A Commission?

[MIKE]

This is deverting.  Fair warning.

[Eclipse]

This is diverting.  Fair warning.

Agreed to a certain extent, except that a lot of members really believe a commission would enable them to force volunteers to do something they otherwise do not want to. 

Um, no.  If you're a volunteer, you don't >have< to do anything, and the powers that be are going to be reluctant to terminate membership, barring additional circumstances, for that reason.  Make CAP "less volunteer", and you are changing the scope and nature of the organization beyond which this thread can cover.

There's also people walking into typical bad-argument territory wherein in the exception would define the rule.

[Hawk200]

I really don't see a commision for CAP officers. I like the officer rank, but I don't need to be a commissioned CAP officer to get my job done in this organization.

How it is now works fine, I do my job, and probably the only time my "officer authority" really carries any weight is with cadets. At those times, I'm really only concerned with safety issues or inappropriate behaviour. Any issue with any member (officer or cadet) that would require me to deal with it by force of law (which I refer to the authority of the commision, not any police authority) would probably result in the problem member being terminated anyway. A person may make a choice that could result in their termination, it shouldn't lead to other extensive issues for the person that gave the order.

A commision would substantially change how our command structure works. If we went to commisions we would probably need our own version of the UCMJ to deal with disobedience to orders. In the military, if someone disobeys an order,  that could lead to an arrest of the individual. Do we really want to create such a system? It's really unnecessary, and would create some serious new hassles.

If we want an honorary type of commision, a piece of paper that looks pretty, why not get it from the Air Force? It would go a long way to the Air Force recognizing our organization in general, and far less hassle than getting the President to sign them. It would also show any organization we deal with where the members' loyalty should lie.

[Short Field]

IIf you suit up to play, you play by the rules.  And the rules say that you don't get to determine your own batting order.

And which rule (or CAP Regulation) was broken when he says, "I don't feel good, I think I will just go home?"    IMSAFE?

CAP only has volunteers and no UCMJ.  2b action is for when members violate CAP regulations.  Leading volunteers to accomplish a mission takes a lot more leadership ability than needed in the RM to accomplish the same mission.    

[Short Field]

If we want an honorary type of commision, a piece of paper that looks pretty, why not get it from the Air Force?

Texas Wing has a nice promotion certifcate here:  http://www.texascadet.org/resources/miscresources/certificates/index.html

Another member has posted an even nicer one someplace on this website but I couldn't find it.

The amount of respect any certificate or commission will ever have will be directly porportional to the amount of effort that went into earning it.

[Eclipse]

A commission would substantially change how our command structure works. If we went to commissions we would probably need our own version of the UCMJ to deal with disobedience to orders. In the military, if someone disobeys an order,  that could lead to an arrest of the individual. Do we really want to create such a system? It's really unnecessary, and would create some serious new hassles.

Absolutely, and people forget that with legal authority comes legal responsibility - responsibility being something that many of our members shy away from.

Turn the high-decibel, 1/2 baked "directives" some of our "less proficient" members spew, which today just gets them in peer-pressured hot water, in to "orders" and it might be the issuer who is ultimately arrested.

You'd also need a reboot of the program for the same reasons an NCO structure will be hard to implement - existing members.

In fact, you may actually make things >worse< because we could wind up with the same issues the RealMilitary® has with new officers - authority without grade.

Today's CAP structure where the entirety of authority comes from command posting and not grade, means that no one without the word "Commander" on their business card has any implied authority (that people think they do is beside the point).

A non-commander Lt. Colonel is owed customs and courtesies, nothing more, and can't bring an activity or situation  to a halt based on his shoulder marks.  Not so in the RealMilitary®, where officers and NCO are legally bound to address situations that warrant intervention, with consequences when they don't.

And what about all those members who (truthfully or otherwise) say they aren't interested in the grade, only the activities - no one in the RealMilitary® is allowed to adopt that attitide, every one has some kind of grade on their shoulder or arm, and those who don't progress can generally stay in for a while, but are usually not given the choice slots and activities these members want.

For a commission to ever be more than a CAPTalk thread will require a full re-think of the program, including
a restructure of the grade including NCO's, and a workable idea what to do with existing members who are valued but don't want to play Army.

