NTSB: Pilot of Doomed Buffalo Plane 'Was Slow Learning' to Operate the Aircraft

[Pumbaa]

Just seconds before the worst U.S. air crash in more than seven years, the pilot said "Jesus Christ" and moments later his first officer screamed as Flight 3407 plunged to the ground.

A cockpit voice recorder transcript released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board show that only minutes before the Feb. 12 crash on approach to Buffalo, Captain Marvin Renslow and First Officer Rebecca Shaw chatted about her career and shared their fear of flying in icy weather.

Transcripts
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/buffalo_cockpit_transcript.pdf

Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519906,00.html

[flyguy06]

This was a tradgedy in deed. Unfortunantly its going to affect a lot of low time pilots seeking that first airline job. I forsee airlines stop hiring 200-500 hour pilots like they have been doing in the past. The will probably go back to hirong 1500 hour plus pilots.

This has definantly not been good press for low time pilot or regional airlines. But it is a lesson.

[DG]

This was only inevitable.  With what is going on in the commuter airline business.

And has been going on for some time now.

Hiring low-time 18 and 19 year old pilots and paying them only $15,000 / year.

Many of them coming from Part 141 schools and ATP mills.  With no real flying ability or confidence.

FAA legal.  But not ready for a real test in actual conditions.

They know who they are.

This is just what Captain Sullenberger was referring to when he voiced his fear and sadness for the future of pilots in the airline business.

[flynd94]

Just seconds before the worst U.S. air crash in more than seven years, the pilot said "Jesus Christ" and moments later his first officer screamed as Flight 3407 plunged to the ground.

A cockpit voice recorder transcript released Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board show that only minutes before the Feb. 12 crash on approach to Buffalo, Captain Marvin Renslow and First Officer Rebecca Shaw chatted about her career and shared their fear of flying in icy weather.

Transcripts
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/buffalo_cockpit_transcript.pdf

Article
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519906,00.html

Ok Rant is about to start.

What do you expect us (I am a Part 121 Captain, flying the Beech 1900D) to say into the CVR when we are going down?  I know I joke with my family that my last words will be "I love you".  Do you have a suggestion?  Please let me know.

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat.  I have seen pilots with 2000+ hours not get it and, flown with 100+ hour pilots who get it.  Being a pilot requires a bit of a "god's gift".  Yes, you can train a person to be a somewhat decent pilot but, then their are the ones that have the "right stuff".

Also, getting icing experience is not that easy.  I was lucky and flew Part 135, single pilot IFR for awhile.  I got a great education on icing but, I learned it all on my own.  I watched the FAA video presentation on icing but, nothing replaces personal experience.  Something that taught me a lot but, many a time I landed, then kissed the ground.  The old adage, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

I will not guess on what brought the Q400 down in BUF.  I know what I believe happened.  I pray for all the lives that were lost.

Keith

[Spike]

^ I agree!  Well put.

The media was quick to blame the pilot.  What a terrible blow to his family, and all the families that lost someone on this flight.  I strongly believe the transcripts should never be released, except to the Government Officials and the immediate families of the victims.  There are already too many videos on the internet making fun of tragedies like this. 

What in the world would be the last words out of your mouth when you know you have a second to live. 

Stupid media, stupid government for reporting on it like they currently do.

One simple statement as to what happened, why it happened and how others can prevent it from happening again is all that is needed.  Everything else is opinion and belief, not fact.

Sometimes the Government and the News Media are such an embarrassment. 

[heliodoc]

I also understand that if one comes from SW USA to the NE Corridor, the flying is quite different and everyone here knows that.

I am happy to see a 121 1900D operator commenting here.  Buddies of mine flew DHC Twin Otters for Crown Air back in the 90's.  They even said coming from the Midwest with 1200 hours under your belt DID NOT make you an expert in the field.  The WX there was Hotel Sierra 80+% of the time

We can all speculate how the industry is going to go

Blame the low time pilots is easy.... Let's look at the MANAGEMENT paying 15K to the operator............

The industry is in a constant state of flux

But even high time operators have made mistakes........ you know the ones ex mil or even ex large dinero flying in WX they should not in something like C182 or Citabrias thinking they are top of the game

Part 141 schools will probably be eval'd by the FAA as they should.  But blaming the pilot mills isn't going to solve it.

Not every 141 or 61 school is out chasing ice in their C172 and C182's and nor should they

Ask a few Caravan drivers about their icing experiences and they some how got their training in 141/ 61 schools and some may have even got their FAA Certs from a "flying mill."

AND as Keith states this is nothing new....It's only new to you folks 25 0r 30 yrs old.....

If it were not for 121 operators, the majors wouldn't even get their passengers to their locations.  Thank God for those low time or high time 121 drivers out there that hang their fannies whether or not its VFR or IFR

Gotta have faith and trust in something.  I will still fly with low timers.......there's PLENTY in CAP

[flyguy06]

Dont get me wrong. i am one of those low time pilots looking for an airline job ( I have just under 950 TT 60 ME) But I realize my limitations and my lackof knowledge and experience when it comes to certain conditions. Flying a Cessna 172 is very different than flying a turbo prop or a jet.

