Wearing you beret from NBB outside of NBB?

[Slim]

From time to time, some posts tend to imply that everyone that goes to this activity acts in the manner that you describe.  Those are the posts that I consider attacks.  I was clarifying a statement so that I did not react incorrectly to the post. 

I do not believe that every one is attacking the activity, but some of them do appear that way from time to time.

No harm done in this case.

I tend to think that the reason for this, is that most of us don't remember the cadet who came home from NBB, sewed the patch on his BDUs, and put his folded beret on a shelf.  The ones who talk to their fellow cadets about how cool it was to spend two weeks at the Valhalla of the aviation world, the planes they saw, the people they met, and all of the different facets of the activity.

While I know there are NBB grads out there who have done just that, I think we all tend to remember the ones who come home wearing their beret with their blues because someone told them they could. The ones who scream bloody murder when their squadron commander (or an activity commander) tells them that they can't wear it for reasons of uniformity, and threatens to complain to everyone and their brother, files IG complaints because you're harassing them, etc.  These are also the ones who say "I earned a beret" right away, when others ask them about the activity.

The same could be said for Hawk graduates as well.

Those are the graduates we all remember and talk about.  I'd take a hundred of the former over one of the latter, and I might even loosen my position and let them wear their berets.  Unfortunately, the reality is just the opposite, and we end up with 100 of the latter, and maybe one of the former.

[MICT1362]

Agreed that there are probably more cadets that don't listen than do.  But, I will tell you that they are that way when they show up.  I cannot count the number of times that we get a cadet from Billy Bob's Squadron who shows up, tries to tell the staff what to do, and tries to be an entire flight all by himself.  The C/Maj who can't take orders from a C/2d Lt who is returning for his second year simply because the C/Maj feels that he "deserves" to be in charge.  While doing staff interviews we sometimes wonder how cadets got approved to even attend the activity...

As TAC Officers, we do everything in our power to send them back better than we get them, but to be completely honest, some of them are helpless.  We could spend months with them and get nowhere.

Does earning a beret amplify this sense of entitlement? Maybe.  But, in most cases, so does a Ground Team Badge, a Life Saving Award, or a Meritorious Service Award.  There are those cadets that are humbled by fact that these are all awards that someone else feels they have earned and deserved.  But I know that there are plenty of cadets that just think they are a BA simply because they are who they are.

Cadets are going to be whomever they chose to be.  All we can do as Beret Staff, Squadron Staff, and Leaders is do our best to mold them into the cadets that we want them to be.  Some will take more work than others, some will work you to death.

-Paramedic

[Eclipse]

While I know there are NBB grads out there who have done just that, I think we all tend to remember the ones who come home wearing their beret with their blues because someone told them they could. The ones who scream bloody murder when their squadron commander (or an activity commander) tells them that they can't wear it for reasons of uniformity, and threatens to complain to everyone and their brother, files IG complaints because you're harassing them, etc.  These are also the ones who say "I earned a beret" right away, when others ask them about the activity.

This is specifically the problem.

Agreed that there are probably more cadets that don't listen than do.  But, I will tell you that they are that way when they show up.  I cannot count the number of times that we get a cadet from Billy Bob's Squadron who shows up, tries to tell the staff what to do, and tries to be an entire flight all by himself.  The C/Maj who can't take orders from a C/2d Lt who is returning for his second year simply because the C/Maj feels that he "deserves" to be in charge.  While doing staff interviews we sometimes wonder how cadets got approved to even attend the activity...

This is the root of the problem - cadets with an incorrect understanding of their place in the universe, and squadron leadership who either refuse to adjust that understanding, or worse, feed the attitude by rewarding bad behavior because that same behavior brings what they consider to be positive light on their unit (i.e. the end justifies the means).

