CAP Aircraft Purchases

[FW]

Everyone is going "glass cockpit".   Retro fitting our older aircraft with Aspen/Garmin systems will make it easier for us "old timers" to transition into the modern world without too much grief.  Yes, I understand all the arguments pro and con however, change can not be stopped.  Such is life in the U.S of A. 

[Auxpilot]

Auxpilot,

My observation of pilots becoming dependent on technology comes from my experience as a Line Training Captain, Line Check Airmen for a Part 135 freight company.  I had trainee's who didn't have any SA unless they had a moving map in front of them.   This is why I am a firm believer in teaching students in round dial first.  I also believe doing your Instrument rating in a glass cockpit aircraft is an accident waiting to happen. 

Before everyone calls me a old curmudgeon, I am on a 37 year old pro pilot.

As with any complex issue, the underlying problem may not be as clear cut as it appears. Do these trainees lack SA because of the reliance on the glass, or are they coming out of pilot factories that aren't teaching them how to fly? Do they have the stuff to be a pilot in the first place?

You are probably correct to a point but I would not blame the technology for all of the shortcomings. You propose teaching in round dials first; does that mean no GPS at all or just not glass.

I'm not an expert on glass beacuse I have very little experience with it. I do however know that having a GPS, MFD and HSI as proposed in the retrofit plan will make me a lot better (safer) pilot than I would otherwise be without it. Having flown IFR with them I understand the benifits of that equipment in a single pilot world. Carrying that one step further, one would think that the glass would be an improvement over that (that being said I still am not a fan of CAP spending all that money on all glass aircraft).

Does your fear lie in the possibility of the glass failing and the trainee not being able to handle the round dial backup? If so, he should not be able to pass the test without proving that he can indeed fly the plane on backup, which may not be enforced at the flight school level.

BTW I am a lot older than you so my perspective is not as part of the cell phone generation. I was flying ADF/VOR when you were still pretty small and the old timers were saying that the Loran was going to kill a pilots navigation skills so I have witnessed a lot of changes over the years.

[NIN]

While I'm not a licensed airplane driver (yet), I've got a fair amount of time spent aviating, navigating and such like that.

IMHO, anything that helps increase SA is a good thing.  G1000, a Garmin 396, or a nicely folded and bound sectional book that makes it easy for the pilot to keep his finger on his position. I honestly don't give a crap either way, but I want the pilot to be able to know where he is.

Many moons ago, when I was but a young crew chief on Chinooks, one of our pilots gave me his nicely bound book of maps for the entire Korean peninsula. They were the nicely laid out "fold over or fold up" layout, and I would sometimes do my airspace surveillance from the right side of the aircraft with that book on my lap, especially if we were flying someplace I'd never been. 

Well, it happened one day that the the pilot flying thought the pilot navigating was, you know, actually navigating, and the pilot navigating thought the pilot flying must have been doing his job, too, 'cuz suddenly we're out in the middle of nowhere and the two dudes in the front office realize they have no clue where we are about the time we manage to bust the airspace of some podunk ROKAF base (and get yelled at on Guard), and somehow stumble into a restricted area at the same time (and get yelled at on Guard). 

I finally had to pipe up with "We're about 2 miles north of Chungju, and that was Choongwon airbase we just flew over.." from the back, and the pilots are like "Chungju? Where the hell is -that-?"

I mean, GPS is now at least good for *something*. 

(never mind the time we left a field site in highly MVFR conditions,  the overcast sitting right on top of the ridgelines,  went IMC 2-3 times trying cross from one valley into the next and finally realizing we had ZERO idea where we were.  We landed in a rice paddy near the intersection of 3 roads and I got to run over to the road sign and copy down the Hangul and westernized spellings of the towns on the sign so we could compare them to our map...)

[Auxpilot]

(never mind the time we left a field site in highly MVFR conditions,  the overcast sitting right on top of the ridgelines,  went IMC 2-3 times trying cross from one valley into the next and finally realizing we had ZERO idea where we were.  We landed in a rice paddy near the intersection of 3 roads and I got to run over to the road sign and copy down the Hangul and westernized spellings of the towns on the sign so we could compare them to our map...)

Reminds me of a buddy that had to circle a water tower to read the name of a small town to find out where he was. As the old saying goes, use everything in the cockpit to your advantage..... In this case everything out of the cockpit as well.

[NIN]

Reminds me of a buddy that had to circle a water tower to read the name of a small town to find out where he was. As the old saying goes, use everything in the cockpit to your advantage..... In this case everything out of the cockpit as well.

This discussion has been a lot like the ones I encounter every day in my job.  I have to remind people "OK, how did you do that before the technology?" and they look at me like "But..but..."

I *love* flying VFR in a minimally equipped plane: whiskey compass, a turn & slip indicator, altimeter and airspeed...   Gimme a map and some gas..

[FW]

Everyone is going "glass cockpit".   Retro fitting our older aircraft with Aspen/Garmin systems will make it easier for us "old timers" to transition into the modern world without too much grief.  Yes, I understand all the arguments pro and con however, change can not be stopped.  Such is life in the U.S of A. 

Here is the newest refurbed C172 Panel.  I hope you can see the attachment.

[PHall]

Reminds me of a buddy that had to circle a water tower to read the name of a small town to find out where he was. As the old saying goes, use everything in the cockpit to your advantage..... In this case everything out of the cockpit as well.

This discussion has been a lot like the ones I encounter every day in my job.  I have to remind people "OK, how did you do that before the technology?" and they look at me like "But..but..."

I *love* flying VFR in a minimally equipped plane: whiskey compass, a turn & slip indicator, altimeter and airspeed...   Gimme a map and some gas..

It's called "Pilotage" and it's quickly becoming a lost art.

[airdale]

Here is the newest refurbed C172 Panel.

So someone decided they didn't like the standard 6 pack panel layout with the altimeter and airspeed next to the horizon and HSI? i.e., http://www.aspenavionics.com/images/evolution/evolution-img7.jpg

Great.

[Thrashed]

What bugs me about expensive airplanes and even more expensive avionics is how many used steam-gauge aircraft could we buy for the price of a new fancy aircraft?  My group has no aircraft.  I have to drive 1 1/2 hours to beg to fly a plane from another group.  I'd rather see more aircraft than new aircraft.  I don't need fancy instruments to fly VFR for CAP.  I'm not afraid of glass- I'm a B777 pilot.  I've been using glass or partial glass since the '80's.  I'd rather see the money spent on more planes.  I'd rather see more orientation flights.  I'd rather see cadets getting free flight training.  Half of the cadets in my unit have never been up yet.  Forget the G1000 and buy a $400 handheld GPS if you can't find your way home. 

[FW]

Not to go over this again but....
The fleet is set at 550 aircraft.  Distribution is based on a 200hrs of operations per aircraft in each region.  Each wing has a minimum of 2 aircraft. 


Civil Air Patrol can  "zero time"  about 4 aircraft for the price of 1 G1000 C182.
Since we can't have more aircraft, I rather have the best aircraft possible.

[PhotogPilot]

(never mind the time we left a field site in highly MVFR conditions,  the overcast sitting right on top of the ridgelines,  went IMC 2-3 times trying cross from one valley into the next and finally realizing we had ZERO idea where we were.  We landed in a rice paddy near the intersection of 3 roads and I got to run over to the road sign and copy down the Hangul and westernized spellings of the towns on the sign so we could compare them to our map...)

Reminds me of a buddy that had to circle a water tower to read the name of a small town to find out where he was. As the old saying goes, use everything in the cockpit to your advantage..... In this case everything out of the cockpit as well.

Been there, done that

[DG]

My group has no aircraft.  I have to drive 1 1/2 hours to beg to fly a plane from another group. 

I'd rather see more orientation flights.  Half of the cadets in my unit have never been up yet. 

The Maule N112CP was at Queen City all through October.  Nobody flew it.  So it was moved to Quakertown where it will remain.  For a time in October, it was at Braden.  All three are airports in your Group.

Can we approach this in a positive, constructive manner?  We have a lot of work to do (flying), and need your help.

[Thrashed]

nevermind

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Maybe because it was based at "Queen City" 

[Teal 37]

Many people have mentioned retaining the GX55 GPS. That's really not a good idea since the GX55 is not Approach Certified. In today's (and tomorrow's) airspace environment, ADF approaches are almost completely gone and VOR approaches are being phased out rapidly. A straight-in GPS approach is better & safer anyhow, and can be developed for any airport if there is an FAA need.

The GX60 is a GX55 certified for GPS Approaches and would be an option, but have no idea on its availability. They are both "ancient" as far as GPS's are concerned.

[coolkites]

Has anyone seen a list of what wings will be getting one of the new aircraft that are being produced?

I can tell you that PCR-OR-007 just got a 1yr old C-182 G1000 equipped
our old C-172 was sent down to California.

So tell me how many searches does your squadron do per year or per month in order to justify a new aircraft.

[bosshawk]

As has been tromped into oblivion in another subject, the number of hours that are anticipated to be flown plus the geographical location in relation to other Wing aircraft are usually the main criteria for locating an aircraft.  As someone else has suggested, there also are the Wing politics to be considered and only God knows how they work.