Also, like was said you chose to get icing experience. Everyone isnt so fortunant. Its gonna be interesting to say the least.This hurst me too becaue now airlines are gonna raise the requirements and I will just keep on flight instructing. I like that job anyway/

[flynd94]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

This whole topic really chaps my britches.  Because in the end, they will put all the blame on the pilots.

I challenge any of you to come fly with me for 1 week.  Here is my avg schedule :

4 Day trip with 29 hours of flying scheduled

Day 1:
6 hours of flying, on duty for 12 hours, get 9 hours of FAA required rest
Day 2:
7 hours of flying, on duty for 9 hours, get 12 hours of FAA required rest
Day 3:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 11 hours, get 8 hours of FAA required rest (reduced rest that requires that I get 10 of comp rest in the next 24 hours)
Day 4:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 15 hours

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Pilot unions have fought hard and, the NTSB has recommended changes to our work rules.  Remember that 9 hours of rest, that starts 15 minutes after we pull into the gate.  When is the last time you saw the plane emptied and, they crew gone in 15 minutes.  It also includes travel time to/from the hotel.  That 9 hours of rest is actually 6 hours, think about it the next time you step on a plane.  Heck, truck drivers have better rest requirements than we do.

Just food for thought

[heliodoc]

Likewise here, flyguy

Right now after flying skydivers, I'd be happy for pipeline patrol for awhile

I'll just be happy to keep studying turbine systems for awhile in wait for even the glamour of firing up a PT6 or a GE CT7

You'll get your turn, flyguy

[flyguy06]

Lets hope so.

[DG]

Boy, I need to stop watching TV or, going to websites about this crash.  Want someone to blame here you go:

blame the FAA, they had to sign off on Colgan's training program and, monitor it

Blame Continental Airlines to subcontracting out the flying to Colgan to save a buck

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

This whole topic really chaps my britches.  Because in the end, they will put all the blame on the pilots.

I challenge any of you to come fly with me for 1 week.  Here is my avg schedule :

4 Day trip with 29 hours of flying scheduled

Day 1:
6 hours of flying, on duty for 12 hours, get 9 hours of FAA required rest
Day 2:
7 hours of flying, on duty for 9 hours, get 12 hours of FAA required rest
Day 3:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 11 hours, get 8 hours of FAA required rest (reduced rest that requires that I get 10 of comp rest in the next 24 hours)
Day 4:
8 hours of flying, on duty for 15 hours

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Pilot unions have fought hard and, the NTSB has recommended changes to our work rules.  Remember that 9 hours of rest, that starts 15 minutes after we pull into the gate.  When is the last time you saw the plane emptied and, they crew gone in 15 minutes.  It also includes travel time to/from the hotel.  That 9 hours of rest is actually 6 hours, think about it the next time you step on a plane.  Heck, truck drivers have better rest requirements than we do.

Just food for thought

Now, I believe, you have nailed it.

It is the FAA, as you so well described.

It is the Management, as you so well described.

It is the flying consumer, as you so well described.

No one is blaming the pilots, except for making the choice to endure such difficult working conditions for so little pay.  Why would one do that?  To build turbine flight hours?  In difficult, difficult working conditions?  Without adequate training in actual conditions?

It is one thing to put yourself in that position and get hurt.  It is another thing entirely to put yourself in that position and take 50 innocent souls on board with you.

[DG]

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat. 

Where are you getting your information?

In the 50's and 60's, most airline pilots came from the military.

It was a Glamorous job.

Movie stars wanted to be airline pilots.

[DG]

HOT Flight crew audio panel voice or sound source

CAM Cockpit area microphone voice or sound source

22:10:22.6
HOT-2 is that ice on our windshield?
22:10:25.6
HOT-1 got it on my side. you don't have yours?
22:10:28.7
HOT-1 * [sound of whistle]
22:10:30.5
CAM [sound of click]
22:10:32.3
HOT-2 oh yeah oh it's lots of ice.
22:10:47.5
HOT-1 oh yeah that's the most I've seen— most ice I've seen on the leading
edges in a long time. in a while anyway I should say.
22:10:51.4
HOT-2 oh *.
22:10:57.7
HOT-2 yeah that's another thing. all the guys— @ came in to our when we
interviewed and he said oh yeah you'll all be upgraded in six months into
the Saab and blah ba blah ba blah and I'm thinking you know what. flying
in the northeast I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how
much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual
time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had
when I came here.
22:11:21.0
HOT-1 [sound of laughter]
22:11:22.2
HOT-2 I'm not even kidding. the first day.
22:11:25.7
HOT-1 well that sounds— well I mean I didn't have sixteen hundred hours.
22:11:27.5
HOT [sound similar to altitude alert]
22:11:28.9
HOT-1 five for four alt sel.
22:11:29.8
HOT-2 five four alt sel.
22:11:31.5
HOT-1 but uh as a matter of fact I got hired with about six hundred and twenty
five hours here.
22:11:37.6
HOT-2 oh wow.
22:11:39.4
HOT-1 uh.
22:11:39.9
HOT-2 that's not much for uh back when you got hired.
22:11:42.5
HOT-1 no but uh out of that six and a quarter two hundred fifty hours was uh part
one twenty one turbine. multi engine turbine.
22:11:50.0
HOT-2 oh that's right yeah.
22:11:54.3
HOT-2 no but all these guys are complaining they're saying you know how we
were supposed to upgrade by now and they're complaining I'm thinking
you know what? I really wouldn't mind going through a a winter in the
northeast before I have to upgrade to captain.
HOT-1 no no.
HOT-2 I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

[Rotorhead]

Consider the fact that I fly a B1900D, with no modern conveniences (auto pilot, gps), I have 2 VOR/ILS recievers, DME and a NDB.  Through in doing between 6-12 legs in a day and, if its crap wx, add in 6 approaches.  A majority of this flying is down in the non-radar environment.  No radar vectors, nothing but, arcs/procedure turns.  You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. 

Did you really just say, "I'm not safe, but it isn't my fault?'

[heliodoc]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

I know at 950 hours what this gentlemen is saying about life with the commuters

I know quite a few people who have said the same things...

Commuters are not like CAP with their shiny new C182's and preaching safety every four hours

THESE GUYS bust their butts and what he , in my humble opinion, is saying, there is no fancy equipment and there are plenty of operators on the ragged edge of what is going on in the industry

These folks are practicing safety, he , in my opinion, again, is explain' the reality of the business

Do not know where you picked up "he isn't safe" or fault

[N Harmon]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

Unless we're talking a Cessna Caravan, why should my ticket cover 10% of the cost? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you when it comes to blaming the consumer. This is because the consumer is not making an informed decision. They aren't privy to the pilot's flight history, let alone his/her name. They don't get to look at the maintenance logs of the aircraft, or judge the standards of the airline and compare them to other companies. Sorry, but there is way too much information asymmetry there to expect the consumer to shoulder the blame for low quality.

[Rotorhead]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

"You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. "

That's what I was referring to.

Being off your game can lead to a very bad day.

[Spike]

Blame it on the consumer, yup folks, you the passenger.  You demand that you should be able to fly from Los Angles to New York for $250 round trip, when that doesn't cover 10% of the cost.

NOPE......blame it on Pilot Unions and TWA who wanted to get rid of the "regional flight network".  Pilots demanded that they be allowed to fly direct flights from one city to another instead of stopping at 4 cities between New York and LA.  Blame it on TWA who pressured the other two "big" airlines to buy up all the regional airlines and create "hubs". 

Why did a 5 year veteran pilot from USAIRWAYS rack in over $110,000.000??  GREED on the part of Pilots, the Unions, and Airlines. 

Now it is coming back to bite everyone.  It is hurting Consumers the most.  I would love to see major airlines fold all across the country, and be replaced by regional airlines again. 

Where did the glamor of Air travel go?  It went in the pockets of Airline executives and the airplane pilots.

[flynd94]

Next, they (media, NTSB, etc) are talking about low time pilots being hired to fly Part 121.  Well, I hate to burst your bubble but, this isn't a new thing.  Back in the 50-60's this was very common.  Many pilots were hired with 200 hours, then sat sideways (Flight Engineer) for years before transitioning over to the right seat. 

Where are you getting your information?

In the 50's and 60's, most airline pilots came from the military.

It was a Glamorous job.

Movie stars wanted to be airline pilots.

I got my information from Alpa and, from talking to old timers.  Yes, quite a few came from the military but, many were hired off the street with little experience.

Yes, these pilots made the choice to endure those types of working conditions.  I am a current pilot with Great Lakes Airlines, I was furloughed from Express Jet Airlines last October.  Express Jet provided feed exclusively for Continental Airlines. 

Continental decided we (Express Jet) was too expensive and, replaced us with Colgan.  I would not have lost my job.  My first year at Express, I made right around $25,000 and, would of made $35,000 my second year.  Compare my cost to the Colgan cost.  Continental took the calculated risk of getting rid of us, to save a buck.  They needed to do that to show a profit to their shareholders and, to be competitive with their ticket prices.  This is the sad state of the industry, which has gone down since deregulation.

[flynd94]

Hey Scott,

Where did you pick that up??

"You tell me how I am supposed to be "on my game" on day 4.  Remember all of this is legal, by your government. "

That's what I was referring to.

Being off your game can lead to a very bad day.

Yes, being off my game can lead to a very bad day.  Tell me what I am supposed to do?  Call in sick?  Call in fatigued?

I have done both and, been called into the chief pilots office for a talking too.  I have friends who have been fired for calling in sick/fatigued and, yes they were legit (not sickations).

The company schedules us by the FAR's so, I have no recourse going to the Feds.  The FAA is a screwed up agency.  They are supposed to promote aviation, regulate the airlines and, promote safety.  Unfortunately, the airlines have the FAA in their back pocket.  The NTSB has recommended changes to our rest rules but, the FAA has refused.

PS sorry about replying to each poster, not so smart pilot here.  I can fly an NDB approach, single engine, to the minimums but, computers scare me