UAVS Flown by NON-PILOTS

[Hawk200]

Got to point out one little problem with the headline: UAV's won't be flown by non-pilots, they'll be flown by non-rated pilots. Technically, anyone is a non pilot until trained. The background they choose from may be non-pilots, but they'll be be pilots once the training is finished.

I want to be a valuable member of the Air Force but I dont belive that I can pass a flight physical, mostly due to eyesight restrictions. If I was given a chance to fly a UAV I would take it gladly. On the other hand I know that flying the UAV is not going to get me anywhere in my career. That is why I'm asking for emergency management and intelligence, hopefully I will get one of those.

Don't know about emergency management, but intel is one of the prime uses for UAV's and hence the pilots flying them.

As far as eyesight goes, a UAV operator probably won't have any (or many) restrictions on eyesight. Which is probably why they're pulling from Nav's, ABM's and related flight fields. A friend of mine took the AF flight aptitude test for grins and giggles, and was told that he qualified. He mentioned his eye problems (he can't get Lasik for some reason), and was given literally the same job list as what desertengineer1 has on page two of this thread. He couldn't be a pilot, but he could be crew. If it is what you really want, it's worth looking into.

[es_g0d]

"Needs of the service" is the buzzword that "leadership" uses to justify its lack of foresight.

My main point remains: UAVs are destroying what it means to be an aviator in the United States Air Force.  Its an absolute shame.

Interestingly, the FAA doesn't consider UAV pilots to be pilots in some sense.  While working at Creech I attempted to help a RATED military pilot with a current Form 8 (a checkride form, roughly equivalent to the CAPF-5) to add a Single Engine Land category to his commercial certificate under FAR 61.73.  The FAA refused, saying that it wasn't an airplane (essentially).  I wouldn't expect that ruling to be final, but that's what I got from the FSDO.

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

[Timbo]

^ Different situation.  IDK.  The FAA says it isn't a plane, guess it's not a plane.  If they come out and say a UAV is in fact a plane, I have an old radio controlled mustang from '67 that I guess they would have to include as well. 

There are many reasons why the FAA is hesitant now.  The decision they make will in fact affect aviation in this country.  There was talk about UAV's being flown in disaster relief and missing person searches.  If they say UAV's are planes, does that mean UAV pilots have to be a card carrying member of the pilots club?  What happens when I fly my UAV into the side of a school bus full of children and am not a pilot.......see the problem I am sure the FAA is facing.

Honestly CAP would make a great resource in finding UAV folks, for Continental US applications.  Searches with UAV platforms will appear, it is just a matter of finding who will be building them, and what rules come with owning one.     

[es_g0d]

Right there, Timbo, you may have hit the nail squarely on the pounding surface.

UAVs should be "flown" by people who WANT to fly them.  Happy people make productive people.

The basic pilot training requirements for UAV pilots is roughly the Private certificate.

CAP has a large population of Private certificate pilots who are well-motivated to helping the Air Force's needs.

That's a pie-in-the-sky type of logic, but the important point here is that CAP is an underutilized resource to our parent organization.  We have expertise and heritage in operating light single engine airplanes, and now Uncle Sam has let a contract for training pilots when they already have that indigenous capacity within CAP.  See where I'm going?

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

[Short Field]

A huge part of the problem with putting new UPT grads into the UAV program is that they end up far behind their peers who went on to manned weapon systems in career development.  I remember the pain of the young pilots who got assigned to UPT as an instructor right after graduation (FAIPs - first assignment Instructor Pilot) and the ones who got a first assignment flying OV-2s and OV-10s.  While I am sure there are some who overcame the assignments, they had a very hard time competing with their peers who went directly to the major weapon systems after UPT for key squadron assignments (Stan Eval, Weapons & Tactics, etc) later in their career.  FAIP was a curse word.   

[es_g0d]

<-- Tweet FAIP.    Goods and bads: lots of flying, good.  Didn't grow up in an MWS: bad.  Had the experience to know where to go when the MWS didn't look so rosy any more: PRICELESS.

