let's be clear on this......the beret is a stupid hat.....and taking away the hat does nothing with correcting bad attitudes and those practices that form them.  What it does is make those issues worse...because now the NBB staff would ramp up the US vs THEM attitudes and that will get transfered to the NBB attendees.

Like I said before.

You as a commander can ban the wear of the beret at your unit if you so feel.
You as a commander/leader can fix attitude problems at your level.

Unless you are a Group or higher commander don't worry about what is going on in other units....focus on your own.  If members of other units cause problems in your unit....use the chain to correct them.

If we follow these simple ideas....90% of our uniform issues will be taken care of.

[cpyahoo]

Can I stir the pot one more time?

I think we can get this going for a few more pages.  Heck!  Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!

[RogueLeader]

Can I stir the pot one more time?

I think we can get this going for a few more pages.  Heck!  Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!

No.

[cpyahoo]

*snapping my fingers*

Aaaawwww, dang!

[jeders]

Can I stir the pot one more time?

I think we can get this going for a few more pages.  Heck!  Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!

No. And unless you can get another 50 pages, no new record.

Tick-tock-tick-tock where's ole Mike with his big padlock?

[ol'fido]

U.S. Code, Title 10: Thou shalt not wear thy blue beanie without the blessing of thy unit commander. The cadet you met on the ride home after graduation may authorize its wear under certain circumstances none of which coincide with reality. Violation of this law is punishable by 20-30 licks about the head and shoulders with a wet squirrel.

Okay, it's not really U.S. Code but I figured that by now someone would have pulled out some obscure part of the code to prove a point that has no relation to the argument.

PYLON! MIKE! WHATEVAH?