NTSB: Pilot of Doomed Buffalo Plane 'Was Slow Learning' to Operate the Aircraft

[Pumbaa]

Just seconds before the worst U.S. air crash in more than seven years, the pilot said "Jesus Christ" and moments later his first officer screamed as Flight 3407 plunged to the ground.

A cockpit voice recorder transcript released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board show that only minutes before the Feb. 12 crash on approach to Buffalo, Captain Marvin Renslow and First Officer Rebecca Shaw chatted about her career and shared their fear of flying in icy weather.

Transcripts
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/buffalo_cockpit_transcript.pdf

Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519906,00.html

[flyguy06]

This was a tradgedy in deed. Unfortunantly its going to affect a lot of low time pilots seeking that first airline job. I forsee airlines stop hiring 200-500 hour pilots like they have been doing in the past. The will probably go back to hirong 1500 hour plus pilots.

This has definantly not been good press for low time pilot or regional airlines. But it is a lesson.

[DG]

This was only inevitable.  With what is going on in the commuter airline business.

And has been going on for some time now.

Hiring low-time 18 and 19 year old pilots and paying them only $15,000 / year.

Many of them coming from Part 141 schools and ATP mills.  With no real flying ability or confidence.

FAA legal.  But not ready for a real test in actual conditions.

They know who they are.

This is just what Captain Sullenberger was referring to when he voiced his fear and sadness for the future of pilots in the airline business.

[flynd94]

Just seconds before the worst U.S. air crash in more than seven years, the pilot said "Jesus Christ" and moments later his first officer screamed as Flight 3407 plunged to the ground.

A cockpit voice recorder transcript released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board show that only minutes before the Feb. 12 crash on approach to Buffalo, Captain Marvin Renslow and First Officer Rebecca Shaw chatted about her career and shared their fear of flying in icy weather.

Transcripts
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/buffalo_cockpit_transcript.pdf

Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519906,00.html

Ok Rant is about to start.

What do you expect us (I am a Part 121 Captain, flying the Beech 1900D) to say into the CVR when we are going down?  I know I joke with my family that my last words will be "I love you".  Do you have a suggestion?  Please let me know.

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat.  I have seen pilots with 2000+ hours not get it and, flown with 100+ hour pilots who get it.  Being a pilot requires a bit of a "god's gift".  Yes, you can train a person to be a somewhat decent pilot but, then their are the ones that have the "right stuff".

Also, getting icing experience is not that easy.  I was lucky and flew Part 135, single pilot IFR for awhile.  I got a great education on icing but, I learned it all on my own.  I watched the FAA video presentation on icing but, nothing replaces personal experience.  Something that taught me a lot but, many a time I landed, then kissed the ground.  The old adage, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

I will not guess on what brought the Q400 down in BUF.  I know what I believe happened.  I pray for all the lives that were lost.

Keith

[Spike]

^ I agree!  Well put.

The media was quick to blame the pilot.  What a terrible blow to his family, and all the families that lost someone on this flight.  I strongly believe the transcripts should never be released, except to the Government Officials and the immediate families of the victims.  There are already too many videos on the internet making fun of tragedies like this. 

What in the world would be the last words out of your mouth when you know you have a second to live. 

Stupid media, stupid government for reporting on it like they currently do.

One simple statement as to what happened, why it happened and how others can prevent it from happening again is all that is needed.  Everything else is opinion and belief, not fact.

Sometimes the Government and the News Media are such an embarrassment. 

[heliodoc]

I also understand that if one comes from SW USA to the NE Corridor, the flying is quite different and everyone here knows that.

I am happy to see a 121 1900D operator commenting here.  Buddies of mine flew DHC Twin Otters for Crown Air back in the 90's.  They even said coming from the Midwest with 1200 hours under your belt DID NOT make you an expert in the field.  The WX there was Hotel Sierra 80+% of the time

We can all speculate how the industry is going to go

Blame the low time pilots is easy.... Let's look at the MANAGEMENT paying 15K to the operator............

The industry is in a constant state of flux

But even high time operators have made mistakes........ you know the ones ex mil or even ex large dinero flying in WX they should not in something like C182 or Citabrias thinking they are top of the game

Part 141 schools will probably be eval'd by the FAA as they should.  But blaming the pilot mills isn't going to solve it.

Not every 141 or 61 school is out chasing ice in their C172 and C182's and nor should they

Ask a few Caravan drivers about their icing experiences and they some how got their training in 141/ 61 schools and some may have even got their FAA Certs from a "flying mill."

AND as Keith states this is nothing new....It's only new to you folks 25 0r 30 yrs old.....

If it were not for 121 operators, the majors wouldn't even get their passengers to their locations.  Thank God for those low time or high time 121 drivers out there that hang their fannies whether or not its VFR or IFR

Gotta have faith and trust in something.  I will still fly with low timers.......there's PLENTY in CAP

[flyguy06]

Dont get me wrong. i am one of those low time pilots looking for an airline job ( I have just under 950 TT 60 ME) But I realize my limitations and my lackof knowledge and experience when it comes to certain conditions. Flying a Cessna 172 is very different than flying a turbo prop or a jet.

Also, like was said you chose to get icing experience. Everyone isnt so fortunant. Its gonna be interesting to say the least.This hurst me too becaue now airlines are gonna raise the requirements and I will just keep on flight instructing. I like that job anyway/

[flynd94]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

This whole topic really chaps my britches.  Because in the end, they will put all the blame on the pilots.

I challenge any of you to come fly with me for 1 week.  Here is my avg schedule :

4 Day trip with 29 hours of flying scheduled

Day 1:
6 hours of flying, on duty for 12 hours, get 9 hours of FAA required rest
Day 2:
7 hours of flying, on duty for 9 hours, get 12 hours of FAA required rest
Day 3:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 11 hours, get 8 hours of FAA required rest (reduced rest that requires that I get 10 of comp rest in the next 24 hours)
Day 4:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 15 hours

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Pilot unions have fought hard and, the NTSB has recommended changes to our work rules.  Remember that 9 hours of rest, that starts 15 minutes after we pull into the gate.  When is the last time you saw the plane emptied and, they crew gone in 15 minutes.  It also includes travel time to/from the hotel.  That 9 hours of rest is actually 6 hours, think about it the next time you step on a plane.  Heck, truck drivers have better rest requirements than we do.

Just food for thought

[heliodoc]

Likewise here, flyguy

Right now after flying skydivers, I'd be happy for pipeline patrol for awhile

I'll just be happy to keep studying turbine systems for awhile in wait for even the glamour of firing up a PT6 or a GE CT7

You'll get your turn, flyguy

[flyguy06]

Lets hope so.

[DG]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

This whole topic really chaps my britches.  Because in the end, they will put all the blame on the pilots.

I challenge any of you to come fly with me for 1 week.  Here is my avg schedule :

4 Day trip with 29 hours of flying scheduled

Day 1:
6 hours of flying, on duty for 12 hours, get 9 hours of FAA required rest
Day 2:
7 hours of flying, on duty for 9 hours, get 12 hours of FAA required rest
Day 3:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 11 hours, get 8 hours of FAA required rest (reduced rest that requires that I get 10 of comp rest in the next 24 hours)
Day 4:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 15 hours

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Pilot unions have fought hard and, the NTSB has recommended changes to our work rules.  Remember that 9 hours of rest, that starts 15 minutes after we pull into the gate.  When is the last time you saw the plane emptied and, they crew gone in 15 minutes.  It also includes travel time to/from the hotel.  That 9 hours of rest is actually 6 hours, think about it the next time you step on a plane.  Heck, truck drivers have better rest requirements than we do.

Just food for thought

Now, I believe, you have nailed it.

It is the FAA, as you so well described.

It is the Management, as you so well described.

It is the flying consumer, as you so well described.

No one is blaming the pilots, except for making the choice to endure such difficult working conditions for so little pay.  Why would one do that?  To build turbine flight hours?  In difficult, difficult working conditions?  Without adequate training in actual conditions?

It is one thing to put yourself in that position and get hurt.  It is another thing entirely to put yourself in that position and take 50 innocent souls on board with you.

[DG]

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat. 

Where are you getting your information?

In the 50's and 60's, most airline pilots came from the military.

It was a Glamorous job.

Movie stars wanted to be airline pilots.

[DG]

HOT Flight crew audio panel voice or sound source

CAM Cockpit area microphone voice or sound source

22:10:22.6
HOT-2 is that ice on our windshield?
22:10:25.6
HOT-1 got it on my side. you don't have yours?
22:10:28.7
HOT-1 * [sound of whistle]
22:10:30.5
CAM [sound of click]
22:10:32.3
HOT-2 oh yeah oh it's lots of ice.
22:10:47.5
HOT-1 oh yeah that's the most I've seen— most ice I've seen on the leading
edges in a long time. in a while anyway I should say.
22:10:51.4
HOT-2 oh *.
22:10:57.7
HOT-2 yeah that's another thing. all the guys— @ came in to our when we
interviewed and he said oh yeah you'll all be upgraded in six months into
the Saab and blah ba blah ba blah and I'm thinking you know what. flying
in the northeast I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how
much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual
time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had
when I came here.
22:11:21.0
HOT-1 [sound of laughter]
22:11:22.2
HOT-2 I'm not even kidding. the first day.
22:11:25.7
HOT-1 well that sounds— well I mean I didn't have sixteen hundred hours.
22:11:27.5
HOT [sound similar to altitude alert]
22:11:28.9
HOT-1 five for four alt sel.
22:11:29.8
HOT-2 five four alt sel.
22:11:31.5
HOT-1 but uh as a matter of fact I got hired with about six hundred and twenty
five hours here.
22:11:37.6
HOT-2 oh wow.
22:11:39.4
HOT-1 uh.
22:11:39.9
HOT-2 that's not much for uh back when you got hired.
22:11:42.5
HOT-1 no but uh out of that six and a quarter two hundred fifty hours was uh part
one twenty one turbine. multi engine turbine.
22:11:50.0
HOT-2 oh that's right yeah.
22:11:54.3
HOT-2 no but all these guys are complaining they're saying you know how we
were supposed to upgrade by now and they're complaining I'm thinking
you know what? I really wouldn't mind going through a a winter in the
northeast before I have to upgrade to captain.
HOT-1 no no.
HOT-2 I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

[Rotorhead]

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Did you really just say, "I'm not safe, but it isn't my fault?'

[heliodoc]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

I know at 950 hours what this gentlemen is saying about life with the commuters

I know quite a few people who have said the same things...

Commuters are not like CAP with their shiny new C182's and preaching safety every four hours

THESE GUYS bust their butts and what he , in my humble opinion, is saying, there is no fancy equipment and there are plenty of operators on the ragged edge of what is going on in the industry

These folks are practicing safety, he , in my opinion, again, is explain' the reality of the business

Do not know where you picked up "he isn't safe" or fault

[N Harmon]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Unless we're talking a Cessna Caravan, why should my ticket cover 10% of the cost? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you when it comes to blaming the consumer. This is because the consumer is not making an informed decision. They aren't privy to the pilot's flight history, let alone his/her name. They don't get to look at the maintenance logs of the aircraft, or judge the standards of the airline and compare them to other companies. Sorry, but there is way too much information asymmetry there to expect the consumer to shoulder the blame for low quality.

[Rotorhead]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

"You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. "

That's what I was referring to.

Being off your game can lead to a very bad day.

[Spike]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

NOPE......blame it on Pilot Unions and TWA who wanted to get rid of the "regional flight network".  Pilots demanded that they be allowed to fly direct flights from one city to another instead of stopping at 4 cities between New York and LA.  Blame it on TWA who pressured the other two "big" airlines to buy up all the regional airlines and create "hubs". 

Why did a 5 year veteran pilot from USAIRWAYS rack in over $110,000.000??  GREED on the part of Pilots, the Unions, and Airlines. 

Now it is coming back to bite everyone.  It is hurting Consumers the most.  I would love to see major airlines fold all across the country, and be replaced by regional airlines again. 

Where did the glamor of Air travel go?  It went in the pockets of Airline executives and the airplane pilots.

[flynd94]

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat. 

Where are you getting your information?

In the 50's and 60's, most airline pilots came from the military.

It was a Glamorous job.

Movie stars wanted to be airline pilots.

I got my information from Alpa and, from talking to old timers.  Yes, quite a few came from the military but, many were hired off the street with little experience.

Yes, these pilots made the choice to endure those types of working conditions.  I am a current pilot with Great Lakes Airlines, I was furloughed from Express Jet Airlines last October.  Express Jet provided feed exclusively for Continental Airlines. 

Continental decided we (Express Jet) was too expensive and, replaced us with Colgan.  I would not have lost my job.  My first year at Express, I made right around $25,000 and, would of made $35,000 my second year.  Compare my cost to the Colgan cost.  Continental took the calculated risk of getting rid of us, to save a buck.  They needed to do that to show a profit to their shareholders and, to be competitive with their ticket prices.  This is the sad state of the industry, which has gone down since deregulation.

[flynd94]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

"You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. "

That's what I was referring to.

Being off your game can lead to a very bad day.

Yes, being off my game can lead to a very bad day.  Tell me what I am supposed to do?  Call in sick?  Call in fatigued?

I have done both and, been called into the chief pilots office for a talking too.  I have friends who have been fired for calling in sick/fatigued and, yes they were legit (not sickations).

The company schedules us by the FAR's so, I have no recourse going to the Feds.  The FAA is a screwed up agency.  They are supposed to promote aviation, regulate the airlines and, promote safety.  Unfortunately, the airlines have the FAA in their back pocket.  The NTSB has recommended changes to our rest rules but, the FAA has refused.

PS sorry about replying to each poster, not so smart pilot here.  I can fly an NDB approach, single engine, to the minimums but, computers scare me   

[flynd94]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Unless we're talking a Cessna Caravan, why should my ticket cover 10% of the cost? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you when it comes to blaming the consumer. This is because the consumer is not making an informed decision. They aren't privy to the pilot's flight history, let alone his/her name. They don't get to look at the maintenance logs of the aircraft, or judge the standards of the airline and compare them to other companies. Sorry, but there is way too much information asymmetry there to expect the consumer to shoulder the blame for low quality.

I have to disagree with you.  In order for you to fly $100 round trip, the airline has to cut expenses somewhere.  They generally choose paying their employees.  The glamour of being an airline went away decades ago.  Most of us in the business do it because we simply love flying.  I have the best office in the world.

If you ever fly with me, come on up, I will gladly show you my certs (never failed any checkride), take a look at the maint logs, heck I will even escort you for your own walk around.

[wingnut55]

WE all seem to be overlooking the fact that the Airline choose not to train the Pilots on how to get out of the stall condition and the automatic Yoke shaker. In addition The FAA was ignoring the NTSB on stall training, since the FAA did not require it the Airline looked the other way.

The public is confused by all the hype, even I was shocked at the $16,000 salary for the first officer. What a bunch of crap. Why would any kid go into that field is beyond me.

[flyguy06]

Oh yeah, the pay definantly sucks in the beginning. $15K-23K for the high end regionals. It gets better when youget to the major airlines. And UPS and FedEx are even beter. But it takes years to get tothat level. Like was said earlier, it is the best office in the world, and many folks do it for the love of flying and some think it is stil a presitigious job.

I used t have sjs(shiny jet syndrome) but now If do become an airline pilot, fine, if not, I am ok with that too. I really enjoy instrcuting to tell you the truth.

[DG]

Stocking shelves at a grocery store?

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/05/13/2009-05-13_rebecca_lynn_shaw_copilot_of_doomed_buffalo_flight_3407_was_paid_16000_a_year.html

[heliodoc]

How could anybody here in CAP be shocked about the wages in the regionals

CAPers seem to lead a pretty sheltered aviation life...

SJS shiny jet syndrome exists in CAP, also,

But it sure suprises me as AEO, that the knowledge is not relayed to the membership.

Folks, if you are NOT teaching reality to the cadets and trying to "sell" them about big money aviation, help it out by giving factual info EARLY!  Encourage the love for the job, "cuz it sure "ain't" the pay!!   Not at least till year 10 approx

It is NOT shocking about 15K a year in the regionals....been going on for at least 20 yrs

Ever hear of 22K a teacher or are you all under the assumption that teachers like airline pilots start out at 45K a year??

[BrandonKea]

Geez, I make more as a Communications Specialist dispatching Medical Choppers than these pilots. And I didn't need no schoolin' neither 

[DG]

When you have a pilot who got his license at 14, flew crop dusters at 15, served in the Air Force and flew F-4 Phantom fighters, all before becoming an airline captain, you end up with 155 people surviving an emergency landing in the Hudson.

When you have a pilot who passed through four careers before attending an aviation academy for eight months, who repeatedly flunked flight tests, whose first airline job paid so little he moonlighted at a supermarket, you end up with a plane crash that kills 50 people.

The gaping differences between USAir Flight 1549 Capt. Chesley Sullenberger and Colgan Air Flight 3407 Capt. Marvin Renslow point to a severe degradation in the quality of commercial aviation personnel.

In decades past, airlines had fleets of large jets and relied on spit-shined ex-military officers to fly them. Now, the big carriers farm out many flights to commuter or regional outfits that fly smaller planes and pay pilots as little as $19,000 a year.

As devalued as the work is, the jobs still draw eager young people, as well as career-changers like Renslow, who was 45 when Colgan hired him. In his case, the adage that you get what you pay for came tragically true.

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

The plane began to ice up as Renslow was making a landing approach. First officer Rebecca Shaw, 24, said on the flight recorder that she didn't yet feel competent to captain an iced-over plane. Renslow wasn't up to it either, though there was not enough ice to severely hamper its performance.

When the turboprop's speed fell, causing a stall, he made the wrong move with his yoke. The plane whirled out of control and into a house.

Testifying before Congress after the Miracle in the Hudson, Sullenberger said he didn't know of a single airline pilot who would recommend the profession to his or her children. That's terrifying. How many more Marvin Renslows are up there?


(New York Daily News)

[Auxpilot]

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.
(end quote)

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary. Do any of us know a pilot that has failed so many check rides? All I ever hear is how pilots can't get hired, how the hell does someone with all those failed check rides get an interview, and then a job when there are tons of kids out there with the right stuff??

It's a little scary today to look up into the cockpit and see the kid in the left seat and swear that you saw him at your daughters sweet sixteen party last week but the fact that the pay sucks keeps us middle age guys with years of experience from ever considering a career change.

Not to judge cause any of us could make a stupid mistake in a panic situation but saying that the airline did not train him on stall recovery in the plane that he was flying is a little weak. If the airspeed is low and the stall horn is ringing, every check ride from private to ATP would require that you know what to do. Rule 1 - lower the nose. The stories mention that she raised the flaps but I did not see data on a positive rate of climb or if there was only a partial decrease in flap extension which may be protocol for that aircraft.

Hopefully there is more to this story than we know, otherwise we should all be very afraid to fly on the regional airlines.

[flyguy06]

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.
(end quote)

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary. Do any of us know a pilot that has failed so many check rides? All I ever hear is how pilots can't get hired, how the hell does someone with all those failed check rides get an interview, and then a job when there are tons of kids out there with the right stuff??

It's a little scary today to look up into the cockpit and see the kid in the left seat and swear that you saw him at your daughters sweet sixteen party last week but the fact that the pay sucks keeps us middle age guys with years of experience from ever considering a career change.

Not to judge cause any of us could make a stupid mistake in a panic situation but saying that the airline did not train him on stall recovery in the plane that he was flying is a little weak. If the airspeed is low and the stall horn is ringing, every check ride from private to ATP would require that you know what to do. Rule 1 - lower the nose. The stories mention that she raised the flaps but I did not see data on a positive rate of climb or if there was only a partial decrease in flap extension which may be protocol for that aircraft.

Hopefully there is more to this story than we know, otherwise we should all be very afraid to fly on the regional airlines.

I hear what youare saying and i agree to a certain extent. It is amazing that a guy with this rerocd got an airlione job when there are so many other more qualified people. It really comes down to does the airline "like you" Can they stand to be inthe cockpit with you for hours on end.

But dont jusge him based on his sage. You say its amazing to you to look into the cockpit and see a guy that you swore was at your daughters birthday party.

well, dont forget you have 22 years olds flying F-16's and C-130's in the USAF. Granted the training they recieve is a lotmore fast paced and military pilots are a differnt kind of ilot than airline pilots. But age does not equal skill level.

experience and how quickly a person picks up materials deterines skill level.

[sardak]

He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

I have not read all of the news on this, and have yet to find a news story that is accurate when it comes to aviation but if the above is true, its more than scary.

Here is the link to the documentation released by the NTSB so far, including the training records of the captain and FO, noting the unsatisfactory performance on the check rides.

Mike

[Trung Si Ma]

I'm just glad they haven't entered a CAPF5 into the record.

[flyguy06]

This is sad when a mans recrd is pasted all over the internet. I feel sorry for him and his family. Its bad enough he is deceased but now folks are posted his personal failures for the world to see. Sometimes technology is not a good thing.

[heliodoc]

Yes technology is great for airing out the laundry

We can all speculate here at CAPer Talk

Can't say I have flown much ice in my career and I would sure hate to have a bunch of amateurs other than the NTSB and FAA pour over my flying record

EVERYONE in the Biz starts somewhere.  These folks, obviously were in over their heads and now one pilots (captain) is being "evaluated" here at CAPerTalk

I will not partake any further in this thread, only to say....YOU folks were not there that night and I was not either.  Whether the person "failed" so many checkrides, blah blah

Go on and rake the pilot over the coals

The coal raking needs to be addressed at MANAGEMENT and the Stan Eval Dept for letting it go this far.  A Triple P ...ss. poor performing Stan and Chief check pilot

Oh yeah and keep on keepin on by blaming the FAA.  MAYBE the Colgan needs a PROFESSIONAL training dept.  MAYBE the company now needs to keep welllllll ahead of the FAA

[DG]

MAYBE the Colgan needs a PROFESSIONAL training dept.  MAYBE the company now needs to keep welllllll ahead of the FAA

Maybe the company won't exist......,

After the PI attorneys are done with them.

[flyguy06]

When you have a pilot who got his license at 14, flew crop dusters at 15, served in the Air Force and flew F-4 Phantom fighters, all before becoming an airline captain, you end up with 155 people surviving an emergency landing in the Hudson.

When you have a pilot who passed through four careers before attending an aviation academy for eight months, who repeatedly flunked flight tests, whose first airline job paid so little he moonlighted at a supermarket, you end up with a plane crash that kills 50 people.

The gaping differences between USAir Flight 1549 Capt. Chesley Sullenberger and Colgan Air Flight 3407 Capt. Marvin Renslow point to a severe degradation in the quality of commercial aviation personnel.

In decades past, airlines had fleets of large jets and relied on spit-shined ex-military officers to fly them. Now, the big carriers farm out many flights to commuter or regional outfits that fly smaller planes and pay pilots as little as $19,000 a year.

As devalued as the work is, the jobs still draw eager young people, as well as career-changers like Renslow, who was 45 when Colgan hired him. In his case, the adage that you get what you pay for came tragically true.

By the time he took the controls on the Feb. 12 Newark-to-Buffalo flight, he'd failed tests for his instrument, commercial, multiengine and air transport pilot ratings. He'd also flunked two proficiency checks with Colgan.

The plane began to ice up as Renslow was making a landing approach. First officer Rebecca Shaw, 24, said on the flight recorder that she didn't yet feel competent to captain an iced-over plane. Renslow wasn't up to it either, though there was not enough ice to severely hamper its performance.

When the turboprop's speed fell, causing a stall, he made the wrong move with his yoke. The plane whirled out of control and into a house.

Testifying before Congress after the Miracle in the Hudson, Sullenberger said he didn't know of a single airline pilot who would recommend the profession to his or her children. That's terrifying. How many more Marvin Renslows are up there?


(New York Daily News)

Airlines arent hiring military people like they used to. The reason is because more and more people are not going into the military to fly jets like they uesd to back in the 70's and 80's. Also people that are in the military are staying in due to the economy. So, the airlines have to start hiring from outside of the military.

ANd btw, I am one of those "career changers" Iam 40. Been in a nin aviation related job in themilitary for 20 years and now I want to get into the aviation industry. i had no choice. die to my vision I couldnt get a pilot slot. So you know, it happens.

[Rotorhead]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Or we could go further back and blame it on deregulation.

Because there was a time when airfares covered the costs of the flight and also made it possible to pay pilots an adult salary.

Now, however, we have NY to LA flights that actually net the company under $50 profit because consumers have been taught that low prices and fare wars are in their best interest.

[N Harmon]

In order for you to fly $100 round trip, the airline has to cut expenses somewhere.  They generally choose paying their employees.

I am not a pilot, and the closest I come to running an airline is FS Economy. However I do know a thing or two about economics. Airlines have high fixed costs and low marginal costs. In other words, it costs a LOT of money to get an airplane from point A to point B, but once that's been paid for it costs very little to add another passenger.

The dilemma with an airline is that if everybody paid $100 for a ticket, you would never cover the fixed costs. But if you charged more, then less people would buy tickets, and you still would not cover the fixed costs. So what you have to do is leverage the low marginal costs, and you do that by introducing price discrimination.

For example, while I may have paid $100 for my ticket, the guy sitting next to me probably paid more. Why is that? Well, the airline would rather sell me one of their leftover seats for $100 rather than let it go empty. And that really is the alternative because for a lot of people who buy those low fare tickets, the alternative is to simply not go at all.

That is why even if you did force higher prices with regulation, you simply would not solve the financial problems because you would not be able to fill the airplanes.

And even if you did manage to increase profits with regulated pricing. That won't magically increase the flight crew's salaries. Labor works on supply and demand too, and the way in which airlines are able to pay their pilots low wages is because there are so many pilots willing to fly for them.

It's a crummy situation. The only thing you can really do is evaluate if pilots overall are safe, and if they are not, raise the licensing standards.

If you ever fly with me, come on up, I will gladly show you my certs (never failed any checkride), take a look at the maint logs, heck I will even escort you for your own walk around.

I respect your willingness toward openness, but it sort of misses the point. Byt the time I board your plane, I've already purchased my ticket. Now, if we could get the airlines to publish all of that along with the flights...and I could choose to either save $20 and fly with a guy who failed two of his last three check rides, or fly with you. And if I still chose to save the $20: At that point I would say you could blame the customer.

Or we could go further back and blame it on deregulation.

Because there was a time when airfares covered the costs of the flight and also made it possible to pay pilots an adult salary.

Now, however, we have NY to LA flights that actually net the company under $50 profit because consumers have been taught that low prices and fare wars are in their best interest.

And how would higher fares be in their best interest?

[desertengineer1]

One thing that annoyed me was an early comment, made on CNN to the effect...

"We have a report that the pilot failed a simulator training session XXX years ago..."

Show me a pilot (civilian or military) who has never failed a sim ride sometime in their career.  Anyone who claims otherwise is someone I don't want to be a passenger of.

My prayers for everyone involved in this tragedy. 

[JC004]

...
blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it
...

note: I do not own this airline.

[sparks]

Airline economics are a joke. The adage is still true, to make a small fortune in aviation start with a large one. Owning an airline must be extremely attractive, many have lost everything following that seductive mistress. That includes legacy carriers and startups. I don't have that looooooong list of former airlines. 

High fixed costs with unpredictable fuel prices and low fares that won't pay the bills results in a lot of red ink.

Does all of this result in less experienced crews, maybe.

[JC004]

Airline economics are a joke. The adage is still true, to make a small fortune in aviation start with a large one. Owning an airline must be extremely attractive, many have lost everything following that seductive mistress. That includes legacy carriers and startups. I don't have that looooooong list of former airlines. 

High fixed costs with unpredictable fuel prices and low fares that won't pay the bills results in a lot of red ink.

Does all of this result in less experienced crews, maybe.

Well, you have US Airways which declares bankruptcy once or twice a day, and most other airlines end up in the red at some point too.  Southwest is the ONLY airline that pulls a profit every single year.

[Rotorhead]

In order for you to fly $100 round trip, the airline has to cut expenses somewhere.  They generally choose paying their employees.

I am not a pilot, and the closest I come to running an airline is FS Economy. However I do know a thing or two about economics. Airlines have high fixed costs and low marginal costs. In other words, it costs a LOT of money to get an airplane from point A to point B, but once that's been paid for it costs very little to add another passenger.

The dilemma with an airline is that if everybody paid $100 for a ticket, you would never cover the fixed costs. But if you charged more, then less people would buy tickets, and you still would not cover the fixed costs. So what you have to do is leverage the low marginal costs, and you do that by introducing price discrimination.

For example, while I may have paid $100 for my ticket, the guy sitting next to me probably paid more. Why is that? Well, the airline would rather sell me one of their leftover seats for $100 rather than let it go empty. And that really is the alternative because for a lot of people who buy those low fare tickets, the alternative is to simply not go at all.

That is why even if you did force higher prices with regulation, you simply would not solve the financial problems because you would not be able to fill the airplanes.

And even if you did manage to increase profits with regulated pricing. That won't magically increase the flight crew's salaries. Labor works on supply and demand too, and the way in which airlines are able to pay their pilots low wages is because there are so many pilots willing to fly for them.

It's a crummy situation. The only thing you can really do is evaluate if pilots overall are safe, and if they are not, raise the licensing standards.

If you ever fly with me, come on up, I will gladly show you my certs (never failed any checkride), take a look at the maint logs, heck I will even escort you for your own walk around.

I respect your willingness toward openness, but it sort of misses the point. Byt the time I board your plane, I've already purchased my ticket. Now, if we could get the airlines to publish all of that along with the flights...and I could choose to either save $20 and fly with a guy who failed two of his last three check rides, or fly with you. And if I still chose to save the $20: At that point I would say you could blame the customer.

Or we could go further back and blame it on deregulation.

Because there was a time when airfares covered the costs of the flight and also made it possible to pay pilots an adult salary.

Now, however, we have NY to LA flights that actually net the company under $50 profit because consumers have been taught that low prices and fare wars are in their best interest.

And how would higher fares be in their best interest?

Because with fares that cover costs, the airlines don't have to cut corners to make a profit or hire low-time pilots and give them OJT (hour-building) with an aircraft full of passengers.

[N Harmon]

Because with fares that cover costs, the airlines don't have to cut corners to make a profit or hire low-time pilots and give them OJT (hour-building) with an aircraft full of passengers.

But there is a flaw with that reasoning. You are assuming that the passengers all have low price elasticity, and that they will continue to demand tickets regardless of the higher fares. But in reality, that is only true for a small segment of an airline's customer base. Most of their customers have moderate to high price elasticity.

What this means in english is that a good number of those passengers simply won't buy tickets at the higher price. They'll either drive, or vacation somewhere else. The result will be planes that fly near empty.

[Spike]

Because with fares that cover costs, the airlines don't have to cut corners to make a profit or hire low-time pilots and give them OJT (hour-building) with an aircraft full of passengers.

Hmm.....maybe we should not be paying airline pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars??

10 years ago USAIR(WAYS) paid pilots with 5 years of service to the company $101,000

It is never the passengers fault, it is poor management, unions, and pilots that hurt airlines.

[Rotorhead]

Because with fares that cover costs, the airlines don't have to cut corners to make a profit or hire low-time pilots and give them OJT (hour-building) with an aircraft full of passengers.

Hmm.....maybe we should not be paying airline pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars??

10 years ago USAIR(WAYS) paid pilots with 5 years of service to the company $101,000

It is never the passengers fault, it is poor management, unions, and pilots that hurt airlines.

I'm not really saying it is.

I am saying that, thanks to deregulation, airlines have taught them to expect unrealistically low fares--and thus they can't pay for experienced pilots any longer.

And I don't believe that higher airfares across the board would cause people to stop flying. That sounds like an airline marketing rep speaking.

[MikeD]

I hate to say it but here it is.  As an engineer working a split between NASA Fundamental Aeronautics and Aviation Safety, between what I see personally and what I hear from other NASA coworkers, I feel much much safer flying backseat in one of the first F-15s ever made, or even in an F-18 older then me, on some kind of crazy mission only NASA would do, then I do flying commercial on a long-haul, let alone regional. 

Not the fault of the pilots, just a fault of the system as a whole.  When NASA or the AF does an investigation, there's the safety investigation where individual testimony is privileged and no one person is going to get a sensitive body part nailed to the wall.   That lets us find out what actually happened and fix the problem rather then worry about who to pin the blame on.  Until we can get a system like that in place for all of the incidents and close calls in commercial aviation, things will be in bad shape since we won't know what to fix. 

[DG]

Because with fares that cover costs, the airlines don't have to cut corners to make a profit or hire low-time pilots and give them OJT (hour-building) with an aircraft full of passengers.

Hmm.....maybe we should not be paying airline pilots hundreds of thousands of dollars??

10 years ago USAIR(WAYS) paid pilots with 5 years of service to the company $101,000

It is never the passengers fault, it is poor management, unions, and pilots that hurt airlines.

And six years ago Airways went Bankrupt.

What's your point?

[JC004]

I'm not really saying it is.

I am saying that, thanks to deregulation, airlines have taught them to expect unrealistically low fares--and thus they can't pay for experienced pilots any longer.

And I don't believe that higher airfares across the board would cause people to stop flying. That sounds like an airline marketing rep speaking.

There's quite a number of factors here, unions included.  Higher fares would create quite a market adjustment with a reduced number of flights and could significantly impact quantities of passengers.  As discussed here, the profit margin is already thin.  I know of an airline born of deregulation that doesn't crash airplanes into the ground.

[PHall]

I'm not really saying it is.

I am saying that, thanks to deregulation, airlines have taught them to expect unrealistically low fares--and thus they can't pay for experienced pilots any longer.

And I don't believe that higher airfares across the board would cause people to stop flying. That sounds like an airline marketing rep speaking.

There's quite a number of factors here, unions included.  Higher fares would create quite a market adjustment with a reduced number of flights and could significantly impact quantities of passengers.  As discussed here, the profit margin is already thin.  I know of an airline born of deregulation that doesn't crash airplanes into the ground.

No, they just run off the ends of runways. And they did it twice! (MDY and BUR)

Not even "well run" airlines are exempt from people being stupid.

[JC004]

That's a pretty good record, me thinks.  I think at least the one was ice IIRC.  I don't know that I'd want to be skidding around in something that big on ice.  Sounds a bit scary.  I am willing to (and do) put my life on that record nonetheless.  I think having big monopolies in airlines is a bigger threat since they would be huge and untouchable (and acting accordingly). 

[PHall]

That's a pretty good record, me thinks.  I think at least the one was ice IIRC.  I don't know that I'd want to be skidding around in something that big on ice.  Sounds a bit scary.  I am willing to (and do) put my life on that record nonetheless.  I think having big monopolies in airlines is a bigger threat since they would be huge and untouchable (and acting accordingly).

I've been in aircraft that land on ice runways (C-141C @ Mc Murdo Station, Antarctica), it's not a big thing if you touchdown at the charted touchdown speed and follow the procedures for landing on slick runways.

The two incidents referred to above both have one common cause, touched down at least 10-15 knots fast and did not aggressively attempt to slow the aircraft.
This is as per the NTSB reports.

Landing on a slick runway is one time when you do not want a "grease job" landing.
You want to plant the tires so that they can get some friction with the runway surface right away so your wheel brakes will be effective.

Because, to paraphrase an old statement, one of the most useless things in the world is runway behind you.

[heliodoc]

Whether or not folks "wanna" read the life as recorded by the 121 operators

I strongly encourage the CAP er community to READ the ASRS reports in the 121 category

Whether or not folks want to call the reports sour grapes because of "attitude" or what not........

This gives a pretty good synopsis about the life of the regionals whether or not they are "experienced" aircrews or not

This will give valuable insights that whether or not these folks are 250 hr wonders or 6000 hr regional drivers...

CAPer drivers can assume and speculate all about this subject........But the pilots writing 121 "astronaut forms" can not be wrong, high timers or low timers

These folks are "PROFESSIONALS."  Just as professional as any CAP aircrew

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ I agree!  Well put.

The media was quick to blame the pilot.  What a terrible blow to his family, and all the families that lost someone on this flight.  I strongly believe the transcripts should never be released, except to the Government Officials and the immediate families of the victims.  There are already too many videos on the internet making fun of tragedies like this. 

What in the world would be the last words out of your mouth when you know you have a second to live. 

Stupid media, stupid government for reporting on it like they currently do.

One simple statement as to what happened, why it happened and how others can prevent it from happening again is all that is needed.  Everything else is opinion and belief, not fact.

Sometimes the Government and the News Media are such an embarrassment.

I love media types who have never touched the controls of an airplane telling us that a pilot was unqualified.

Or a reporterette with zero days of active military duty and who never read the Geneva Convention telling us about how to handle prisoners from Afghanistan

Or the media freak who has never touched a gun or ever been in a fistfight telling us that the police over-reacted in a gun battle, and should have shot more accurately.

My personal life experience forces me to put media types below lawyers in the "Chain of Disrespect."  Frankly, I believe very little of what they say, since they usually have no idea of what they are talking about.

[bosshawk]

Kach: I'm with you all the way.  I had my personal falling out with the media when I was in VN in 1966.  They were lying and mis-reporting stuff back then and refusing to admit that they were writing stories about combat operations from the luxury of a hotel veranda in Saigon.  The ones who write about aviation are usually the newest and least experienced of the bunch.  Their knowledge of flying stops at the airliner door the last time that they flew somewhere.  But: oh boy, are they experts??

[flyguy06]

^ I agree!  Well put.

The media was quick to blame the pilot.  What a terrible blow to his family, and all the families that lost someone on this flight.  I strongly believe the transcripts should never be released, except to the Government Officials and the immediate families of the victims.  There are already too many videos on the internet making fun of tragedies like this. 

What in the world would be the last words out of your mouth when you know you have a second to live. 

Stupid media, stupid government for reporting on it like they currently do.

One simple statement as to what happened, why it happened and how others can prevent it from happening again is all that is needed.  Everything else is opinion and belief, not fact.

Sometimes the Government and the News Media are such an embarrassment.

I love media types who have never touched the controls of an airplane telling us that a pilot was unqualified.

Or a reporterette with zero days of active military duty and who never read the Geneva Convention telling us about how to handle prisoners from Afghanistan

Or the media freak who has never touched a gun or ever been in a fistfight telling us that the police over-reacted in a gun battle, and should have shot more accurately.

My personal life experience forces me to put media types below lawyers in the "Chain of Disrespect."  Frankly, I believe very little of what they say, since they usually have no idea of what they are talking about.

well John,

I have touched the controls and I know somthing about pursuing an airline career and I can tell you thatthere a lot of pilots out there that are not qualified to flying a Regional jet full of passengers. Airlines last year were hiring folks with 500 hours total time. Thats ridiculously low. These kids just graudted fromcollege and flightinstructed to build enough time to get on with a regional.

I think a lot of times the media reports stories inaccuratly, btu a lot of times, they get it dead on. In this case I am glad that the non pilot public has been exposed to what regional pilots go through and he qualityof pilots airlines are hiring. Maybe airlines will change their standards and stop paying new hires $18,000. You get what you pay for.

[Gunner C]

There were several things that put that plane in the dirt, and none of them by themselves was fatal (subject to the final NTSB report).  But that's the way it is with aviation accidents.  It's the chain of events that killed those people.

The airlines can mitigate the danger, but there will always be a confluence of events that will cause another tragedy.  The economics, pilot experience, wx, mx, traffic, controller experience, and even the ride to the airport all play a part.  Until every factor is removed (impossible) there will be accidents. 

We can only make them farther apart.  That's what the media doesn't get.

[N Harmon]

And I don't believe that higher airfares across the board would cause people to stop flying. That sounds like an airline marketing rep speaking.

It would cause me to stop flying. And I doubt I would be alone in that. What makes you believe otherwise? It seems to me that you're having a hard time reconciling basic economic principles with your own personal world view. Marketing rep speaking? Feh.

Airlines last year were hiring folks with 500 hours total time. Thats ridiculously low.

How is it ridiculously low? It doesn't seem so ridiculous if we're talking first officers, but that may just be me. Do you have any facts that support this? Like, how often it is the 500 hour pilots getting into accidents versus the multi-thousand hour pilots? I took a look at some domestic incidents in the past 7-8 years and it looked like every single one involved pilots with multi-thousand hours.

Perhaps safety isn't so directly proportional to flight experience. Perhaps there is a point around 2,000 hours where a pilot assumes he/she knows everything and thus lets his/her guard down.

Maybe airlines will change their standards and stop paying new hires $18,000. You get what you pay for.

Maybe. But as long as there are people who love to fly and are willing to do it for $18,000/year, the salaries will probably follow that supply curve.

[flynd94]

Well, I guess you should enjoy driving then.  If you compare the price of a current ticket (NYC-LAX) to pre-deregulation prices you will see the problem.  Adjusted for inflation, it is cheaper to fly today then it was then.  The price of tickets has not kept up with inflation.  Americans want everything cheap but, don't realize that there are repercussions to this need.  Maybe all professional pilots should stage a walk out... wait American Airlines tried that but, Pres. Clinton ordered them back to work.  Labor has no muscle, the ball is in/has been in mgmt's court for years. 

500 hours in a cockpit is scary, even if its a FO.  They are supposed to be able to assist the CA in flying the aircraft.  My friends at different regional airlines that are CA's complain about the lack of airmanship of the new FO's.  They warn me that being in the left seat (CA) is like being a flight instructor again.  As a new CA, I am not looking forward to that.  I don't want to be flying single pilot again (spent time as a freight dog).

For the gentleman who thinks SWA is the cat's meow.  They have their own problems now.  The last 2 quarters they have been unprofitable.  They had an advantage for decades because they didn't have any legacy costs (salaries/pensions).  Well, the cat has come home to roost.  Plus, their fuel hedging advantage has ended.  I have many friends over at SWA that are truly concerned about their future.  Also, as PHall stated landing on an icy runway isn't that tough.  Plant the darn plane, put it down in the touchdown zone and you are fine.  Read the NTSB reports on their issues.

Finally, here is my personal rant.  What you are seeing with the airlines is what I like to call the "Wal Martization of America".  We all want everything dirt cheap but, with all the bennies.  Pretty soon the USA will not be the world leader in anything.  JMHO

[N Harmon]

I do enjoy driving although it helps having an automobile that is enjoyable to drive. But let's be clear, for a lot of destinations the choice is clearly to fly. And what factors into that, in large part for most customers, is the price. To say that the demand for air travel is so inelastic as to not respond to pricing differences, is a sure fire way to go out of business.

Adjusted for inflation, it is cheaper to fly today then it was then. The price of tickets has not kept up with inflation.

Well, I would question why we would expect flying to stay the same in terms of inflation-adjusted costs. Why wouldn't we expect the prices to go down as they have in other areas?

Americans want everything cheap but, don't realize that there are repercussions to this need.

Honestly? It isn't just Americans. And the fault of their (our) ignorance on the repercussions of flying discount airlines isn't entirely our own. The system as a whole is designed to give the consumer an impression of universal safety with the only disparity being price. In such a situation why wouldn't you expect customers to simply fly the cheaper airline.

500 hours in a cockpit is scary, even if its a FO.

I have not found a single domestic airline fatality where the PIC or SIC was a 500 hour boy wonder. I will admit that I only looked at a handful of cases in the past 8 years or so, but still. Where are the numbers?

And if a pilot isn't ready at 500 hours, then perhaps the licensing standards need to be higher. Again, not really something the consumer has control over.

Finally, here is my personal rant.  What you are seeing with the airlines is what I like to call the "Wal Martization of America".  We all want everything dirt cheap but, with all the bennies.  Pretty soon the USA will not be the world leader in anything.  JMHO

The USA does not have to be the world leader in anything, nor is it a tragedy if it is not the world leader in everything. "Wal-martization"? Meh. I happen to like Wal-Mart.

[Rotorhead]

"Wal-martization"? Meh. I happen to like Wal-Mart.

I think I get it now.

You want everything to be cheap. You seem to believe there is no correlation between the cost of a product or service and its quality.

Pull your head out of the sand.

You really do get what you pay for in this world.

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ I agree!  Well put.

The media was quick to blame the pilot.  What a terrible blow to his family, and all the families that lost someone on this flight.  I strongly believe the transcripts should never be released, except to the Government Officials and the immediate families of the victims.  There are already too many videos on the internet making fun of tragedies like this. 

What in the world would be the last words out of your mouth when you know you have a second to live. 

Stupid media, stupid government for reporting on it like they currently do.

One simple statement as to what happened, why it happened and how others can prevent it from happening again is all that is needed.  Everything else is opinion and belief, not fact.

Sometimes the Government and the News Media are such an embarrassment.

I love media types who have never touched the controls of an airplane telling us that a pilot was unqualified.

Or a reporterette with zero days of active military duty and who never read the Geneva Convention telling us about how to handle prisoners from Afghanistan

Or the media freak who has never touched a gun or ever been in a fistfight telling us that the police over-reacted in a gun battle, and should have shot more accurately.

My personal life experience forces me to put media types below lawyers in the "Chain of Disrespect."  Frankly, I believe very little of what they say, since they usually have no idea of what they are talking about.

well John,

I have touched the controls and I know somthing about pursuing an airline career and I can tell you thatthere a lot of pilots out there that are not qualified to flying a Regional jet full of passengers. Airlines last year were hiring folks with 500 hours total time. Thats ridiculously low. These kids just graudted fromcollege and flightinstructed to build enough time to get on with a regional.

I think a lot of times the media reports stories inaccuratly, btu a lot of times, they get it dead on. In this case I am glad that the non pilot public has been exposed to what regional pilots go through and he qualityof pilots airlines are hiring. Maybe airlines will change their standards and stop paying new hires $18,000. You get what you pay for.

"I think a lot of times the media gets it inaccurately, but a lot of times they get it dead on."

There was this little boy who was detailed to watch a flock of sheep, and was instructed to shout "Wolf" should such a predatory animal appear. 

After he shouted "Wolf" several times when no wolf was present, the town began to ignore his shouts.  When an actual wolf appeared, the kid became dinner because nobody came to help.

In the last 15 to 20 years American journalism has gone down the dumper.  The old standards of integrity are laughed at by the current generation of reporters and reporterettes.

One by one people are realizing that journalists are not to be trusted.  If they can't find news, they make it up.  If they don't understand the nuances and technical aspects of a story, they report nonsensical babble.

I think you are right.  500 hours for a first officer probably is insufficient.  It might be OK if paired with a very seasoned captain, but the way airlines are currently run, such attention to assignment is unlikely to happen.  I believe you that there are some 500-hour first officers out there.  I would not believe it if I read it in one of the left-wing rags currently posing as newspapers.

[BrandonKea]

http://www.ketv.com/news/19677507/detail.html

Interesting article, I apologize for the local link, couldn't find the AP article...

[DG]

The Buffalo crash has brought to light a situation that everyone knew was bad, but no one knew how bad.

These young pilots don't seem to know any better.