FAIPs nowadays typically head to their units with more aviation experience than their peers, thanks largely due to the fact that it is a 3-year controlled tour instead of a neverending competition.  That said, they (we) often will only get one operational assignment prior to being hot for staff or some other such non-flying assignment.

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

[lordmonar]

Also remember when they were "banking" pilots? 

They sent a bunch of officers to UPT then sent them off to do comm, CE, Services, etc jobs until there was a need for more pilots.

There was a bunch of disgruntled officers!

I see a lot of that in the UAV field.

[Timbo]

Also remember when they were "banking" pilots? 

They sent a bunch of officers to UPT then sent them off to do comm, CE, Services, etc jobs until there was a need for more pilots.

They still don't do that....do they??

All the Services "Bank" Officers, just in different ways.

The Army and Marines will give an Officer his or first choice of career field, after they perform three years in a branch detail to a "needed and undermanned" field.  Mine was Armor.  I wanted the Business related field of Adjutant General, but had to first serve time driving tanks through mud at Fort Knox, and then in Korea.  Ya, it sucked, but I understood the needs of the Service came before my personal desires. 

So yes, it does suck to go through flight training and be sent to pilot UAV's.  They will eventually develop the field and hopefully pull non-rated Officers for UAV.  This seems (after reading further) to be a quick way to fill the needs of the branch.  Lets hope that when the promotion TIG comes up, those flying UAV's will be lumped in (how does the AF say?) with non-pilots (line??).

[es_g0d]

Thank heavens, they haven't done the bank since the early to mid 90s.

Now the Air Force simply either turns the pilot faucet on or off (at full blast or near-zero production) based on its forecasted needs.  If unforcasted events take place and too many pilots either stay or jump ship, then they do a RIF (reduction in force) like they did in 1995 or we simply do without and have a vacuum of needed experience.  All cheap shots aside, its pretty difficult to predict the future needs of America's military more than a myopic distance ahead.

The other not-so-awesome tactic the Air Force undertook with "force shaping" was to eliminate 40,000 personnel in the guise of "we'll use the money to recapitalize the fleet."  Translation: Air Force senior leadership would do ANYTHING to buy more F-22s.  The F-22 is an absolutely dominant platform, but it doesn't do anything for us in the war we're currently fighting.  In the end, we kicked out 40,000 people and found out that it didn't save us a significant (if any) amount of money.  The second priority, the KC-X tanker--well, we all see how well that's going since officials have punted to the incoming administration on the issue.

With its focus on the F-22 and other issues, the Air Force simply wasn't doing everything it could (or should) to support the war.  This, combined with the nuclear unsurety incidents, led to major shakeups in our leadership.  You'll note that a fighter general is not running the Air Force right now, and that's a first for many years.

So, we finally started a second pipeline for UAV pilots.  Its what we needed. 

Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

(dang, I'm gonna fall off this soap box!)

[Short Field]

Also remember when they were "banking" pilots? 

Banking beats what they did to the '75 year group.  "Go home and we will get you in UPT in a year" --- a year later "So sorry, if you want to come on active-duty, pick a non-flying career field or just go about your life."

[Timbo]

Banking beats what they did to the '75 year group.  "Go home and we will get you in UPT in a year" --- a year later "So sorry, if you want to come on activity, pick a nonflying career field or just go about your life."

Well that sucks.  Again.....serve your country in the way your country asks you to.  Translation: take the hit, cry a little and drive on.  I wonder how many fighter jock wannabees decided to get out.  Did they let them out??  Should have sent them over to the Marines or Army. 

[PHall]

Banking beats what they did to the '75 year group.  "Go home and we will get you in UPT in a year" --- a year later "So sorry, if you want to come on activity, pick a nonflying career field or just go about your life."

Well that sucks.  Again.....serve your country in the way your country asks you to.  Translation: take the hit, cry a little and drive on.  I wonder how many fighter jock wannabees decided to get out.  Did they let them out??  Should have sent them over to the Marines or Army. 

No, they didn't have to come back. It was a clean break, no obligation or anything.

[Timbo]

^ Wow.  Some people got a free ride to school I would imagine. 

[Short Field]

If you have the grades and apply yourself, getting money for college is easy.  Getting to fly fighters is a whole different challenge.   

I was conditionally released to go back into the USMC (I got out in '71) but they kept jerking me around about a guaranteed flying slot for so long that I finally went on active duty in the USAF.  The other services' flying programs had extremely long waiting lists as USAF 2Lts tried to find a flying slot.  All of us had finished the Flight Instruction Program while in AFROTC.  There was a whole lot of talent and no flying slots hitting the streets at the same time.  Remember, this was the drawdown from Vietnam.  It took most of us 18 months to get on active duty after being commissioned.  We were out so long they started a "re-blueing" course at OTS for us to attend before reporting for training in our career fields. 

Banking pilots was McPeak's plan to try to keep faith with the young officers and avoid repeating the mess of the 70s.   I do salute him for that.

[Mustang]

Also remember when they were "banking" pilots? 

Banking beats what they did to the '75 year group.  "Go home and we will get you in UPT in a year" --- a year later "So sorry, if you want to come on active-duty, pick a non-flying career field or just go about your life."

They did the same thing to the 1990 year group.  A class-action lawsuit was threatened since they all had contracts saying they would be going to pilot training after graduation, and those who stuck around eventually got cycled into UPT.  The contracts don't say that anymore.

[JayT]

Banking beats what they did to the '75 year group.  "Go home and we will get you in UPT in a year" --- a year later "So sorry, if you want to come on activity, pick a nonflying career field or just go about your life."

Well that sucks.  Again.....serve your country in the way your country asks you to.  Translation: take the hit, cry a little and drive on.  I wonder how many fighter jock wannabees decided to get out.  Did they let them out??  Should have sent them over to the Marines or Army. 

I'm sorry, but this isn't World War II.

That attitude went the way of the B17.

[Short Field]

Again.....serve your country in the way your country asks you to.  Translation: take the hit, cry a little and drive on.  I wonder how many fighter jock wannabees decided to get out.  Did they let them out??  Should have sent them over to the Marines or Army. 

How many decades of military service do you have???  I am two years short of three.  It wasn't a matter of the "wannabees" getting out - they were out and had to ask to come on active duty.  They also didn't get an option of going to the Marines or Army - the other services were booked up as well.

[Nomex Maximus]

Here's a job posting from a well known defense contractor in Palmdale CA:

"Pilot, Unmanned Air Vehicle 4Perform Air Vehicle Operator functions during developmental test and operational flight of Unmanned Aircraft. Plan and execute tests in accordance with FAA and ICAO procedures, and prepare flight test documentation. Coordinate and assist in the execution of ground and flight test events. Prepare and deliver briefings to company, customer and user staff personnel. Support operational test and evaluation planning that integrates specifications, operational user, and test and evaluation requirements. Key engineering skills necessary to perform flight-test activities (strategy and approach, design, planning, scheduling, test coordination, conduct, and report generation).Basic Qualifications: BS in engineering with 9-13 years experience in aerospace. Must be a commercial pilot with current instrument rating, minimum of 500 hours as pilot in command, and have current FAA Class III medical certificate or better. Active DoD Top Secret Clearance is required and ability to obtain Special Access Clearances.Preferred Qualifications: Military rated flight experience. Unmanned air vehicle pilot qualifications. Instructor pilot qualifications. Flight Test experience is also a plus. Relocation Assistance Available. Security Clearance Required."

[cnitas]

Wow, there might be 3 whole people with those quals...   

[Hawk200]

Wow, there might be 3 whole people with those quals...   

Sounds like someone wrote it for a buddy or three. I remember seeing a job announcement before that required a Doctorate in the field. It was a GS-7 job.