Put the old pilots out on the ice floe

[FW]

The Air Force would only "pull" our funding if CAP violated its Cooperative Agreement and/or Statement of Work.  While that is unlikely, it is wise we all remember we work "with" the Air Force but, they are not our only "customer".  Besides, that is the reason we have a Board of Governors.  It's their responsibility to see the money keeps coming in...

Angel Flight has recently set an age limit for its pilots.  Our most recent fatal aircraft crashes have occurred with our most "seasoned" pilots.  If someone over the age of 80 wants to fly as PIC, wonderful.  They will just need to find another source for aircraft.

[Climbnsink]

Why not stop them at 65 yrs old and require first class medicals for O ride pilots?  For gosh sakes won't someone think of the children?  I'm half way to 80 so this won't affect me, it just seems like more solving problems that don't exist.   

[FW]

^can anyone say "insurance risk"?   

[Short Field]

^can anyone say "insurance risk"?   

What insurance? 

[lordmonar]

Why not stop them at 65 yrs old and require first class medicals for O ride pilots?  For gosh sakes won't someone think of the children?  I'm half way to 80 so this won't affect me, it just seems like more solving problems that don't exist.

What about the children?   We are talking about 12% of the O-ride pilots nation wide.

If you have typical squadron of 10 pilots.....that is one of them.....are you saying the mission will fail?

As for "solving a problem that don't exist"......Read the opening line of the proposal....there have been several incidents that is making the USAF nervous.  Someone thinks there is a problem.

[Climbnsink]

It is still a check pilot failure.  There are plenty of cognitively challenged, ticker ready to explode 69 yr olds.  Once you start drawing lines in the sand it gets all sorts of ugly.  If a medical, Flight review, and CAP checkrides can't stop the whispering death of old age what makes people certain picking an arbitrary age limit will? 

[lordmonar]

Because then the check ride does not have to be the bad guy.....he can just say "sorry Joe....70 is too old to be an O-ride pilot".  Joe's not mad at his long time CAP buddy and we are all a little safer.

As I said before.....IIWIC....I would build a mechanism that would allow the old guys to get a waiver.....it would include jumping through a lot of hoops and proving to someone with iron clad accountability that Joe was in fact fit to fly.

I don't want to force out anyone....but we all know of someone who should not be flying but those in power do nothing.  Do we really need one of these guys to kill someone before national takes a stand.

Just telling the check pilots to do their jobs is not enough.....because some of them are not doing it now.  Relying on the FAA medical examiner is not enough...because we know there are plenty of FAA doctors who will sign off on anyone.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that any pilots impacted by such a rule could still fly as an Observer until they drop and I would hope that they would be great at it. 

I really don't see these as drastically different than the more or less arbitrary minimum age requirements we have in CAP for various positions.  We know that some kids probably have the ability to perform some of these jobs before they reach that minimum but realistic quality control absent a fixed minimum age would likely be as difficult to apply as what we're asking check pilots to do when making a call about whether a pilot is just too old to do the job even if they can meet the bare minimums required to perform the task at some given point in time. 

[TACP]

Keep in mind that any pilots impacted by such a rule could still fly as an Observer until they drop and I would hope that they would be great at it.   

However positive, that is probably one of the most politically incorrect statements I have ever heard... I almost felt bad about laughing.

Besides that, I'm just a dirty ground pounder, so I'll leave this to the pilots.

[WT]

OK, so we allow the Checkpilot, rather than doing his job and telling a sub-par pilot that he won't be passing the CAPF 5, "Hey Joe, you're too old, I just can't pass you, it's the rules." 

So, what excuse do we give the Check pilot for someone who is 20 / 30 / 40 years old and is sub-par?  This is a ludicrous excuse!  Again, PLEASE, if we have Stan / Eval issue, let's fix the Stan / Eval issue, rather than trying to create excuses!

One of the major responsibilities of a Checkpilot is to not allow someone to pass who does not perform to the standard.  That would include dismissing ANY external pressures toward a positive outcome for any particular candidate.  If a Checkpilot can't accept this responsibility, they shouldn't be a Checkpilot.

Hey, here's a novel idea...  Rather than discriminating pilots based upon age, why don't we improve Checkpilot Standardization and work toward making it more standardized, like it's supposed to be??  More / better / improved training for Check Pilots would make for a better experience for everyone.