Does earning a beret amplify this sense of entitlement? Maybe.  But, in most cases, so does a Ground Team Badge, a Life Saving Award, or a Meritorious Service Award.  There are those cadets that are humbled by fact that these are all awards that someone else feels they have earned and deserved.  But I know that there are plenty of cadets that just think they are a BA simply because they are who they are.

I would tend to agree, except that the other awards and badges do not have a controversial history, nor is there any dispute about
how and when they are worn.

Let me ask this?  Why do NBB people think the beret should be worn outside the activity?  What is so special about this NCSA that it deserves / requires such special attention?  Were it me at the head of the line, I would tell NHQ we don't want this sort of attention.

[ol'fido]

How hard would it be to have an outbrief where you tell the participants when and where they can where the beret(or whatever bling is associated with a particular activity?). Also, how hard would it be to send this info to the participants CC with documentation of their finds, sorties, etc. Don't send it home with the cadet but mail or e mail direct to the unit CC.

[SarDragon]

Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear.  Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.

Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?

[Eclipse]

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?

Point taken if you have an unusual service record, but for most of us, two years is simple math, etc.

[PHall]

Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear.  Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.

Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?

You can do it with a Personnel Authorization too.

[NCRblues]

How hard would it be to have an outbrief where you tell the participants when and where they can where the beret(or whatever bling is associated with a particular activity?). Also, how hard would it be to send this info to the participants CC with documentation of their finds, sorties, etc. Don't send it home with the cadet but mail or e mail direct to the unit CC.

It would be very hard to send the info out in the ways you described.
First by normal mail would take an amazing amount of time. We have a hard enough time with wings and units sending us cadets that do not have the pre reqs done, medication, authorization papers signed. Heck, some of them don't even remember to bring the ID cards and or socks, let alone a mailing list with their unit CC on it.

The command staff arrives DAYS before the basic cadets arrive to just meet with the EAA and other representatives to try and figure out the controlled disorder that occurs every Airventure. All staff members are overwhelmed with the amount of things that need to be accomplished, and each year the list grows longer. I don't think most of the staff got to sleep before midnight this past year.

second by email. Well, this one is a little better but again, we run into the problem of cadets not bringing the right email for the staff. There just is not enough time for the admin staff to look up each cadet and find the unit CC. It is a NCSA and a massive one at that. What happens if the email fails to reach the unit CC?

The easiest way would be to send your cadets, but sit them down a day or so before they leave and tell them what you expect of them. Not only up at NBB but also when they return. Inform the cadets that you know they get paperwork at the end of the activity, and that you want to see it ASAP when they return.

We (staff at nbb) only control the cadets for 2 weeks, you control them ALL the time, so make it clear to them what you want out of them.....

[a2capt]

Well, then- submit a cover all note for inclusion on eServices and then commencing with next years event, as part of the application process that goes out, add to it a note for the commander that signs the forms that this is what will be sent back with the  cadet. That way no one can bury and and buy a bunch of clasps and say "I get to wear these now". Likewise I'm sure it wouldn't be *that* hard to get a collection of the Wing wear policies for NCSA patches, covers, etc. Starting with the Beret, I do pretty much get the impression that "No. you can not wear it." As I have yet to hear of one actual document that says "it can be worn.. "

[ol'fido]

It just amazes me what the computer age is capable of. We have databases of dang near everything, but we can't put together a list of cadets attending one activity and figure out which squadrons they are from? Well, if we can't do that could we maybe find e mail adresses for the DCP in each wing and ask them to send it out to their SQCC lists? I realize that activity staffs are sometimes harried and overloaded having helped plan and run encampments before. But it seems like this would be "See Spot Run" information that should be on hand. Do 50-100(I don't have the attendence numbers) random cadets just show up the first day of the activity or are they inprocessed and critical or missing info identified and gotten from the cadet? Just want to know.

[MICT1362]

147ish cadets come in over three days, every cadet is thoroughly in processed.  This is like a 12 stage process.  Every attempt is made to get any missing info from cadets, but you would be amazed at how many SQ CC's or parents wont answer their phones... Odd.

TAC Officers are having to make runs to Wal-Mart for cadets virtually every night because they forgot toothpaste, pillows, socks, shampoo, soap, ponchos, rope, sunscreen, underwear, sunglasses, watches, combs, brushes, shower shoes, deodorant, and any other myriad of items you can think of.

And the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?

Again, as I said before, cadets are who they are and all we can do is work hard to try and change it.

-Paramedic

[Eclipse]

And the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?

Top picks?  By what metric - they apply, they go.

[NCRblues]

And the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?

Top picks?  By what metric - they apply, they go.

Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?

[HGjunkie]

Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?

Aren't those going to be required nation-wide sometime in the next few years? I know FLWG does them.

[Eclipse]

Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?

It's not like there is a huge waiting list...

[RADIOMAN015]

Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?

It's not like there is a huge waiting list...

The economy has been tough on many cadets' parents.  All of these activities do cost money to the parents and unless the squadron or some other grant can provide the monetary support, it just isn't in the relm for many cadets
RM

[Eclipse]

Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?

It's not like there is a huge waiting list...

The economy has been tough on many cadets' parents.  All of these activities do cost money to the parents and unless the squadron or some other grant can provide the monetary support, it just isn't in the relm for many cadets

The interest in NBB has been about the same in my wing for ten years, irrespective to the economy.

[SarDragon]

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?

Point taken if you have an unusual service record, but for most of us, two years is simple math, etc.

You didn't answer the question.

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?

There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that  Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?

To the best of my knowledge, all awards must have authorizing paperwork.

[added]

From CAPR 39-3:

19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a, Request for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have been completed. The CAP Form 2a is then forwarded by the unit commander to the appropriate approving authority. (If the unit commander has  been delegated approving authority by the wing commander as outlined in paragraph  7b, the unit commander simply approves the form and returns it to the recipient.) Upon approval, activity and service ribbons are purchased by the awarding unit or by the individual recipient, as appropriate.

[Eclipse]

You didn't answer the question.

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?

There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that  Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?

To the best of my knowledge, all awards must have authorizing paperwork.

I did answer the question - eservices doesn't even track decorations like that.
You join in Jan 2000, you can wear the Red Service in Jan 2002, attachments as necessary.
If for some reason the math isn't simple and you want more than eServices shows, then yes, by all means get a 2a.

Encampment credit shows up in eservices?  What do you need a 2a for?  Get the Wilson award in the mail?  Change your
rack, but don't expect a 2a for the ribbon.  Ditto for the leadership award, add stars when you get your specialty rating.

Real decorations will have a 120 and a certificate.  You need a 2a on top of that?

Anything not obvious or self-actualizing, fine - SAR ribbons, finds, CSR's, etc., CC's have enough to do without unnecessary paperwork.

[PHall]

You didn't answer the question.

How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?

There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that  Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?

To the best of my knowledge, all awards must have authorizing paperwork.

I did answer the question - eservices doesn't even track decorations like that.
You join in Jan 2000, you can wear the Red Service in Jan 2002, attachments as necessary.
If for some reason the math isn't simple and you want more than eServices shows, then yes, by all means get a 2a.

Encampment credit shows up in eservices?  What do you need a 2a for?  Get the Wilson award in the mail?  Change your
rack, but don't expect a 2a for the ribbon.  Ditto for the leadership award, add stars when you get your specialty rating.

Real decorations will have a 120 and a certificate.  You need a 2a on top of that?

Anything not obvious or self-actualizing, fine - SAR ribbons, finds, CSR's, etc., CC's have enough to do without unnecessary paperwork.

So how does the "awarding authority" approve or disapprove the Red Service Ribbon if you don't submit a Form 2a?
Because according to the 39-3, the Red Service Ribbon is awarded by the Wing Commander.
(This can be delegated to Group Commanders in Wings that have Groups.)