Active Member or Inactive Member?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Our unit has a member that is taking all online courses, renewing, and keeping himself safety current. We do not know who he is, nor has he responded to repeated requests from the commander to attend meetings. His phone is disconnected, letters are returned.

Our new commander wants to transfer him to the "ghost squadron." At this time I am kind of agreeing with him but want to hear other opinions.

What do you feel?

I tried finding these threads but was not able to find the right keywords.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

He's keeping up with our required training and paying dues. He is obviously interested in keeping his membership current and is not putting the squadron out of training compliance. Ideally he should have kept his contact information current in e-services. Considering his effort, I'd be hesitant to transfer him without actually making contact.

If his listed phone # is disconnected and he has moved, how exactly can he be failing to respond to requests he is not getting?

[Eclipse]

I would do it and not hesitate - that or put him in Patron status, depending on your wing's preference.
A member who never shows and has no current contact information is no asset to CAP except for his financial
contribution, which he can continue to make as a Patron.

Either one will most likely get his attention.  If he's anything like some of the ones I've had to deal with,
he'll call the person who was the commander the last time he showed up to a meeting and throw
a fit about not being appreciated.

He may well be participating in a single large activity, or just wandering around the wing doing whatever he pleases
and not feeling he needs to participate at his squadron.  If that's the case, you can suggest he transfer elsewhere.

[Angus]

I'd transfer him over to Patron, you've made a good faith effort to contact him and resolve the situation.  By not keeping his number and adress current in e-services he's showing that he doesn't want to participate. 

[lordmonar]

Ghost Squadron or 2B him

It is one thing to have some member you never see for one reason or another.....it is something completely different having a member you don't even know and your attempt to contact him keep getting kicked back.

Call your wing to see how they want to deal with it.

Disconected phone and returned mail are all red flags in books......don't sit on this one.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Our unit has a member that is taking all online courses, renewing, and keeping himself safety current. We do not know who he is...

How did he end up in the unit?

[Eclipse]

How did he end up in the unit?

His membership probably predates 80% of the current members. 

My group had units with membership numbers in the 120xxx's that no one in the unit had ever met, ever.

[starshippe]

   i would give him/her the benefit of the doubt unless driven otherwise by a fairly strong breeze.
   u never can tell, this member may have an extraordinary story to tell. he/she obviously wants to support the cap. if u don't want him/her, feel free to transfer him/her to our squadron.

bill
115313

[Critical AOA]

He is probably waiting to get paroled before he attends meetings.

[AirDX]

First, he's not hurting anything - you know he's "nondeployable" so he's not even on the table as an asset.  If he's keeping current with everything, why the big push to boot him... even 2B him?  For all you know he's deployed to Afghanistan, or is a 50 year member in a nursing home.  I'll echo the other guy above - if you don't want him, I'll take him.

[lordmonar]

First, he's not hurting anything - you know he's "nondeployable" so he's not even on the table as an asset.  If he's keeping current with everything, why the big push to boot him... even 2B him?  For all you know he's deployed to Afghanistan, or is a 50 year member in a nursing home.  I'll echo the other guy above - if you don't want him, I'll take him.

but who is he?

Sure maybe he is deployed, may be he is in a nursing home......all that is possible.......but if he will not respond to phone calls, e-mails and letters......it throws up red flags........Like I suggested before......follow up with wing and get some help...maybe they know who he is.  Maybe they have his correct address. 

Not knowing who these people are and the their back story....could be setting CAP up for a fall.

[Thrashed]

We have a few old timers that I've never met. They don't have computers. They don't attend meetings. They don't keep safety current (obviously). They are regular members, not patron or ghost squadron. It really hurts the safety stats. (I'm the safety officer).

We also have about 8 cadets who don't attend. Ever.

[AirDX]

Not knowing who these people are and the their back story....could be setting CAP up for a fall.

Now that argument I will buy.  Maybe he's a guest of the state somewhere.  It bears looking into - maybe his next of kin?   

[AirDX]

It really hurts the safety stats. (I'm the safety officer).

Safety stats are irrelevant.  All that counts is that the folks participating in functions are current. 

[flyboy53]

Our unit has a member that is taking all online courses, renewing, and keeping himself safety current. We do not know who he is, nor has he responded to repeated requests from the commander to attend meetings. His phone is disconnected, letters are returned.

Our new commander wants to transfer him to the "ghost squadron." At this time I am kind of agreeing with him but want to hear other opinions.

What do you feel?

I tried finding these threads but was not able to find the right keywords.

If he's up to date, leave him alone.

He doesn't really hurt your unit and you never know if he's there at the request of a higher headquarters.

Otherwise, have your unit commander contact NHQ to see if they have other contact informaiton or an address on him.

[jimmydeanno]

Ask around with the folks at Wing...isn't that where everyone goes when they outlive their usefulness?  (I keed, I keed).  But seriously, someone in another unit who has been around the block a few times may know where this person lives, or might have contact information for them.

If you have a name, and they're obviously older, they probably have a land line telephone that is listed in the phonebook (or online version).  That's usually good for an address and phone number.

Try facebook, a bunch of folks are on there to keep up with their kids, grandkids, etc.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, I'm not sure if transferring him to the ghost squadron solves any potential "security" issues.  However, if there is someone in the unit that is impossible to contact by phone or mail, I would probably want him out of the unit so that I'm not in any way responsible for him. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

it appears this is a former cadet who contacted the previous commander. She allowed him to be a "virtual member," she calls it. This member IS NOT deployed, is living IN THE STATE. Does not contact the unit, does not participate except to take classes or stay safety current. Why should he have the bene3fits others do?

[RADIOMAN015]

CAPR 39-2, paragraph 3, defines an "active" CAP senior member:

a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).


The senior member clearly doesn't meet the criteria for being active and likely should be transferred to patron status.

RM

         

[Thrashed]

It really hurts the safety stats. (I'm the safety officer).

Safety stats are irrelevant.  All that counts is that the folks participating in functions are current.

Understood, but my wing doesn't agree. They don't want chronic (never) current members on the active member list to go to patron or ghost. 

[jeders]

Why should he have the bene3fits others do?

He pays his dues and keeps current. How is he doing any more harm than the member who comes to meetings once every two months, doesn't stay safety current, and is never available for a mission?

At least this guy is staying current. If he talked to the previous commander, try and get contact info for him from the previous commander. Re-engage him or help him find a unit closer to him.

[Luis R. Ramos]

HOW do we contact this member?

He IGNORES calls and messages sent to him through TWO telephone contacts and email! His address of record is CITY/STATE/ZIP so he cannot be reached by mail. By the way, his CITY is the SAME city our squadron meets.

Our commander has already transferred all Patron members. He wants to do the same with those that do not come to meetings.

[EMT-83]

000, in a heartbeat. Being a member involves more than sending in a check; running a squadron means every member does their share. The elderly guy/gal in a nursing home is obviously different.

We had a guy that didn't show for almost two years. Just like he fell off the face of the earth, except he renewed his membership. He called to complain after being transferred to 000, and was invited to meet with the membership committee to discuss his status. Still haven't seen him, still don't miss him.

[jeders]

HOW do we contact this member?

He IGNORES calls and messages sent to him through TWO telephone contacts and email! His address of record is CITY/STATE/ZIP so he cannot be reached by mail. By the way, his CITY is the SAME city our squadron meets.

Our commander has already transferred all Patron members. He wants to do the same with those that do not come to meetings.

If you have access to the Personnel Info restricted app in eServices, you will have his actual street address. Failing that, you can get his last known address from National, or any number of places including paperwork that may be in his personnel file. Then just go knock on his door.

But if your commander really wants to transfer him, I know of several squadrons that will gladly take any safety current warm body that they can get. If for no other reason than to keep there charter.

[PHall]

Lets see, this member is current in all of the required training. And is current on their dues.
So how exactly is he hurting your unit?

[Eclipse]

But if your commander really wants to transfer him, I know of several squadrons that will gladly take any safety current warm body that they can get. If for no other reason than to keep there charter.

Any Charter which cannot be sustained without "shopping zeros" should be retired.

Any Commander caught "shopping zeros" should be relieved immediately and the charter considered for retirement.

[flyboy53]

HOW do we contact this member?

He IGNORES calls and messages sent to him through TWO telephone contacts and email! His address of record is CITY/STATE/ZIP so he cannot be reached by mail. By the way, his CITY is the SAME city our squadron meets.

Our commander has already transferred all Patron members. He wants to do the same with those that do not come to meetings.

I don't understand all the hype about moving an individual to patron status when the individual maintains membership and remains current. This is clearly an issue between the current and former commanders -- not you -- and you shouldn't be debating it in this forum when your current commander only has to pick up the phone, so to say, and get input from the former commander who put the member there or higher headquarters.

Afterall, we've only herd your comments, not your commander's. Even then, your commander only has to seek the advice of those commanders up the food chain. Maybe some other unit would be more than happy to have this person, and then where are you?

Respect the individual's privacy and leave him or her alone; or are you on some sort of a witch hunt to make a point? I just don't understand what's the big deal.

If you have an issue with it, then become the unit commander, take action and then take responsibility for your decision.

[Critical AOA]

Flyer333555, There could be all sorts of reasons why someone might do his or her best to stay current but not attend meetings and I realize that my words might be a bit repetitious of what others have written.

Maybe they are very ill and must stay at home but have the hope that they will regain their health and be able to resume their prior activities.

Maybe their work schedule is such that they cannot attend the meetings.  It might come as a surprise to some but not everyone works M-F dayshift banker's hours.  I attend far less meetings and activities than I would like for this very reason.  Perhaps I should be forced out??

Maybe he is a single dad with very young children and finds it impossible to get out and do things.

Since he was a former cadet, maybe he is at college in another state or in the military and the address you have on file is that of his parents.

There are probably dozens of other reasons as well but the fact is that this person obviously likes CAP and wants to remain involved at some level.  He is paying his dues and taking courses.  No small thing for many folks.

I must ask however, what is your stake in this issue?  What position do you hold in the unit that has put you on this mission that you are on to dig into this member's business?

I do agree that he should be more forthcoming (if possible) and that the current commander should be able to know his status / situation.  You did write that the former commander allowed him to become a virtual member. Do you know why?  Does your commander?  Perhaps your current commander, not you, needs to find out the particulars and then either let it go as is or seek out wing's advice. 

Leave it to you chain of command.

[Eclipse]

The reason is irrelevant - either you're participating or you aren't, and all those excuses you list are the exact reason for putting people into Patron status - they basically "freeze" in place while relieving the burden from themselves and their units from paying attention to them, and when they come back, they have to be re-checked by the FBI.  That's a good thing.  As mentioned, sometimes people go inactive for reasons we need to be aware of.

Why is it a big deal?  For starters CAP-USAF identified the issue of "real' manpower strength as an issue several years ago.  This isn't AOPA or the AMA where your check and a sticker on your rear window mean you're "active".

The only value an empty-shirt member provides to CAP is financial, and there are several ways they can continue that support without being counted as a full member.

Active members have access to any number of resources and facilities, CAP and military.  As a commander, the last thing I want is someone I've never met wandering around with an active ID and my being responsible for his CAP activities - because that's the deal - despite many commanders and members acting otherwise, Unit CC's are supposed to be held responsible for the actions of their members.

And "current" doesn't mean you took the "Heat Stress" safety briefing in January - just because you take a monthly, or annual safety test doesn't make you "current" in regards to either national or local ops by a long shot.  CAP is such a moving target that when you miss a meeting or two you're out of the loop.

As to the "Why do you care internet arguments?"  It would appear he's in a position to have discussed this with his CC and is looking for how others handle this.

[RiverAux]

Just what is the argument FOR keeping him in the unit?

[Garibaldi]

Just what is the argument FOR keeping him in the unit?

Might be the difference between a unit turning from a squadron to a flight. I dunno. I don't get into that kind of stuff, even after 20 years, but I remember my old unit in WIWG going over MMLs and trying to decide if we should turf some folks who were living out of state and not contributing anything but money to NATHQ in the form of dues. The deciding factor was that if we kept more than 12 members on the roster we would retain squadron standing and not go down to flight status. Which was bad, apparently. I could be wrong on the specifics but that's what I remember.

[Eclipse]

Might be the difference between a unit turning from a squadron to a flight.

What's the point of that?

Again, shopping zeros to maintain a charter flies in the face of the core values.

[lordmonar]

I don't often agree with Eclipse....but when I do.

It is six of one, half dozen of the other.

Keep him or lose him.....it depends on your commander.

We have several "empty shirts" in our unit......but we know them and we know why they are not as active as the "active" members.  The all answer the e-mail and they all stay current and make appearance at the squadron when asked and able.

If you really don't know this guy....don't see him....and he refuses to communicate with you......then it is time to look into it and take the approprate action.

Bottom line...if he belongs to your squadron.....then he is your squadron commander's responsibility.   

[Private Investigator]

it appears this is a former cadet who contacted the previous commander. She allowed him to be a "virtual member," she calls it. This member IS NOT deployed, is living IN THE STATE. Does not contact the unit, does not participate except to take classes or stay safety current. Why should he have the bene3fits others do?

Well mystery solved? You do have his personnel file?

I think let things be. You still have no ideal what his health issues are or what his circumstances are.

[Eclipse]

You still have no ideal what his health issues are or what his circumstances are.

How is "health or circumstance" relevant?

[Private Investigator]

Eclipse, if you were struck down with a serious health issue and have to be in a nursing home for two years, for example. I would hope your brothers and sisters in CAP would not transfer you to 000 or 2B you. JMHO.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, if you were struck down with a serious health issue and have to be in a nursing home for two years, for example. I would hope your brothers and sisters in CAP would not transfer you to 000 or 2B you. JMHO.

Assuming that happened, my Commander would be fully aware of the circumstance and in contact with my family, if for no other reason then to get all the fancy issued toys I have.  The last thing I or they would be concerned about would be CAP.  It's doubtful they would even continue to pay for my membership, which would be fine.

Once I awoke in the future with cybernetic implants and the strength of 10 men, I would have no issue if the put me in patron status for the time I was
locked in the basement at Area 57.

This business of "I got super busy / sick / other..." "...so I dropped off the radar what's it to you?..." Doesn't fly.

[lordmonar]

Eclipse, if you were struck down with a serious health issue and have to be in a nursing home for two years, for example. I would hope your brothers and sisters in CAP would not transfer you to 000 or 2B you. JMHO.

I see your concern......but really.......do we assume that everyone who keeps safety current, pays his dues and refuses to answere e-mail, phone calls and mail as just too sick?
0000
Failing to respond to communications is grounds for 2b.  If you just want the card and get the volunteer......well we got patron status for that.

As I said before....there are circumstances where you could/should keep an empty shirt......but if you don't know him and he refuses to communicate......000 or 2b are options that should be considered.

[Garibaldi]

Once I awoke in the future with cybernetic implants and the strength of 10 men, I would have no issue if the put me in patron status for the time I was
locked in the basement at Area 57.

Is that CAP's super-secret research facility?

[Eclipse]

Is that CAP's super-secret research facility?

Need to know.

I will say there's a lot of gray signs in the hallways.

[RADIOMAN015]

The reason is irrelevant - either you're participating or you aren't, and all those excuses you list are the exact reason for putting people into Patron status - they basically "freeze" in place while relieving the burden from themselves and their units from paying attention to them, and when they come back, they have to be re-checked by the FBI.  That's a good thing.  As mentioned, sometimes people go inactive for reasons we need to be aware of.


Active members have access to any number of resources and facilities, CAP and military.  As a commander, the last thing I want is someone I've never met wandering around with an active ID and my being responsible for his CAP activities - because that's the deal - despite many commanders and members acting otherwise, Unit CC's are supposed to be held responsible for the actions of their members.

I think many of the leadership (as well as other members that care), do have a concern that ANY CAP member entering a military installation by using their CAP ID card is going to behave and not do anything that will discredit CAP.  IF one has a member that stops showing up and can't be contacted or won't return calls, surely PATRON status is the nice way to go, at the very least for realistic staffing statistics.   Otherwise for doing nothing that member gets some benefits (including joining the aero club).  HOWEVER, I'm not sure that if someone produced a "patron" status CAP ID card if they would be prohibited from entering a military installation, since patron members can be invited to attend functions anyways.
RM     

[mikebank]

Is that CAP's super-secret research facility?

Need to know.

I will say there's a lot of gray signs in the hallways.

....or signs of Grays in the hallways?

[abdsp51]

I think many of the leadership (as well as other members that care), do have a concern that ANY CAP member entering a military installation by using their CAP ID card is going to behave and not do anything that will discredit CAP.  IF one has a member that stops showing up and can't be contacted or won't return calls, surely PATRON status is the nice way to go, at the very least for realistic staffing statistics.   Otherwise for doing nothing that member gets some benefits (including joining the aero club).  HOWEVER, I'm not sure that if someone produced a "patron" status CAP ID card if they would be prohibited from entering a military installation, since patron members can be invited to attend functions anyways.
RM     

That is provided they are even allowed onto the installation based off of their CAP ID to begin with.

[Private Investigator]

This business of "I got super busy / sick / other..." "...so I dropped off the radar what's it to you?..." Doesn't fly.

I was in a Squadron with lineage to WWII so needless to say we had members who are members of the greatest generation.

We would get a newbie admin type and once they been around for awhile they want to start transferring and dropping members. "Skipper, if we transfer Spaatz, Yeager and Feik, we will have 100% on the AEPSM!" So I am like, "are you serious?" "Skipper, they did not RSVP to the Squadron BBQ either!!!"

For some people CAP is the greatest thing in their life. I have been to homes where it could be a CAP museum or a shrine to CAP.

I am concerned how a CAP member can judge other CAP members. I personally think it is petty or at its worse, mean spirited.

[Eclipse]

I am concerned how a CAP member can judge other CAP members. I personally think it is petty or at its worse, mean spirited.

Who's judging anything?  This is an objective standard.

"You're either here, or you're not."- to whatever degree is acceptable by the respective commander.

How does being in the "Greatest Generation" impact that in any way?

[AirDX]

How does being in the "Greatest Generation" impact that in any way?

Because they are now 80 - 90 years old.  I guess the guy we presented the 50 year certificate to at the nursing home last spring should have been 2b'ed in your book.

[Eclipse]

Because they are now 80 - 90 years old.  I guess the guy we presented the 50 year certificate to at the nursing home last spring should have been 2b'ed in your book.

No.

He should have been made a 50-year member or put in patron status.  Either is appropriate, neither is disrespectful, the latter is probably the correct choice - then he can still participate when invited, be honored whenever anyone sees fit, and not cause issues on the reports.

[Private Investigator]

   

[Luis R. Ramos]

Well, the issue is now solving itself.

As to why am I posting this here... My (new) Squadron commander wanted me to. Why was I concerned? He wanted to hear my side as squadron Personnel and Admin Officer! I gave it to him, and I wanted to see other's viewpoints. Is there anything wrong with that? I thought that was the purpose of this board, to hear other's opinions on issues affecting their work.

eServices did not have the complete contact information. The Personnel file was not in the squadron, nor he was a cadet as I assumed after I read a message from the former commander. Unlike other members who do not show at the squadron but talk to the commander about why they do not, or do squadron work at home, this member did not.

Some of you assumed beyond what I posted.

If there had been a health issue, he could still have answered the commander!

The only one that could contact him was the former commander. The new commander wanted to transfer him without input from the former commander but I included her in the memos!

She stated he will be moving to another state, so the new commander stated "we will wait some time, I am not transferring him." So I am letting the issue alone.

Thank you all for the input.

[Eclipse]

The Personnel file was not in the squadron

This, in and of itself, is a relatively serious violation of administrative regs - it would be a finding on a CI.

The only one that could contact him was the former commander. The new commander wanted to transfer him without input from the former commander but I included her in the memos!

That's a questionable decision on your part - on the one hand there's the balance of just getting things done quickly and having all the information
possible.  On the other there's the usurping of your CC's authority.  If the relationship with the former CC is benevolent, then its likely a push, but something to consider.

Personally, I would not be excited about a staffer involving prior commanders without my being consulted first.

[Private Investigator]

As to why am I posting this here... My (new) Squadron commander wanted me to. Why was I concerned? He wanted to hear my side as squadron Personnel and Admin Officer! I gave it to him, and I wanted to see other's viewpoints. Is there anything wrong with that? I thought that was the purpose of this board, to hear other's opinions on issues affecting their work.

Everyone here as an opinion. We have a lot of former and present Commanders from the different levels. We have a lot of Master rated Admin and Personnel officers as well as newbies and do not forget the variety of know it alls too.

It is always best to run questions by others. Some items are common and others are unique to certain situations. You are doing what you are suppose to and doing a good job too.   :clap: