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Active vs Inactive Members

Started by lordmonar, January 05, 2007, 11:14:03 PM

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lordmonar

The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether we need to make a distinction between active and inactive members.

My first thoughts on this are:

1.  How do we define active and inactive.

2.  What standard do we use to draw the line between the too.

3.  What actions should we do if a member goes into inactive status.

4.  Should we report our inactive member status up the the chain (as DNall asked in another thread, in E-Services).

IMHO, there is some value in reporting our membership status just so wing and national knows how many mission ready and available members we have so they can plan operations, allocate resources and to send assistance to shore up units that have a bad acitve/inactive ratio.

We should not do it punitivly...if a unit has too many inactive personnel, wing takes away their plane(s).  This would lead to lying on the reports, there would be no benifit for the squadron to accuratly report their member status.

We also have the problem of what exactly is inactive.  If a member does not show up for six months because he is in the hospitol or away at college or deployed to the desert, they are inactive...but have valid excuses.  Also if we have a guy who is just rank and file shows up for the monthly safety meeting and SAREX type of guy...is he inactive as opposed to a staff member who misses the same number of meetings.  The "I'm just a Pilot" (IJP) member is not really inactive but the unit staff member (USM) is because they are affecting their jobs in the unit.

Also what about those members who are Patron Members?  As a cadet squadron commander I don't really care about them unless it is time to drive cadets on a field trip or during a fund rasier or special activity.  So when they don't come to a meeting for 3 months are they inactive?

Just my thoughts on this subject.

I can see the value of accurate reporting in some cases...but I would have no idea how to we would create a system that would fit all the different scenerios that we have given the differences between all the squadrons we have in CAP.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

MIKE

I think it's already defined, it's just not utilized.

Quote from: CAPR 39-23-1. a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below. ...
Mike Johnston

flyguy06

Yes, but what do youcall members that pay their dues as active members but never come to meetings or participate in activities?

MIKE

Units should transfer these members to Patron status.  I would consider it a courtesy... It usually costs a little less per year and you can always transfer back when you become Active again.
Mike Johnston

lordmonar

Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
I think it's already defined, it's just not utilized.

Quote from: CAPR 39-23-1. a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below. ...

I know that definition exists...what I want to discuss is what is the definition of "regularly attents meetins"..."performs a specfic duty assignment"..."Meet training requirments" and "participates"

I mean...Christmas comes around pretty regularly...so does Halley's Comet.....is that regular enought for a member to be considered active. 

"Performs a specific duty assignment" means what exactly?  Do all those members who show up every week for the meeting but just sit back take notes and go home, who have no "job" not qualifity as "perform a specifi duty"?

Meet training requirments.....what training requirments?  Is there in fact ANY requirment to do any training?  You can argue that Level is required....but is level II required?

And finally what does "participate" mean?

What I am looking at, is drawing some more specific guidelines about these definitions.

Does attending meetings regularly mean 1 meeting out of 4?  What if you squadron only meets every other week or once a month?  Is that 1 out of 4 rate acceptable then?

That is what I would like to discuss.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 12:57:14 AM
Units should transfer these members to Patron status.  I would consider it a courtesy... It usually costs a little less per year and you can always transfer back when you become Active again.

Patron members only pay national dues, so the wing and region do not benefit. I'd rather leave them in a regular member status and spread the wealth around. We're certainly not getting complaints from the 1/3 of my unit that pays but doesn't play.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

sdcadet

Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
I think it's already defined, it's just not utilized.

Quote from: CAPR 39-23-1. a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below. ...

Yes, but how many meetings, and activities does a cadet have to attend in order to be considered active?

SarDragon

Quote from: sdcadet on January 06, 2007, 02:47:29 AM
Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
I think it's already defined, it's just not utilized.

Quote from: CAPR 39-23-1. a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below. ...

Yes, but how many meetings, and activities does a cadet have to attend in order to be considered active?

Enough to make satisfactory progress IAW 52-16?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

MIKE

Quote from: sdcadet on January 06, 2007, 02:47:29 AM
Yes, but how many meetings, and activities does a cadet have to attend in order to be considered active?

Well... you can get kicked out if you miss three regular meetings in a row.

Quote from: CAPR 35-3Sec. A. (3) c. Lack of interest demonstrated by failure to attend three
successive regular meetings without an acceptable excuse.
Mike Johnston

sdcadet

#9
Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 02:58:15 AM
Well... you can get kicked out if you miss three regular meetings in a row.

Does that mean that if a cadet misses 3 meetings in a row that they then are kicked out, or does that just mean that the squadron commander has the ability to do so at that point?

Tags - MIKE

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Eclipse

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 06, 2007, 12:46:17 AM
Yes, but what do youcall members that pay their dues as active members but never come to meetings or participate in activities?

Useless...

