"Minority" majority

[RiverAux]

One of the themes that has popped up in another thread is that CAP members who either cannot or will not wear AF-style uniforms are second class members in some fashion and that those in AF-style are somehow keeping them down.  I really don't get how anyone can think this way. 

I think I can safely say that in my Wing, the majority of senior members do not wear AF-style uniforms.  Its not a strong majority, but at least 50-60% only wear corporate style uniforms, including most of the Wing leadership.  I'd take it even further and say that the majority of members wearing corporate uniforms are wearing civilian style (golf shirt) uniforms rather than any of the military style corporate uniforms.

In photos of CAP's national leaders and wing commanders from other states, it seems sort of obvious to me that most of them wear corporate uniforms as well. 

So, just who is keeping the "minority", which is most likely the majority, down? 

If anything, it is those that wear AF-style uniforms that should be worried that their choice is the one that is going to be taken away. 

[Short Field]

If anything, it is those that wear AF-style uniforms that should be worried that their choice is the one that is going to be taken away.

When you scrape away all the other rhetoric, I think that is you really have left in the discussions - a very real fear they are going to lose the ability to wear AF-style uniforms.  You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.   

[IceNine]

This is the same argument that society has on a regular basis.

The perceived "alpha male" is always a point of contention, because the "no longer a minority" is too ignorant of their situation to realize that NO ONE else cares, not even a little.

I have literally never heard any prior military speak poorly of non military types wearing "their" uniform unless they looked like a stuffed sausage doing it, or otherwise disgraced the meaning.

You will hear this same thing in every single controversial realm.  Politics, religion, race, creed, color, gender, pro-life, pro-choice, don't ask don't tell, same sex marriage, etc.

This may be a smaller instance but it is a reflection of civilization, not our garments.  I guarantee if we had to hunt for our food none of the above would even be topics of discussion.  Our advancement as a species accounts for our longer life span and our having too much time to consider irrelevant topics for discussion.  And all to fill the spare time.

[Eclipse]

So, just who is keeping the "minority", which is most likely the majority, down?

No one is keeping anyone "down", but there is clearly a difference in formal dress, and considering how important
paramilitary organizations view appearance, customs, and formality, to not see a difference is kidding yourself.

This discussion heated up when the CSU was disavowed without any real warning and in a year's time.  With two
years on the clock now, and with what appears to be some will and momentum to be reasonable regarding uniforms,
the situation of not having a military-style formal uniform is a non-issue today, and many of us are hopeful it will be rectified permanently.

But consider these photos:

You see no difference or issue here, especially in a paramilitary organization and considering the person in the blazer below is the highest ranking officer in the organization?


Who's the paramilitary commander in this photo?  Is that lady the cadet's mother or his commander? Hard to tell
from here.


Much easier to tell in this photo.

These are the specific situations my issue is with.  During missions and regular meetings and activities,
everybody pretty much dresses at least "similar", and there's little difference in the display of CAP badges
and bling, but during our most formal situations, ceremonies and activities which are the most likely to have family, parents, and outside dignitaries and members of the military, we reduce many of our members to a "civilian status", where everyone in the room wearing a blazer looks like a new member or a senator, regardless of achievement, grade or status.  Absent the CSU or "TBD", the blazer is the only way not to look like you forgot it was picture day during formal activities.

And before any of you start trotting out the "well, if all you're about is the bling, I have no sympathy for you..."
nonsense, those statements are neither true nor fair, and the same thing could be said for those in USAF-style
combinations with racks that continue over their shoulder.

Rank has its privileges, bling has its place, and no one should be less in a volunteer organization that asks as much of its members as CAP does.

[PHall]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

[Eclipse]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

I would not argue with that anymore than I'd argue with the reverse, but sadly many of those same people are the first to tell those
wearing distinctive combos that its "no big deal".

[flyguy06]

Is the blue polo shirt/grey sacks an official CAP uniform or is it a more recreational uniform?

[IceNine]

What does that even mean?

It's addressed in the official uniform publication from the organization, can't get more official than that.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Is the blue polo shirt/grey sacks an official CAP uniform or is it a more recreational uniform?

It is an official "CAP-distinctive" (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean anymore!) uniform.

There used to also be ultramarine and white polo shirts with the CAP crest screened-on, without the name/wings embroidery.

I remember asking a similar question after I first joined in 1993; could I wear one of those just to "hang out" in?  It was pointed out that since it is a uniform item, restrictions apply per 39-1.

I don't know when the above pictures were taken, but I would say that General Courter is perhaps trying to set an example of abiding by her own directives by no longer wearing the CSU and wearing the blazer/white shirt/grey slacks.

I can't speak for anyone else, but even though I personally dislike the uniform, I certainly do not, and never have, regarded anyone who wears the grey/white as a "second-class member."  My commander often wears that combination, and saves the AF blue for more formal occasions.

I can't necessarily say that if we lost the AF-type uniform that I'd leave, but I would strongly consider it if we lost that uniform with nothing to replace it except the current white/grey/polo combinations.

[Eclipse]

I don't know when the above pictures were taken, but I would say that General Courter is perhaps trying to set an example of abiding by her own directives by no longer wearing the CSU and wearing the blazer/white shirt/grey slacks.

Both photos predate this discussion by several years.  #1 is 2008, #2 is 2007.

[AirAux]

I think the current situation does a disservice to the senior members involved in a cadet or composite squadron that for whatever reason can't wear AF uniforms and have to wear CAP distinctive uniforms.  They don't even appear to belong to the units they are working with or in command of.. Here we have the young cadets and all we teach them about uniforms and customs and courtesies and then their chain of command ends in a gray/white or blazer combo.  Confusing and somewhat demeaning..  After all the squadron around the corner has the 24 year old trim and fit CO captain in AF style and we got the old fat major in the suit..  Yeah, that doesn't create a question of credibility to a 13 year old, now does it??  If the old fat major isn't good enough for the AF uniform why is he good enough for us (meaning the cadets)??  Most cadets aren't interested in the experience of the person, but with the appearance and the uniform makes a big difference..

[RogueLeader]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

To some, taking the AF style uniform is symbolically taking away the tradition and the visibile association to the AF.  That is telling the members that where we came from does not matter, or is not relevant anymore.  For some of us, those things are important,; important enough to make the stand in something that we believe in.

[Strick]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

To some, taking the AF style uniform is symbolically taking away the tradition and the visibile association to the AF.  That is telling the members that where we came from does not matter, or is not relevant anymore.  For some of us, those things are important,; important enough to make the stand in something that we believe in.


+1 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[N Harmon]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

To some, taking the AF style uniform is symbolically taking away the tradition and the visibile association to the AF.  That is telling the members that where we came from does not matter, or is not relevant anymore.  For some of us, those things are important,; important enough to make the stand in something that we believe in.

I do not wear the AF style uniform because I do not meet height/weight standards, however I think those uniforms are important to our organization's history and place in our country. I would be quite taken aback if they were eliminated from our organization.

[lordmonar]

You will also hear some members vehemently state that if they can't wear  the AF-style uniform, they would quit CAP.

To whom we say "Good by and good riddance." 

To some, taking the AF style uniform is symbolically taking away the tradition and the visibile association to the AF.  That is telling the members that where we came from does not matter, or is not relevant anymore.  For some of us, those things are important,; important enough to make the stand in something that we believe in.

That is the attitude that makes those who must wear corporate uniforms feel like second class citezens.  The fat and fuzzies have no choice and no matter what their personal feelings are...the are forced into the alternate uniforms.  Those of us who meet AF standards have the choice to wear what we want.  We then spout about "loosing our traditions" when someone suggest that we all wear the altenate uniforms.

[lordmonar]

I do not wear the AF style uniform because I do not meet height/weight standards, however I think those uniforms are important to our organization's history and place in our country. I would be quite taken aback if they were eliminated from our organization.

We will never eliminate them for our organisation.....the cadets will still wear them.

Secondly traditions are well and good.....but IMHO organisational unity and organisational identity are more important then holding on to the organisation's history through uniforms.

I mean we can take this idea to the absurd extream and go back to the WWII USAAF uniforms with the red epaulets. 

[AirAux]

And you think the cadets don't think less of those not in AF uniforms??  After all if the AF doesn't respect them, why should anybody??  PIRIAH...  (I am sure I misspelled that, but you get the drift)..

[N Harmon]

We will never eliminate them for our organisation.....the cadets will still wear them.

Secondly traditions are well and good.....but IMHO organisational unity and organisational identity are more important then holding on to the organisation's history through uniforms.

I mean we can take this idea to the absurd extream and go back to the WWII USAAF uniforms with the red epaulets.

I see no problems with organizational unity and identify, except on captalk.net.     

[Ned]

Folks, as long as you collectively want to keep picking at this wound, let me suggest that whether cadets think more or less of seniors in AF-style vs corporate uniforms is probably not a very useful measure to help decide the issue.

Cadets are adolescents - essentially by definition they will have strong opinions about their senior members.  While we all hope that cadets form their impressions about their adult leaders and mentors based on careful study of their behaviors, relevent experience and education, and demonstrated performance in leadership roles, sadly young people often form lasting first impressions based on superfical details.  And the opinions of their peers are often more important than their direct observations.

IOW, we should not make uniform decisions based on popularity polls among teenagers.  That way lies madness.  We would all wind up dressing like Lady Gaga or the Jonas Brothers.

WIWAC, to my eternal shame, I had very strong opinions about my senior members.  (At the time, even larger seniors wore USAF-style uniforms.)  And many of my opinions were not based on a careful study of the senior member's performance.  I admit that I "judged some books by their covers."

It was wrong, of course, and there are some officers to whom I owe amends.

I guess my point is that whatever judgments I made, I did not make them based on the uniform that the senior wore, but the way the wore it and how they looked in general.  So, the "cadet impression" metric will not change whether we have one or two uniform types.

[AirAux]

Then, why are we so concerned with keeping the AF style uniform in the cadet program??  If it's not improtant, why not have our own uniform like the Boy Scouts??  If the cadet program revolves around the AF uniform then their leaders should be allowed to wear same.  If you think the cadet program will not survive without the AF uniform then you should be able to understand the point of this argument..