I'm a little confused by the furnished materials and answers I've seen on Knowledgebase; can an 18 year-old AD Marine Corps E-2 wear USAF mosquito wings in CAP?
No.
You must be E-4 or above.
Alright, thank you.
Thought it was E5?
SECTION F- NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER GRADES
6-1. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.
3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).
NCO Grade CAP Grade Authorized
E-7 Second Lieutenant
E-8 First Lieutenant
E-9 Captain
Figure 4. Senior NCO Grade Equivalents
Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 04, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
Thought it was E5?
For the USAF, yes, but the Army, Marines, and Navy consider E-4 and above and NCOs.
Quoth the wiki:
"Today, the USAF is again the only United States military service that does not have an non-commissioned officer rank at the E-4 pay grade. Previously, from 1947 to 1952, and from 1967 to 1997, the rank of sergeant was an NCO rank in the USAF. In the interim, from 1952 to 1967, the paygrade rank was titled Airman First Class."
The latest CAPR 35-5 dropped Sergeant (E-4) from the authorized CAP NCO grades.
Quote from: CAPR 35-51-3. c. CAP NCO grades are:
(1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
(2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
(3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
(4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
(5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
Quote from: MIKE on July 04, 2013, 01:21:44 AM
The latest CAPR 35-5 dropped Sergeant (E-4) from the authorized CAP NCO grades.
Quote from: CAPR 35-51-3. c. CAP NCO grades are:
(1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
(2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
(3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
(4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
(5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
Awesome - the reg dated Dec 2012 clarifies who is eligible (E-5), the KB article, indicated as updated Mar
2013 still infers
it is based on NCO status and E-4 is acceptable. The regs
always win, but is it so hard to actually check them when updating a KB article?
This is why we have constant arguments about HQ staff answering member questions and setting policy in conflict with published regs.
It's not supposed to be this hard for something this simple.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2013, 01:02:49 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 04, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
Thought it was E5?
For the USAF, yes, but the Army, Marines, and Navy consider E-4 and above and NCOs.
Quoth the wiki:
"Today, the USAF is again the only United States military service that does not have an non-commissioned officer rank at the E-4 pay grade. Previously, from 1947 to 1952, and from 1967 to 1997, the rank of sergeant was an NCO rank in the USAF. In the interim, from 1952 to 1967, the paygrade rank was titled Airman First Class."
The Army does not consider all E-4s to be NCOs. Specialists(E-4) which the majority of E-4s in the Army are are not considered NCOs. Corporals are E-4s and considered as NCOs. I am not sure of the exact criteria by which a soldier is made a corporal.
Quote from: ol'fido on July 04, 2013, 02:15:04 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2013, 01:02:49 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 04, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
Thought it was E5?
For the USAF, yes, but the Army, Marines, and Navy consider E-4 and above and NCOs.
Quoth the wiki:
"Today, the USAF is again the only United States military service that does not have an non-commissioned officer rank at the E-4 pay grade. Previously, from 1947 to 1952, and from 1967 to 1997, the rank of sergeant was an NCO rank in the USAF. In the interim, from 1952 to 1967, the paygrade rank was titled Airman First Class."
The Army does not consider all E-4s to be NCOs. Specialists(E-4) which the majority of E-4s in the Army are are not considered NCOs. Corporals are E-4s and considered as NCOs. I am not sure of the exact criteria by which a soldier is made a corporal.
Generally in the Army corporals are made in combat arms units particularly infantry and specialist 4 in others. This is not always the case though and it is really up to the promoting authority.
You must be an E-5 or above as the Air Force (and CAP as an extension) no longer have E-4 NCOs. The fact that the Army or Marine Corps have E-4 corporals is irrelevant. In the Air Force and CAP, an E-4 is a Senior Airman, which is NOT an NCO rank.
CAPR 35-5 (unfortunately) does not specify that the NCO must be E-5 or above to qualify for CAP NCO grade, hence the possible (and understandable) confusion. However, section 6-3 states that "[m]embers who meet the eligibility requirement outlined [in section 6-2] may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander...The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording." (emphasis mine) Since there is no CAP NCO grade for E-4, then it is implied that this grade must be E-5 or above. Personally, I wish the regulation was clearer about this.
ADDED: Just finished reading section 1-3.c, which clearly states that CAP NCO grades start at Staff Sergeant (SSgt), which in the Air Force is an E-5.
Why is the fact that the USMC or the USA have corporals irrelevant?
QuoteSECTION F- NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER GRADES
6-1. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.
CAPR 35-5 says military or ex-military NCOs......that means corporals and petty officer 3d.....just because the USAF does not start NCO until E-5.....it means CAP does have SrA....yes it is stupid.....and could be fixed....simply substitute enlisted ever place 35-5 says NCO and we are golden.
That could be a proposed change to CAPR 35-5. But as it stands now, section 1-3.c has the list of CAP NCOs starting at SSgt. There are no mentions of SrA or any other lower enlisted ranks for that matter. I believe that CAPR 35-5 is vague and poorly written in that regard, but that seems to be true of many of our regulations.
So.....by my read....and based on the stupidy of 35-5.....E-4 Corp/PO3 get a promotion when they join CAP and go NCO.
Again......as you say.....the NCO rules in 35-5 have not been changed since the 80's/90's when the USAF did away E-4 Sgts.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on July 04, 2013, 03:36:14 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on July 04, 2013, 02:15:04 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2013, 01:02:49 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on July 04, 2013, 12:44:29 AM
Thought it was E5?
For the USAF, yes, but the Army, Marines, and Navy consider E-4 and above and NCOs.
Quoth the wiki:
"Today, the USAF is again the only United States military service that does not have an non-commissioned officer rank at the E-4 pay grade. Previously, from 1947 to 1952, and from 1967 to 1997, the rank of sergeant was an NCO rank in the USAF. In the interim, from 1952 to 1967, the paygrade rank was titled Airman First Class."
The Army does not consider all E-4s to be NCOs. Specialists(E-4) which the majority of E-4s in the Army are are not considered NCOs. Corporals are E-4s and considered as NCOs. I am not sure of the exact criteria by which a soldier is made a corporal.
Generally in the Army corporals are made in combat arms units particularly infantry and specialist 4 in others. This is not always the case though and it is really up to the promoting authority.
Most E-4s in the infantry are Spec4s. Only knew one Corporal in my four years as an 11B.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2013, 06:05:12 AM
So.....by my read....and based on the stupidy of 35-5.....E-4 Corp/PO3 get a promotion when they join CAP and go NCO.
Again......as you say.....the NCO rules in 35-5 have not been changed since the 80's/90's when the USAF did away E-4 Sgts.
CAPR 35-5 also states that "[t]he CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard." So no, no promotions from Army CPL to CAP SSgt. But if you have doubts, just wait to see what happens when you submit the CAPF 2 to NHQ.
The intent of the regulation is that E-5 and above can request CAP NCO grades. The problem is that 35-5 doesn't spell it out as clear in the eligibility requirements, which just says NCOs.
I didn't do the CAP NCO grades, just did my 6 Months and went to 2nd Lt. I was like CAP NCO is another realm that apparently not many people know about, so I made it simple :) Always wanted to be a Butter Bar
Seems like this would have been a simple fix to a well-known problem. Not sure why it wasn't changed a while back.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 04, 2013, 02:58:38 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2013, 06:05:12 AM
So.....by my read....and based on the stupidy of 35-5.....E-4 Corp/PO3 get a promotion when they join CAP and go NCO.
Again......as you say.....the NCO rules in 35-5 have not been changed since the 80's/90's when the USAF did away E-4 Sgts.
CAPR 35-5 also states that "[t]he CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard." So no, no promotions from Army CPL to CAP SSgt. But if you have doubts, just wait to see what happens when you submit the CAPF 2 to NHQ.
The intent of the regulation is that E-5 and above can request CAP NCO grades. The problem is that 35-5 doesn't spell it out as clear in the eligibility requirements, which just says NCOs.
Does the Form 2 go all the way to NHQ for NCO promotions?
6-1. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.
Note that the NCO grades are appointments not promotions (and there is no promotion process pasts the initial appointment).