Ok, admittedly that's a smartass answer, but seriously, members who are able-bodied but simply choose to not participate should just leave, or perhaps there should be a legit "hiatus" status for them.

People have lives outside of CAP, stuff happens, vacations, job situations, etc.  its one thing to have to step back for a while, and a whole 'nother to not show up for years.

We're required to maintain personnel files, and similiar and yet the local units get nothing in return, no dues money, no assistance, and the unit's strength is incorrect.

I know a lot of Unit CC's who would snap up my inactives in a minute, just so their eServices number goes higher.

I don't get it.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2007, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 06, 2007, 12:46:17 AM
Yes, but what do youcall members that pay their dues as active members but never come to meetings or participate in activities?

Useless...

Their money spends just like yours and mine. I spent ten years in a pay-no-play status, and thought I was doing everyone a favor - myself and CAP with my continued monetary contribution. (As a member of an OS squadron, I only paid National dues.)
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

DNall

Quote from: Eclipse on January 06, 2007, 03:11:09 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 06, 2007, 12:46:17 AM
Yes, but what do youcall members that pay their dues as active members but never come to meetings or participate in activities?

Useless...

Ok, admittedly that's a smartass answer, but seriously, members who are able-bodied but simply choose to not participate should just leave, or perhaps there should be a legit "hiatus" status for them.

People have lives outside of CAP, stuff happens, vacations, job situations, etc.  its one thing to have to step back for a while, and a whole 'nother to not show up for years.

We're required to maintain personnel files, and similiar and yet the local units get nothing in return, no dues money, no assistance, and the unit's strength is incorrect.

I know a lot of Unit CC's who would snap up my inactives in a minute, just so their eServices number goes higher.

I don't get it.
You mean like oh say Patron Status? Maybe it'd be better if we renamed that reserve status. Wait, I like what Iowa is doing w/ their inactives on reserve status. Okay so transfer everyone to that don't show regularly ghost reserve Sq (prob should have those at Gp level). The ones that want to participate a little & keep working on PME or soemthing can maintain regular membership & be called "Active Reserve," still go on missions & crap if they keep up their ratings, but they get a lower priority on training missions & are also not expected to contribute in any big way - whatever Iowa has pretty good rules going, stick to that. Then people who don't wnat to participate at all, they get put in Patron "Inactive Reserve" status. That's a placeholder so they don't get bumped out but they don't have any real rights & priviledges either, no missions, etc.

Oh & while you're doing this, rig it so people can set it up to autodraft for their renewal if they like, it's optional & you get  afew more bucks, fewer senior officers thinking each year if it's still worth the hassle cause they don't get the notice in the mail no more - just a thank you for renewing here's your card.

How's that sound?

Lat part, I might have said this, I know I did somewhere... input attendence on eServices after each meeting - 30sec checkbox submit process. Little statement at the bottom: This information is collected by the AF for force strength analysis, & is considered a govt document. Intentionally providing false statements on this document constitutes a crime punishable by 5 years & a kick in the jewels or whatever it is. I don't care if it's true or not, I just don't want people reporting folks as there when they're out robbing a bank, & I really want accurate info to judge the right place to put my resources (planes, trains radios, & automobiles for starters, training dollars, etc).

Had some other thread going on another subject, talking about using stuff that's avail & terming it to your people as a reward: "Cadet Johnny you've been doing well the last couple months so we're going to offer you a chance at o-flights this weekend." Be nice to do that w/ Mission pilots/crews... Sir you've been participating actively at your unit & serving as ES training officer, you get first priority today versus bob over there that comes once a month, we'll try to get him flown too, but you gotta earn your keep around here. Some cool auto generated graphs & stuff would be nice also to actually do some mgmt.

Dragoon

Here's a thought

An "inactive member" is one who cannot participate in CAP activities beyond visiting unit meetings and social events that he is specifically invited to. (Meaning,  if you want to DO anything in CAP, you have to be listed as "active").  The inactive member may wear his uniform during the above listed events.

Unit commanders determine active/inactive status.  At the very least, members who attend and contribute to 75% of the meetings will be considered active.  Unit commanders may waive this attendance requirement on a case by case basis.

Inactive status should not be used as a punitive measure for anything other than unexcused absences.  Other measures should be used to handling disciplinary issues or poor duty performance.   Members may appeal innappropriate use of inactive status using standard CAP complaint procedures.

A commander may reinstate a member to active status at any time.  Members may use standard transfer procedures to change units while in inactive status.

Inactive status will be noted in the National Database.  Members who are inactive at their point of membership renewal will be issued an ID card that notes their status.  Inactive members continue to pay dues as normal members.

ES ratings do not automatically expire because of inactive status, but may not be exercised until the member is reinstated to active status.

Inactive members are not required to participate in any CAP training (including online training) or meet any emerging requirements levied on all members, but WILL have to meet all new training and other requirements prior to being returned to active status.




lordmonar

Dragoon,

I could not see a more complete waste of time!

So SM X does not show up for 3 months...at some point you make him go inactive....NHQ spends money on him to print and send him a new card....he gets the card....says "oh darn...they won't let me fly in the next SAREX"...so he shows up to the next meeting.  He is placed back on active status.  NHQ again spends money printing and sending a new card.  He goes to the next SAREX and then you don't see him for 3 months at which point you change him to inactive status.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

I don't think a new card would be required.  Just make it part of the MIMS system so that it can be checked, just like we check other currency information. 

Dragoon

Quote from: lordmonar on January 06, 2007, 05:42:21 PM
Dragoon,

I could not see a more complete waste of time!

So SM X does not show up for 3 months...at some point you make him go inactive....NHQ spends money on him to print and send him a new card....he gets the card....says "oh darn...they won't let me fly in the next SAREX"...so he shows up to the next meeting.  He is placed back on active status.  NHQ again spends money printing and sending a new card.  He goes to the next SAREX and then you don't see him for 3 months at which point you change him to inactive status.



I thought about that - which is why cards only go inactive at renewal time.  Heck, you could even make the guy pay a few bucks to get a new card if he wants to go active - that way you make a profit off the "absentee member who wants to fly but doesn't want to work."

Or you could just let him keep the card, but flag him in the database and not let him play.

Honestly, if you had a guy who kept going inactive, I would hope that when he comes back to be active the Squadron CC would say "tell you what, come to meetings for a month or so and help out, and THEN we'll talk about active status."

Dragoon

#18
Quote from: MIKE on January 06, 2007, 12:24:07 AM
I think it's already defined, it's just not utilized.

Quote from: CAPR 39-23-1. a. Active Member. A member who regularly attends meetings, performs a specific duty assignment, meets training requirements, and participates in the activities of his or her unit. An active member may wear the CAP uniform and compete for grade advancement (see CAPR 35-1, Assignment and Duty Status).
b. Patron Member. A patron member is a financial supporter who maintains current membership through payment of annual membership dues and participates in a limited capacity as outlined below. ...

The thing is, these two categories are not comprehensive.

The member who attends meetings sporadically and wishes to participate in the occasional activity doesn't meet the definition of "Active Member" above, nor the definition of "Patron."

I think the intent of Patron was just a way of getting dues from folks who have no desire to ever play.

But we really need to identify our true active strength from those folks who can't be counted on to help.  And a way to motivate people to actually show up by giving them something to lose - active status.

Removed extra quote tag - MIKE

Johnny Yuma

Quote from: lordmonar on January 05, 2007, 11:14:03 PM
The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether we need to make a distinction between active and inactive members.

My first thoughts on this are:

1.  How do we define active and inactive.

2.  What standard do we use to draw the line between the too.

3.  What actions should we do if a member goes into inactive status.

4.  Should we report our inactive member status up the the chain (as DNall asked in another thread, in E-Services).

IMHO, there is some value in reporting our membership status just so wing and national knows how many mission ready and available members we have so they can plan operations, allocate resources and to send assistance to shore up units that have a bad acitve/inactive ratio.

We should not do it punitivly...if a unit has too many inactive personnel, wing takes away their plane(s).  This would lead to lying on the reports, there would be no benifit for the squadron to accuratly report their member status.

We also have the problem of what exactly is inactive.  If a member does not show up for six months because he is in the hospitol or away at college or deployed to the desert, they are inactive...but have valid excuses.  Also if we have a guy who is just rank and file shows up for the monthly safety meeting and SAREX type of guy...is he inactive as opposed to a staff member who misses the same number of meetings.  The "I'm just a Pilot" (IJP) member is not really inactive but the unit staff member (USM) is because they are affecting their jobs in the unit.

Also what about those members who are Patron Members?  As a cadet squadron commander I don't really care about them unless it is time to drive cadets on a field trip or during a fund rasier or special activity.  So when they don't come to a meeting for 3 months are they inactive?

Just my thoughts on this subject.

I can see the value of accurate reporting in some cases...but I would have no idea how to we would create a system that would fit all the different scenerios that we have given the differences between all the squadrons we have in CAP.

I'd say if a member isn't going to meetings, activities, etc. they should be transferred to Patron status within 60 days of their last activity with CAP.

This sounds harsh, but the bottom line is that the inactive members who aren't doing anything in CAP (especially in Operations) is becoming a liability in the program.

Why do I say this? Take a look at the Table of Allowances for Communications and Supply. Take a look at the funding for mission training we get from the USAF. It's based on ACTIVE people working for the benefit of CAP and the USAF.

If they're not doing anything, cut them loose and recruit those who will. This includes the "Walter Mitty" types who just want to wear a uniform and play officer once in awhile.


Johnny Y.
"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven: