What can I do in CAP Comms?

[MilesDyson]

Hi -

I am new to CAP Comms. I am an amateur radio operator and have all sorts of HF and VHF gear available for use. I know a long time ago lots of Hams were involved in CAP, but that things have changed. Can I still participate in HF nets, etc, if I don't have a CAP issued radio? Can I use PC-ALE on the ALE nets? Are we doing anything with packet or digital comms? My squadron commander wants me to be involved in comms but I don't seem to be able to get basic answers to questions and I don't want to invest a lot of time trying to get my station setup for CAP if I find out that I can't use my stuff. Any guidance?

THanks

[cap235629]

If your equipment is NTIA compliant, then you can use it on CAP nets.  No on the PC-ALE.  We are using APCO P-25 digital modulation on our VHF radios.  There is no current plan in  the works for packet comms.

If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude.

If you have any questions start with your squadron communications officer as most commanders knowledge of the program is limited to the "push this button to talk" level.  If there is not a comm officer at your unit, go to the group comm officer if your wing has a group structure and then to your wing DC.

[MilesDyson]

"If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude."

But isn't that what has pretty much killed CAP Comms over the past decade? I mean, I used to hear all about CAP from my Ham friends who were involved, but now they all seem to have gotten out of it. I just want to know whether I can make a contribution before I put time and effort into it. Also, my wing doesn't seem to have a strong Comms program - I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

[cap235629]

"If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude."

But isn't that what has pretty much killed CAP Comms over the past decade? I mean, I used to hear all about CAP from my Ham friends who were involved, but now they all seem to have gotten out of it. I just want to know whether I can make a contribution before I put time and effort into it. Also, my wing doesn't seem to have a strong Comms program - I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

CAP Comms is FAR from dead.  The attitude expressed above actually got rid of "dead wood" as far as I am concerned.  Yes there was a ton of experienced operators who left the program, but their elitist attitude left with them.

CAP radios are issued according to a mission dictated Table of Allowances.  If you can fill a role within the TOA, you are issued a radio.

[davidsinn]

I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

You must have a need to have a radio to get assigned a corporate radio since they are a limited asset. I have a radio because I'm a ground team leader. My unit's comm officer does not have a radio because he has no real need for one.

[MilesDyson]

I guess that answers my questions then. Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills. 

[cap235629]

I guess that answers my questions then. Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills.

You can bring a TON to CAP comms but you do not have to have a radio to do so.  On a mission, you will be issued a radio when needed.  Your experience and knowledge will be welcomed, if not your equipment.

By being involved at the unit level you can be part of the solution to your wings comm challenges.  It is all about how you look at the communications SYSTEM.  We are not a radio club but part of a communications system that has a specific function and infrastructure.

[arajca]

Your skills are useful. The AF and National designed the Table of Allowances to support operational needs, which is how the military determines what it needs and who gets it. Keep in mind the table is not fully supplied. COWG has less than 1/2 the handhelds it is allowed and needs.

There is nothing stopping you from using your own equipment, it just needs to meet a higher standard than ham radio equipment does. The equipment CAP uses is spec'd by the military and purchased through military/GSA contracts.

CAP comms died out becuase of changes in technology, not because ham radio operators left CAP. Why deal with the limitations of radio or a call down list, when an email can reach more folks with less degradation of the message? It is being revived because many emergency service and management agencies have found out that commercial service (cell-phones and Nextel type devices) are operationally worthless in an emergency or disaster environment.

[arajca]

Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills.

Since you have the radio skills, maybe you won't be the pilot that is used as a bad example in training, as most are.

[MilesDyson]

Well, of course, when you talk about using the equipment that is "spec'd by the military" while you might  have better quality (questionable) you have vastly less quantity. By pushing the "dead wood" amateur radio operators out of the organization you are reducing by hundreds and thousands the people who would be able to stand ready and serve in an emergency. How many amateur radio VHF/UHF repeaters are there in your state? How many CAP repeaters? And, by pushing out the "dead wood" you are eliminating the people who have the skills to advance the state of the art. What we need at this point in CAP is the ability to downlink high bandwidth video and imagery in realtime and we need a high bandwidth two way data connection. But, no way that can be done with the present systems and no opportunity for those in CAP to explore and experiment with new technology. It appears that we are stuck.

[cap235629]

Well, of course, when you talk about using the equipment that is "spec'd by the military" while you might  have better quality (questionable) you have vastly less quantity. By pushing the "dead wood" amateur radio operators out of the organization you are reducing by hundreds and thousands the people who would be able to stand ready and serve in an emergency. How many amateur radio VHF/UHF repeaters are there in your state? How many CAP repeaters? And, by pushing out the "dead wood" you are eliminating the people who have the skills to advance the state of the art. What we need at this point in CAP is the ability to downlink high bandwidth video and imagery in realtime and we need a high bandwidth two way data connection. But, no way that can be done with the present systems and no opportunity for those in CAP to explore and experiment with new technology. It appears that we are stuck.

Your repeater argument is invalid as even if we wanted to, we CANNOT use amateur infrastructure.  Our HF system is actually getting better everyday and is what the push is for emergency comms.  VHF is strictly tactical use in an immediate operational area.

