Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[Rogovin]

The issues have nothing to do with AirVenture as an activity and everything to do with the behavior of the participants when they come back to their
home units, so the "you can't know" argument is irrelevant to the conversation.

Knowing the history of the activity doesn't really help the discussion, since the original scope and mission are far removed from what it has beome today,
even to the point of many of the long-time participants disavowing the current actity.

If anything, it tells the story about what happens when an activity starts as "something", based on the personal initiative of a small group of people,
time passes and things evolve, people move on, and at some point the identity and history of the activity is co-opted by another group with little
relation to the original planners and mission.

With all due respect sir, you are the definition of a hater.  Sorry.  Someone had to say it.  I don't know your motives, and quite frankly i don't care.  I am not the type to judge.    i have no idea what bad experiences you may have had with beret's, and i'd be willing to bet it wasn't pretty.  I know some of the cadets everyone describes as those who will not put the beret away when asked.  In fact, a good friend of mine lost a staff position just for ASKING if he could wear it at a meeting. 

It is people like you Eclipse, who don't realize that the majority of cadets who come out of NBB are perfectly willing to put the beret away when asked.  But i do realize there are the few who do whine.  And you make such a backlash and put ideas in the heads of people who have had no experiences with Berets.  And unfortunately, you give them the wrong image.

Beret is much better with the "elitist" attitude than it has been in recent years.  In fact, few know that NBB was almost completely cancelled.  It may have been mentioned in the NBB history link i posted, but it doesn't matter.  What people do not know is that it lost NCSA status in the 80's BECAUSE of the elitist attitude.  The activity almost died because of that.  But NBB realized that reform was needed.  They changed, and the elitist attitude you describe is LONG gone.

Any preconceptions you have, with all due respect, are outdated, and DEAD wrong.  If you started anew, and eliminated all preconceptions you may have about the NBB program, i guarantee that you will see it for what it truly is: a great activity with many wonderful participants.  But i speak as a member of that group, and as an advocate.  We do not need haters.  You do not need to hate.  And most importantly, you don't have to hate when there is utterly NO REASON.

Thank you.

-Rogovin

[Noble Six]

I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet.  Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family.  This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name.  It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable.  YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not.  Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I.  So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this. 

Remember above all else we are quiet professional.  Beret2Golf out

[shlebz]

I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet.  Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family.  This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name.  It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable.  YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not.  Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I.  So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this. 

Remember above all else we are quiet professional.  Beret2Golf out

my thoughts exactly...

[Rogovin]

I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet.  Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family.  This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name.  It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable.  YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not.  Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I.  So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this. 

Remember above all else we are quiet professional.  Beret2Golf out

Yessir.

-Rogovin

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Blue Beret, Hawk Mountain or whatever does not put a cadet on the same level as USAF Pararescue, Army Rangers, Navy SEALS, Marine Recon and whatever snake-eaters the Coast Guard has (?), as I'm sure one of those elite forces would be glad to remind you.

Some members on here have talked about having worn distinctive berets for Security Forces, Army Airborne, etc., no doubt well-earned.  My MTI was Security Police (that's what they called it back then) but he did not wear his beret - he wore his campaign hat.  After going back off MTI duty, no more campaign hat and back to his beret.

Neither can be worn in CAP, as we don't have Security Forces, Airborne or MTI's.

A former squadron of mine had a retired Army Drill Sergeant who came in as a CAP TSgt.  I remember we did some checking to see if he could wear a USAF MTI hat, but no dice - he hadn't been an AF MTI and he wasn't in an MTI duty slot, because CAP doesn't have them.

In various settings, I've encountered graduates of both Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret.  They are significant accomplishments, but there are two salient facts:

1. It does not entitle you to lord it over your fellow cadets.  ALL cadets belong to a "brotherhood/sisterhood" - CAP.
2. It does not entitle you to be disrespectful to senior CAP officers or NCO's.

[Rogovin]

It was never my intent to disrespect.  However, i find it slightly hypocritical that others disrespect me and my fellow berets in a similar manner.  All cadets are part of CAP, and only a small part of them are beret's.  I know that. 

All cadets are part of a brotherhood/sisterhood, but NBB is something else.  I realize it is not the military, but all the same, it is a family all its own.  It's the first true cadre of its kind i have ever been in, and that makes it special.  I don't like it when others accuse Beret's of being elitist, and whenever someone tries to defend the program and it's values, demean that person and the entire NBB program.

I just don't think it is right.

I never and will never meant/mean any disrespect.  I'm dearly sorry if i have to anyone here.

But please.  Argue with open minds, not negative preconceptions.

Let's all live by the core values, please.  Integrity, excellence, volunteer service, and respect. 

-Rogovin

[PHall]

I still have trouble seeing how attending a major airshow entitles you to wear a special uniform accessory and to cop a major 'tude.

And before you start, yes I have not attended Oshkosh as a CAP participant. But I have attended twice as a airshow participant.
So I do have a pretty good idea of what you guys do. One of the things a lot of participants do is watch you guys to see what will happen next...

[Rogovin]

Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude.  That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.

-Rogovin

[PHall]

Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude.  That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.

And as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does. 

It would not make sense for them to send cadets that cop attitudes, especially in that environment.  Many of the berets who attend do not return home with such attitudes.

I myself have not worn my beret in months.  I only get to wear it in BDU's at squadron meetings, depending on the occasion. But that does not matter.  What matters is the experience i took back to and shared with my unit.  I also was able to assist in a major mission for over a week.  I even spent six hours guarding the crash site of an F-16.

I'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat.  Just that.  A plain and simple piece of headgear.  What has a beret ever done to you to deserve such spite?  And to those of you who say the "elitist" attitude, remember this: that was the NBB of the past, not of the present. 

If you don't believe me, ask Maj Morris, or Lt. Col Peace, the assistant activity director and activity director, respectively.  I know Maj. Morris is on Captalk, but i do not know how often.  They will prove to you that they run a clean and wholesome activity.  And i remember them saying repeatedly about how and why NOT to act elitist, much for the reasons some of you mention. 

NBB is not about the attitude.  For all this "elitist" attitude talk bandied about, i have never seen a specific example of one time a Beret has caused an issue.  Everyone quotes the same generic stories.  So by all means, prove me wrong, but do it legitimately, don't just quote the herd.  I am open to all opinions, if you can sway me with logic. 

-Rogovin

I have seen a number of cadets come back from their "Wisconsin Vacation" with a 'tude. Which led to a total ban on all beret wear in California Wing for a number of years.
Some of your predessors have done you guys a major disservice. And you still have cadets come back from Blue Beret with a case of the 'tude.
Not many, just enough to ruin your guys rep.

[Rogovin]

But less and less have been coming back over recent years.  It's getting much better.

-Rogovin

[Eclipse]

There's a big difference between "disagreement" and "disrespect".  I'd be real curious what you find "disrespectful".

[Rogovin]

It's all just words on a page, Eclipse.



It's only disrespect when personal insult is involved.  This is an unofficial discussion forum.  We are SUPPOSED to disagree.

Although i must say, i was rather looking forward to a decent battle of wits.  If there is one thing you do well eclipse, it is logos.

-Rogovin

[Fubar]

I'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat.  Just that.  A plain and simple piece of headgear.

You appear to display an enormous amount of attachment to wearing a style of headgear that you describe as fairly meaningless.

Cadets (and in some cases senior members) who complete challenging NCSAs earn a ribbon and a patch. For some reason we have two activities that feel they deserve additional methods of displaying their participation. I don't agree with that. NBB is a great activity, just like the rest of the NCSAs.

The fact that cadets (and unfortunately many senior members) refer to themselves and fellow NBB participants as "berets" reveals, at least to me, how over-infatuated the participants are with the headgear.

And as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does.

If this is a shining example of our PR engine at work, then it is my opinion we have a lot of work to do in this area. Other than facebook postings by participants, one article on the EAA website about the non-NBB cadets working the airshow, and one article in the volunteer (that wasn't written by the NBB PR team), I didn't see anything that suggested the event had a large public affairs impact. I also don't think that's the primary mission of the activity and I wouldn't factor public affairs into the overall worth of the activity.

[cap235629]

Rogovin you make yourself look absolutely silly when you refer to yourself as a "beret".  You are a cadet in CAP who attended a NCSA.  Attendance at NBB entitles you to wear a "special" hat while there.  You have not become anything different than any other cadet.

As a matter of fact you insult those in the United States Army Special Forces by referring to yourself as a "beret" as this is a play on the term "Green Beret" a well earned nickname for some of the best soldiers in the world, a far cry from a cadet in CAP.

Grow up.

[flyboy53]

It's all just words on a page, Eclipse.



It's only disrespect when personal insult is involved.  This is an unofficial discussion forum.  We are SUPPOSED to disagree.

Although i must say, i was rather looking forward to a decent battle of wits.  If there is one thing you do well eclipse, it is logos.

-Rogovin

Sorry, but you're SOOOOO WRONG and your subtle attitude strikes at the heart of the problem. So, you went to an Air Show and you got all pumped up because NBB can be more intensive than an encampment. Great, glad you liked it, now come back down to Earth.

I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve. Do I advocate for a NBB blue beret, no and this is why. The attitude displayed by most of the graduates, whether they are Hawk Mountain or NBB, can destroy a unit once those individuals return to their home units; something that I've watched happen since I was a cadet in -- guess where -- the Pennsylvania Wing.

I know of a current CAP cadet who came back from his first NBB, sporting not just a beret but also a ground team leaders badge, a SAR Ribbon with a device and a find ribbon with devices and even an Army MP brassard. He even tore the lining out of his beret, saying that was the way it was done, when in my era of AF Security Forces, I would have been challenged for making a uniform item unservicable. You can imagine what that displayed attitude did for his unit. To this day -- and he attended in 2010 -- he has never complied with instructions and provided his unit commander with his documentation. It took the Group ES Officer to sit him down during a SAREX to try and get thing ironed out.

Instead of promoting leadership and team work, an air of resentment was stirred. Is that what you were taught at NBB...all that for just helping at an airshow.

Frankly, I'm more impressed with the grads who come back from NESA. So many that I've met have this quiet style of professionalism, some even come back with a deer-in-the-headlights look from what they've learned....and their insignia, with the exception of the patch and baseball cap, is standardized.

The point is that I'm glad you feel so much pride in your accomplishment -- you should -- but there comes a time when that is supposed to be mirrored from the inside to set an example and not a blue hat that is thrust down everyone's throats.

You need to get with the program and take it from an individual who once earned a blue beret in AF Security Forces. Sure, my beret represents a bond with very devoted family of quiet men and women who share a lot of pride for what they do, but I never needed that beret to prove who I was.

[arajca]

Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude.  That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.

What almost killed NBB was the attitudes of the folks coming out of it, not those of us afflicted with them.

And as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does. 

Why haven't we seen any PR about it?

It would not make sense for them to send cadets that cop attitudes, especially in that environment.  Many of the berets who attend do not return home with such attitudes.

But many do return home with attitudes.

I myself have not worn my beret in months.  I only get to wear it in BDU's at squadron meetings, depending on the occasion. But that does not matter.  What matters is the experience i took back to and shared with my unit.  I also was able to assist in a major mission for over a week.  I even spent six hours guarding the crash site of an F-16.

I'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat.  Just that.  A plain and simple piece of headgear.  What has a beret ever done to you to deserve such spite?  And to those of you who say the "elitist" attitude, remember this: that was the NBB of the past, not of the present.

So you had a good experience. The problem isn't the hat iteself. The problems are the folks wearing the hat. What has any NBB grad done to deserve such spite? Let's see...how about violating the wing commander's published directive that berets will NOT be worn in the wing. Telling cadets (and seniors) the wing commander DOESN"T HAVE THE AUTHORITY to ban berets in the wing. Then we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu, the response was yeah and why are you busting my chops over it? Oh, and these were in the last three years, not 20+ years ago when the SAME PROBLEMS EXISTED.

If you don't believe me, ask Maj Morris, or Lt. Col Peace, the assistant activity director and activity director, respectively.  I know Maj. Morris is on Captalk, but i do not know how often.  They will prove to you that they run a clean and wholesome activity.  And i remember them saying repeatedly about how and why NOT to act elitist, much for the reasons some of you mention. 

It really doesn't matter what they say. What matters is the results and, in my experience, they've been split 50/50. I've only had the (mis)fortune of dealing with 4 or 5 NBB grads in the past 10 years. To you, that may be an insignificant number, but when half had copped attitudes, it's significant.

NBB is not about the attitude.  For all this "elitist" attitude talk bandied about, i have never seen a specific example of one time a Beret has caused an issue.  Everyone quotes the same generic stories.  So by all means, prove me wrong, but do it legitimately, don't just quote the herd.  I am open to all opinions, if you can sway me with logic. 

-Rogovin

You asked, I gave.

[abdsp51]

.Good thing there are not more fellow defenders running around here. I know a ew who would be up in arms over this.

[lordmonar]

Then we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu

Read it again......39-1 does not say that.  The NB agenda where they authorised them for wear outside of NBB did say BDUs only and KB will tell you BDUs only....but 39-1 does not.

The argument that Cadets cop attitude about the beret when they return home is an easy fix.
The arugment that cadets argue with SM about their interpetation of the regulations/NB agendas/KB/What they were told at NBB is an easy fix.

Banning berets for eveyone across the board because of a, let's be honest, a few isolated cases of bad attitudes is NOT the answer.
Getting the real information into 39-1 or at least a ICL and enforcing it is.
I got no problem will pulling a stripe or a pip from someone who cops attitidue or wants to argue with me too much over my authority as a commander.  It fixes the problems real quick.

[EMT-83]

I think that the NBB 'tude could be eliminated by a conversation with the cadet before he runs off to Oshkosh to drink the Kool Aid.

We've only had one cadet attend in recent memory. Before he left, we talked about the beret. We asked him to bring it to a meeting upon his return, and do a little show-and-tell about the activity. And by the way, that's not authorized head gear afterwards.

Like a lot of things, setting expectations in advance can go a long way towards preventing issues down the road.

[68w20]

Then we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu

Read it again......39-1 does not say that.  The NB agenda where they authorised them for wear outside of NBB did say BDUs only and KB will tell you BDUs only....but 39-1 does not.

The argument that Cadets cop attitude about the beret when they return home is an easy fix.
The arugment that cadets argue with SM about their interpetation of the regulations/NB agendas/KB/What they were told at NBB is an easy fix.

Banning berets for eveyone across the board because of a, let's be honest, a few isolated cases of bad attitudes is NOT the answer.
Getting the real information into 39-1 or at least a ICL and enforcing it is.
I got no problem will pulling a stripe or a pip from someone who cops attitidue or wants to argue with me too much over my authority as a commander.  It fixes the problems real quick.

+1.  I attended twice as a Cadet and will be attending this summer as a TAC.  The majority of the former attendees that I've encountered thought it was an excellent activity that let them do some cool stuff and gave them a meaningful momento (the beret) that reminded them of the experience.  The individuals described above, demanding special treatment and wearing unearned blingage because of a summer camp they went to are few and far between.