[RiverAux]

You folks are constantly confusing a little piece of paper (a Commission) with laws and rules associated with the military.  If the President signs a paper "commissioning" me as a Air Force Auxiliary officer that means exactly diddly squat unless a whole bunch of federal laws are changed.  If that is what you're shooting for, talk about that.   

[Dragoon]

My guess is that what folks are looking is some combination of 3 things.

1.  Real authority over other CAP members of lesser rank.

2.  Federal recognition and associated priviledges associated with an active commissioned officer of the same grade.

3.  Real federal status (job protection, base access, etc) the same as a national guardsman.



#1 would be nice, but would probably require a temporary grade structure (so that those stepping down the chain don't end up outranking their boss).  Anything else creates too many chiefs and not enough indians.

#2 ain't gonna happen.  Why would USAF (or the president) give us those priviledges?  What benefit is it to them?

#3 is most likely, but would probably take a friend in Congress to push through.

[Eclipse]

My guess is that what folks are looking is some combination of 3 things.

1.  Real authority over other CAP members of lesser rank.

2.  Federal recognition and associated priviledges associated with an active commissioned officer of the same grade.

3.  Real federal status (job protection, base access, etc) the same as a national guardsman.



#1 would be nice, but would probably require a temporary grade structure (so that those stepping down the chain don't end up outranking their boss).  Anything else creates too many chiefs and not enough indians.

#2 ain't gonna happen.  Why would USAF (or the president) give us those privileges?  What benefit is it to them?

#3 is most likely, but would probably take a friend in Congress to push through.

I agree on #1 & 2, and the better effort for #3 is to work on a state level, where it is already happening for some Wings.

[MIKE]

It works fine in the UK.

[SAR-EMT1]

If we want an honorary type of commision, a piece of paper that looks pretty, why not get it from the Air Force? It would go a long way to the Air Force recognizing our organization in general, and far less hassle than getting the President to sign them. It would also show any organization we deal with where the members' loyalty should lie.

This would be a great thing.

Dragoon, I am personally talking about seeing # 3 become a reality. Along with a piece of paper - Commission or Warrant- from the Air Force making it official. Or to look at it another way, a piece of paper by which we officially become CAP Officers and/or NCO's. As it stands the only real piece of evidence of this is our ID card.

Eclipse a Commission or Warrant does not in and of itself give one command authority. Thats not what this is about. This is about being recognized as
Air Force Auxiliary (CAP) Officers.  A nice piece of paper to hang on the wall, and -if possible- job protection to go with it.

The idea is two fold: 
1with a piece of paper commissioning or warranting us as officers in the USAF Aux we CAP  would easily fall under the Guard and Reserve Act giving folks from every state universal job protection
2 It would look nice on the wall and be a step in the direction of the Air Force recognizing us for our work.

NOTE: this would not give us automatic authority over Active duty types. It should not interfer with any "RM" members commission or status - As it carries no weight outside of CAP-  And finally it would NOT give a ranking officer automatic control over someone of lesser rank.

This si a piece of paper saying Lt Jon Doe is an Officer in the USAF Auxilliary, and status as such just might get us job protection.

[Flying Pig]

Job protection?  Protection from what?  Are you seriously suggesting that CAP members should be allowed to take time off of their civilian jobs to do CAP work and be afforded the same protections as Resevists who are activated?

What you are talking about is making CAP the National Guard.  You all want the titles and the pretty wall hangings along with the privilages but without the responsibility or the sacrafice.  Are you ready to deploy like the Guard?  OK, so how much am I going to be paid?  Do I get the GI Bill or student loan repayment?  You will never have the same status or be looked at equally by the people you are trying to be equal with.  You want a piece of paper that carries no weight?  Then print one up yourself if it doesnt mean anything.

by SAR-EMT
#2 It would look nice on the wall and be a step in the direction of the Air Force recognizing us for our work.


There you go folks, this is the center of your argument.  That has got to be one of the most childish statements I have read in a long time.  Is this really about having a plaque?

SAR EMT....what branch of the military were you in and how long did you serve?

[Hawk200]

Job protection?  Protection from what?  Are you seriously suggesting that CAP members should be allowed to take time off of their civilian jobs to do CAP work and be afforded the same protections as Resevists who are activated?

Why shouldn't we have job protection? I wouldn't mind being able to go to a mission, and not having to worry about whether or not I've been asking for too much time off work. Don't really know about any and all other benefits, but I certainly don't see a problem with job protection.

What you are talking about is making CAP the National Guard.  You all want the titles and the pretty wall hangings along with the privilages but without the responsibility or the sacrafice.  Are you ready to deploy like the Guard?  OK, so how much am I going to be paid?  Do I get the GI Bill or student loan repayment?  You will never have the same status or be looked at equally by the people you are trying to be equal with...

No one is talking about GI Bill or loan repayment, just a little piece of mind when they go out on a mission. It doesn't matter that we don't get paid, it's still a service to the community.

by SAR-EMT
#2 It would look nice on the wall and be a step in the direction of the Air Force recognizing us for our work.


There you go folks, this is the center of your argument.  That has got to be one of the most childish statements I have read in a long time.  Is this really about having a plaque?

Nobody mentioned a plaque, let's not blow it out of proportion. Military personnel get things related to their enlistment all the time. Most personnel decs in the military have an accompanying certificate with the individuals name on it. I don't know what military officers get, but I imagine it's something. There are people in CAP that would just like to have something to show other than an ID card. What's so hard about a piece of paper?

SAR EMT....what branch of the military were you in and how long did you serve?

How is that even relevant to the discussion at hand? Military service does not mean a person is a perfect slot in  for CAP. It may help in some circumstances, but both a person new to the military, and a person new to CAP have to grow into those programs. And even one that comes to the other still has a transition to make.

[Flying Pig]

We shouldnt have job protection because we are a volunteer organization and dont have nearly the stresses a deployed military member is subject to.  You can quite and go home, they cant.  Again, you want the same protections and perks of  a military member without the work and sacrafice of being in the military.

With this discussion, it is very relevant whether someone served in the military.  There are people who never served who are wanting to turn CAP into the National Guard and have no idea what they are talking about.  They want commissions and NCO's and pieces of paper to hang on the wall and say themselves that these certs will mean nothing.  What else do you want other than an ID card?  I mean really?  What else is it that will make you feel better about your service to CAP?  It makes me question why some of you are here?  Is it really for certificates and someone telling you that you did a good job?

What you guys are proposing IS the National Guard.  Plaques were mentioned.  Hawk said himself in his post that he wanted "a nice piece of paper to hang on the wall".  If you want certificates, CAP has plenty of certs.  The Air Force is in a war.  It isnt up to them to pat us on the back. If you want that, walk down the recruiter and sign up.  If your now to old,  sorry you missed the boat.

[Eclipse]

Job protection?  Protection from what?  Are you seriously suggesting that CAP members should be allowed to take time off of their civilian jobs to do CAP work and be afforded the same protections as Reservists who are activated?

Yes - especially since I still have to lose wages or use vacation time to go.  This is far from unreasonable.  Common sense would tell you we are not talking about unit meetings or even scheduled bivouacs, but emergency's like Columbia, Katrina, and Fossett.

We shouldn't have job protection because we are a volunteer organization and don't have nearly the stresses a deployed military member is subject to.  You can quite and go home, they cant.  Again, you want the same protections and perks of  a military member without the work and sacrifice of being in the military.

On a 2am ELT, yes, deployed to  MS for a week+ on 24 hours notice, no. In some cases we have MORE stress because it >COSTS< us money to "help".

And BTW - Iowa and several other states already have job protection under emergency circumstances for CAP people - either as a direct reference in a state law, or as a generic reference to "volunteer emergency works during a declared state of emergency."

[Hawk200]

We shouldnt have job protection because we are a volunteer organization and dont have nearly the stresses a deployed military member is subject to.  You can quite and go home, they cant.  Again, you want the same protections and perks of  a military member without the work and sacrafice of being in the military.

I'm not advocating that, just simple job protection. I don't think someone should have to make a choice between quitting their job and going on a mission. You are the only one talking about additional benefits, I don't think anyone else has mentioned those.

With this discussion, it is very relevant whether someone served in the military.  There are people who never served who are wanting to turn CAP into the National Guard and have no idea what they are talking about.  They want commissions and NCO's and pieces of paper to hang on the wall and say themselves that these certs will mean nothing.  What else do you want other than an ID card?  I mean really?  What else is it that will make you feel better about your service to CAP?  It makes me question why some of you are here?  Is it really for certificates and someone telling you that you did a good job?

There are people that want to be told that they've done a good job. There's nothing wrong with it.

Something one commander of mine told me is that those little decs and pieces of bling are the only pay that CAP personnel get. It took me a while to understand that because I'm used to the military where I do get paid. I tell people that they do a good job when they do. It's one of those things that helps in a volunteer organization.

What you guys are proposing IS the National Guard.  Plaques were mentioned.  Hawk said himself in his post that he wanted "a nice piece of paper to hang on the wall". 

No one is proposing turning CAP into the Guard. It won't work, and most logical thinkers here know it won't work. You seem to be the one stuck on this.

Second, you need to reread my post. I didn't say I wanted a "nice piece of paper to hang on the wall", I said "There are people in CAP that would just like to have something to show other than an ID card. What's so hard about a piece of paper?" I was pointing out that some people would like recognition, and that a piece of paper is not really all that difficult a thing. Personally, I don't need one to do what I need to.

Please, pay attention to the posts. I'll accept that you were mistaken, so no issues. But please make sure you reference properly. I don't want to get hammered for something I didn't actually say.

[Flying Pig]

I never said that you said it.....SAR EMT did, thats why I quoted him. So Ill accept that you were mistaken.
-----------------------

Added later
OK...I re read it....I inserted "Hawk" when it should have been SAR EMT.  My mistake.

[JohnKachenmeister]

IIf you suit up to play, you play by the rules.  And the rules say that you don't get to determine your own batting order.

And which rule (or CAP Regulation) was broken when he says, "I don't feel good, I think I will just go home?"    IMSAFE?

CAP only has volunteers and no UCMJ.  2b action is for when members violate CAP regulations.  Leading volunteers to accomplish a mission takes a lot more leadership ability than needed in the RM to accomplish the same mission.    

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

[Eclipse]

OK, so you are telling me that the guy feels OK if he is assigned to fly, but he's sick if he's assigned to some mission on the ground?  I don't buy it.

Buy it or not, this is the world in which we live....

[Short Field]

[Yes - especially since I still have to lose wages or use vacation time to go.  ....

It is still optional and your choice.  And what about us poor self-employed folks?  Even the self-employed Reserve and National Guard folks got no help as they watch their businesses go down the drain while they were deployed.

... On a 2am ELT, yes, deployed to  MS for a week+ on 24 hours notice, no. In some cases we have MORE stress because it >COSTS< us money to "help". ....

Sorry, no comparison.  And PLEASE, don't even try to compare the stress of losing money if you decide to volunteer to help to the stress that a short-notice deployment has on a service member.  I saw too many families fall apart because one member was deployed too much.   Or the stress of dual military families where the spouses either both get deployed at once or take turns being deployed.  No comparison so don't go there.

And BTW - Iowa and several other states already have job protection under emergency circumstances for CAP people

Super idea and something we need to work on for other states to adopt as well.

As a former Red Cross volunteer, we in the CAP get a lot more benefits, plus get to wear neat uniforms with military style rank and earn ribbons that are also sold as medals (WOW, just earned a Red Service Ribbon but it is really a Medal!!).  All they get is a Red Cross windbreaker, T-shirt, or polo shirt - which they have to buy.  In the Red Cross, middle of the night call-outs for house fires were routine and you were always training and preparing for the big disaster - with a short-notice deployment.  They also miss out on the rank thing - except these really low payed full time employees could always boss you around.  All they get is the satisfaction of helping others.  All things considered, CAP members really have it good.

Besides, I would be really surprised if your neighbors, co-workers, or patons at the local Wal-Mart can tell you don't have a "Commission" - unless they are RM.  And if you don't do what it takes to earn one in the RM, they still will not believe you have a "Real Commission".