As far as data transfer, I agree it would be nice but is not the primary purpose of the Comm system.  Like it or not, it is what it is and it is what it is by design of the AF based upon our operational requirements.  Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

[arajca]

The number of ham repeaters of any flavor is irrelevent as they cannot be used by CAP (or to conduct CAP business by hams) per FCC regulations.

At this time, we do not have the frequency allotments to do data and video download, but we have not be tasked to do so by Operations. Comm cannot just do stuff or push the envelope without a justified need from operations. This is more than the local (or wing) ops guy telling his comm guy "It'd be nice if...". The comm folks discuss this frequently and there are discussions at national levels about how this can be accomplished, but to date, we have not received the tasking. As for exploring and experimenting with new technology, it's possible, but still needs to have the justified need and (the 800 lb gorilla in the room) funding. If it comes down to money for an experimental project or money to obtain needed equipment, your experiment will need to wait.

As for pushing the deadwood out, those were the members who, when told their modified ham equipment wouldn't be permitted on the CAP system, decided to take theirs toys and leave. There are many (including our National Comm Team Leader) how stayed and continued to contribute their skills to CAP. That's why any ham that comes in the attitude that they have to be allowed to use THEIR ham equipment on our system, or that THEIR equipment is superior, are not welcome. The ones who understand that the CAP system is NOT the same as the ham system and can make that mental adjustment, are welcome. CAP's system is a military system - our frequency allocation comes from the NTIA through the DoD, not from the FCC.

[MilesDyson]

The "reason" we can't use amateur radio is purely a decision made by CAP. I can't believe that amateur radio operators would rise up in protest if amateur radio was being used for valid emergency service training and missions - the largest justification amateurs have for their (our) frequency allocations is that we provide an emergency communications capability. It is also a silly argument to say that CAP can't use FRS radios for emergency service - as if FRS users would rise up in protest during Katrina or some such disaster because we were active on a few channels for a short time in a small area. These are ridiculous decisions made by CAP itself.   

Laws and regulations can and should be changed for the better. It's called democracy. In fact, CAP itself was started by what - a group of civilians who thought they could lend their services to the country.

And I am talking about this as a pilot, not as a comms person. I can plainly see the need for taking a Predator styled recon pod aloft to conduct a search, or to provide real time remote observation to an incident commander. As an engineer, I can plainly see how to do it - and I can even do it on my own dime, but I won't do it if I know in advance that my ideas cannot even be discussed because of how CAP has written its own regulations.

[arajca]

The decision was not CAP's. Some group called the Federal Communications Commission has the rule. It's not a matter of ham radio operators rising up in protest or not. It's a matter of following rules as written. Since a change in the rule allows for some usage of ham bands by federal agenices (because our frequency allotment comes vis the feds, the FCC considers us a federal agency), CAP has put in a request to fall under this, but nothing has come of it. The FRS argument was also not CAP's, it was the USAF's. CAP has pushed for their use, and managed to get a exemption carved out to allow them for use in contacting lost parties. That was a result of an aircrew doing that and resulting in 12 saves. The primary argument from the AF is the lack of security available and the potential for interference since FRS is public use and anyone can use them. I've seen folks get mad because there are so many users they cannot talk. On multiple channels.

You can see the need. Comm folks can see (and have seen) the need. Some Operations folks have. However, the VALIDATED REQUIREMENT has not been made. Without it, we cannot do anything about the perceived need. The necessity of the VALIDATED REQUIREMENT comes from the AF, not from CAP. Unfortunately, a previous experiment - ARCHER - has burned CAP. We developed the system, bought 16 prototype systems, got no support and currently only have 5-6 operational.

Change can be made, but until then, we still have operate under the rules as currently written.

[RADIOMAN015]

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).  It makes it much easier for radio operators to train and you are not depending upon the availability of a specific person so that your network will operate.  This should be an inspection item to ensure enough assets are available at CAP facilities throughout a wing so that the radio system is not degraded.
RM

[MilesDyson]

Hmmpff.

I mean really, if you want to establish a known reliable system by distributing corporate radios, fine. But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? And please don't tell me my equipment is not state of the art - I run a software defined radio which has a GPS disciplined oscillator. I can handle any data mode, digital voice, whatever. Exceeds any NTIA standards. 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

Yuck!

[Eclipse]

I will stick to flying.

Sounds like the best course of action for everyone involved.

[cap235629]

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).  It makes it much easier for radio operators to train and you are not depending upon the availability of a specific person so that your network will operate.  This should be an inspection item to ensure enough assets are available at CAP facilities throughout a wing so that the radio system is not degraded.
RM

Believe it or not RM we agree.  However the reality of the situation is that most of our units meet in facilities that do not allow us to rig a 90 foot B&W antenna.  Some do not even allow the erection of a VHF antenna.  In these cases we have to work with what we have.  I am in the process of fixing the issue on a case by case basis.  In the mean time, we have to be operational and this is the way we have to operate, for now.

[coudano]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

[MilesDyson]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...