[Gunner C]

How about this - we set the cut-off at (fill in the blank).  After that age, the pilot will have to get a class (fill in the blank) flight physical and will have to go through an extremely thorough exam and check ride every (fill in the blank) months.

Those who are still sharp and are good aviators will be able to continue service.  Those who are slipping will still be able to serve as observers.  If the check rides are funded, no sweat.

WIWAD, I had to take a class III flight every two years after age 40.  At 41 I got busted off of dive duty because of blood pressure.  Yeah, it sucked and I lost about  $200 bucks a month, that's just the way it was.  I was able to stay on free fall status, but that was coming quickly.  I don't think the Army wanted my to be woozy at 35,000' at night on O₂ as a jump master with ten other guys counting on me to get them in the right county.

Getting old sucks.  The body wears out.  The "brain operating system" slows down.  I've been 28 years old twice.  I'm not nearly as quick as I was the first time.

[lordmonar]

How about this - we set the cut-off at (fill in the blank).  After that age, the pilot will have to get a class (fill in the blank) fight physical and will have to go through an extremely thorough exam and check ride every (fill in the blank) months.

Those who are still sharp and are good aviators will be able to continue service.  Those who are slipping will still be able to serve as observers.  If the check rides are funded, no sweat.

+1
That was what I have been saying since my first post!

[Flying Pig]

Lord

^you knew we would eventually get around to it.  It took 4 pages for everyone to get warmed up.  Im sure there was a uniform discussion embedded in there somewhere too so it wasnt a total loss.

[Climbnsink]

^Well there is the solution.  We'll have pilots older than 70 wear new distinctive uniforms- say blaze orange jumpsuits that have 'DANGER' written across the front and back.   Pilots over 80 will be assigned a cadet in a grim reaper costume to follow them around at all CAP activities.  Doesn't stop sudden death but at least everyone will know who not to fly with...

[lordmonar]

Lord

^you knew we would eventually get around to it.  It took 4 pages for everyone to get warmed up.  I'm sure there was a uniform discussion embedded in there somewhere too so it wasn't a total loss.

Well now that you mention it.....any pilot over 70 should have to wear a silver scarf with all uniforms so we can quickly identify them! 

Edit....Climbnsink beat me to it!  I like his idea better!  You can see the cadets all lining up to join the Grim Reaper Flight!

[heliodoc]

Any of this really a shock to anyone?

Yep 4 pages and yet the Form 5 is the most etalked about thing in the CAP community from ages 18 to 89.

Proving to me one thing....CAP has yet to prove that the Form 5 is BETTER than any BFR or flight review as it is called today.

Some of my most informative flights leading up to Form 5's were that from the soxty thru eighty year old community including the helo drivers a from the Hiller 12 and 23 days to the oldskis running and teaching the G1000

Call it what u want....but PAPA AF might be driving this one and some some of CAP le
gal types MIGHT just be informing themselves of the gray and aging CAP "pilot workforce" somewhat similar to what the other agencies have ben suffering.

Get ready for the loss of some great teaching and flying skill(s) CAP will be losing.  CAP has got itself to thank for the Form 5 process that really should be no more special than a Flight Review.  I know that is hard for the hardcore CAPers Stan Eval types thinking that they are wanna be USAF SUPT IP's that a ready on a moments notice to eliminate rather than educate...even with the "ticker syndrome" that everyone is so wary of here after the 4 pages of slumper fright

[flyguy06]

Lord

^you knew we would eventually get around to it.  It took 4 pages for everyone to get warmed up.  Im sure there was a uniform discussion embedded in there somewhere too so it wasnt a total loss.

So true

[Short Field]

CAP has yet to prove that the Form 5 is BETTER than any BFR or flight review as it is called today.

Every other year my Fm 5 gets logged as a BFR as well.  I have not really found a difference between the two. 

[flyguy06]

CAP has yet to prove that the Form 5 is BETTER than any BFR or flight review as it is called today.

Every other year my Fm 5 gets logged as a BFR as well.  I have not really found a difference between the two.

A BFR Is student driven. You are supposed to work on things you feel you are weak on. I gave a BFR and we shot approaches the whole time. A Form 5 is a set list of required maneuvers t be performed.

[Flying Pig]

I can agree with that.  A Form 5 is a checkride.  Id be a little hesitant to tell my check pilot, "Hey, I need to work on ........."  Theyd say, "OK, you work on those and call me when your ready."