CAP aircraft markings

[RiverAux]

I've got a fairly simple question and then an open question about aircraft markings.

Simple question:  CAPR66-1 attachment one shows a pretty old marking scheme (still has the CAP seal on the tail).  I can't seem to find anything requiring the change to the tail letter from AF Aux to Civil Air Patrol and changing the emblem on the door from the CAP Auxiliary emblem to the command patch.  Also, are we supposed to be transitioning back to the "old" Civil Air Patrol command patch or are we going to stick with the one that has "U.S" on it?  Can anyone point me in the right direction?  Thanks.

Now, for the discussion item:  Which do you prefer to have on the door, the old CAP Auxiliary emblem (this is how it is labeled on the CAP seals and emblems page in e-services) or the command patch? 

CAP Auxiliary Emblem:


Personally, I'm in favor of this one as I think it just looks more appropriate in this location than the command patch shape.   

[mikeylikey]

^ Unfortunately, it has "USAF AUX" in the patch.  I will let the Posse Comitatus folks beat that dead horse until this thread eventually gets locked like all the others. 

Personally, I like the one you posted above.  It is historical.

As for the changes, I believe it is hidden in one of the multiple ICL's that should have been written into regs within 90 days of publishing.   

[Eclipse]

The change to vehicle markings was done via a Logistics / Transport ICL.  CAPR 77-1 is the reg which prescribes markings, and it has not been updated yet. I believe it was included in the large ICL which directed rooftop numbers and direction indicators.

Due to the costs of installation, as well as the markings not holding up in harsh climates, and some political inertia, the remarking was held off by many states to see where this all landed, especially on ground vehicles.

In the interim of the above, the MAJCOM started being in play again and NHQ LG directed everyone to hold off doing anything further.

The currently approved door insignia for vehicles is the "new" MAJCOM that says "Civil Air Patrol" sans US - the version with US in it is approved for various uses until 2010, per the 1 April 08 "Changes to CAPM 39-1" ICL roll-up memo, vehicle emblems will be replaced through attrition..

Personally, I prefer the MAJCOM, though I never had any issue with the round organizational emblem.

[RiverAux]

Not seeing an ICL for this....

[Eclipse]

Not seeing an ICL for this....

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_01_25_Uniforms.pdf

CC MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS
SUBJECT: Changes to CAPM 39-1  1 April 2008
g. CAP Command Patch. The CAP Command Patch was redesigned to remove the "U.S." from the design. The new patch may be worn immediately and the phase out date for the "U.S." version is 1 March 2010. The emblem on vehicles and aircraft that display the "U.S" version will be replaced through attrition.

[RiverAux]

Okay, that gets me part-way there --silly me -- not thinking to look in a ICL to the uniform regulation for information on aircraft markings......  Thanks. 

I'm still looking for the ICL/reg authorizing the command patch on the aircraft door. 

[lordmonar]

Okay, that gets me part-way there --silly me -- not thinking to look in a ICL to the uniform regulation for information on aircraft markings......  Thanks. 

I'm still looking for the ICL/reg authorizing the command patch on the aircraft door. 

Are you talking about the old change that look the corpoate seal and put the command patch on the door?  It came out the same time we took USAF-AUX off the tail.  I think it came out as a policy letter by He who will not be nameds.

[RiverAux]

Probably.  But shouldn't a policy letter effecting a regulation have been posted as an ICL? 

[PHall]

Probably.  But shouldn't a policy letter effecting a regulation have been posted as an ICL? 

You're trying to use logic here. Stop doing that before you hurt yourself.

[stratoflyer]

^ lol

[stratoflyer]

OK. Here I go now...

USAF AUX all the way!! Definitely the old CAP emblem should go on everything vehicular.

BUT--

--before if go on let me just say I joined this forum to learn many things and I did learn one thing just now. I am not beating a dead horse here...

Unfortunately, it has "USAF AUX" in the patch.  I will let the Posse Comitatus folks beat that dead horse until this thread eventually gets locked like all the others.

So is this why they've taken all the"USAF AUX" markings off of things? Makes some sense, especially how CAP is definitely helping out with Homeland Security. Then again our status is more like that of the coast guard in which case we could be exempt like the CG is under Posse Comitatus.

I always like being given a reason that explain actions (anyone like science?). Until now, no one ever mentioned to me a plausible reason for redesigning the majcom patch.

[SJFedor]

OK. Here I go now...

USAF AUX all the way!! Definitely the old CAP emblem should go on everything vehicular.

BUT--

--before if go on let me just say I joined this forum to learn many things and I did learn one thing just now. I am not beating a dead horse here...

Unfortunately, it has "USAF AUX" in the patch.  I will let the Posse Comitatus folks beat that dead horse until this thread eventually gets locked like all the others.

So is this why they've taken all the"USAF AUX" markings off of things? Makes some sense, especially how CAP is definitely helping out with Homeland Security. Then again our status is more like that of the coast guard in which case we could be exempt like the CG is under Posse Comitatus.

I always like being given a reason that explain actions (anyone like science?). Until now, no one ever mentioned to me a plausible reason for redesigning the majcom patch.

That was one of the reasons given. But in previous threads, it's been theorized that our previous NATCOM was trying to get us more and more into the corporation of CAP (or USCAP?) and less and less USAF AUX.

[Tubacap]

I'm about to embark on writing a research paper on the use of the military, specifically the Reserve, National Guard, and Auxiliaries for domestic disaster response and homeland security.  If anyone is interested, I'll post it up.

I plan on also making this my major project to complete my masters degree, which will be much more in depth with the help of some people from this board!

[SJFedor]

I'd love to read it. 

[stratoflyer]

Yeah I would like to read it also. Sounds good.

Now by that NATCOM that wanted less USAF AUX, was that the guy before our current commander?

Back to aircraft markings--who designed the roundels on the wing of our aircraft? I really like that. Anyone have a pic--I believe its on the left wing underside.

[isuhawkeye]

Image lifted from CAPBlog

[stratoflyer]

Hey thanks! See? That's a cool symbol!

[PHall]

Should be the regular "star and bar" national insignia.

But that's just my opinion.

[SJFedor]

Now by that NATCOM that wanted less USAF AUX, was that the guy before our current commander?

That is correct, the prior CC, or as we call him, he who shall not be named. (HWSNBN)

[N Harmon]

Should be the regular "star and bar" national insignia.

But that's just my opinion.

Agreed. The Coast Guard puts the standard U.S. roundel on their aircraft...



I think CAP should do the same.

If I were king of CAP I would just say enough and follow the standard T-41 paint scheme, substituting Civil Air Patrol for US Air Force and the wing (ie. MIWG) with the CAPflight number on the vertical stabilizer.



I might use some different colors but keep the scheme the same.

[davidsinn]

Agreed. The Coast Guard puts the standard U.S. roundel on their aircraft...

That's because they are military and a federal agency.

[isuhawkeye]

no star and bar here






sorry. 

I might have gone a little overboard.

[PHall]

And no part of the Department of Homeland Security is an Auxiliary of the Air Force either.

But the Coast Guard uses the star and bar, and they're part of the Department of Homeland Security.

IIRC, U.S. Customs and The Border Patrol have never used the star and bar insignia.
Probably because they're considered "Police" agencies.

[isuhawkeye]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

[MIKE]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

Because the Coast Guard doesn't pay for the planes.

[davidsinn]

But the Coast Guard uses the star and bar, and they're part of the Department of Homeland Security.

And Navy department in time of War. They're also armed which might have something to do with it.

[PHall]

But the Coast Guard uses the star and bar, and they're part of the Department of Homeland Security.

And Navy department in time of War. They're also armed which might have something to do with it.

And all of those Customs and Border Protection carry armed personnel every day. But they're considered to be "Police" and police aircraft don't normally have the national insignia on them for Posse Cometadus (yes I know it's spelled wrong) reasons.

[stratoflyer]

That T-41 is ugly. I like our current pain scheme. And our roundel is fine. It is a civilian symbol with a military flavor--IMO what a civilian auxiliary should do.

By the way, Cessnas are ugly birds. And I hit my head with the wind today during preflight on a 172. Low wing for me!

[stratoflyer]

^correction WING. typo there.

[KyCAP]

You know that you recognize Cessna drivers by the diamond imprinted in their forehead... Look at the trailing edge of Flap and aileron for explanation..

[mikeylikey]

^ 

[_]

I like the current paint scheme but if you're looking at T-41's take a look at these.

[stratoflyer]

I just flew our squadrons airplane the other day and I have to say it is a pretty neat feeling flying something unique--even if it is a Cessna. To be fair, our 172R flies like a dream.

[Eclipse]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

[RiverAux]

True, but some CG Aux pilots put Aux markings on their airplanes. 

[a2capt]

By the way, Cessnas are ugly birds. And I hit my head with the wind today during preflight on a 172. Low wing for me!

Go ahead and whack a knee then.. we'll hear next, "No wing for me! I've got a Rotorway!"

[Major Carrales]

Should be the regular "star and bar" national insignia.

But that's just my opinion.

You mean a "roundel."  I think the CAP one is as good as it will get. I might assume that the usual roundel of the US MILITARY might insinuate that it was owned by the US GOVERNMENT/ARMED FORCES.  The CAP roundel shows exactally what were are, an Auxiliary of the Air Force that operates the world's largest fleet of Cessna Aircraft.

It should also be pointed out that the USAAF roundel was not in use by the Coastal Patrols of WWII.  They used a distinctive Civil Defense seal with the tri-prop until that was removed in favor of a white triangle in a blue circle.

[MIKE]

My vote would be something similar to the dark blue and white paint scheme that they had on the T-37... Maybe with some international orange.

... With U.S. AIR FORCE markings of course... none of this CAP nonsense. 

[Major Carrales]

... With U.S. AIR FORCE markings of course... none of this CAP nonsense. 

Will the USAF own the aircraft?  or will the Civil Air Patrol?  The difference is a big one.

[MIKE]

... With U.S. AIR FORCE markings of course... none of this CAP nonsense. 

Will the USAF own the aircraft?  or will the Civil Air Patrol?  The difference is a big one.

Civil Air Patrol won't exist.

[Major Carrales]

... With U.S. AIR FORCE markings of course... none of this CAP nonsense. 

Will the USAF own the aircraft?  or will the Civil Air Patrol?  The difference is a big one.

Civil Air Patrol won't exist.

MIKE, have you gone meshuggeneh?  Still, I wonder what would happen if the USAF ever absorbed CAP and had direct control.

[Tubacap]

This may seem like a strange question, but who does "own" our aircraft?  Is it the corporation or is it the USAF?  How about ground vehicles?  Are these vehicles considered "government" as they are paid for primarily through appropriated funds?

Does this affect the markings?

BTY I like the CAP insignia, it is a great balance for the civilian aux to the USAF

[FW]

^Actually, Will, it's a good question.    CAP aircraft air "owned" by CAP however, the title is held by the USAF.  Sort of like the bank holding title to your car if it's financed. It's why the AF must insure we take proper care of the aircraft and we must get approval to modify them over contracted specs. 

CAP decides the paint scheme and decals BUT, the "USAF AUX" bears certain restrictions which would impede us from certain missions; at this time.  I hope this answers the question.

[RiverAux]

CAP aircraft air "owned" by CAP however, the title is held by the USAF. 

You've asserted that in several places lately.  Can you point to something that backs this up?

[SarDragon]

According to the FAA registration database, the owner is CAP, the corporation.

N4646H, a CAWG asset:

Registered Owner

Name           CIVIL AIR PATROL INC
Street       105 SOUTH HANSELL ST
City       MAXWELL AFB    State    ALABAMA         Zip Code        36112-6332
County       MONTGOMERY
Country       UNITED STATES

IIRC, the recent sale of various aircraft was done by the wings, not USAF, and the proceeds went to the corporation.

[FW]

CAP aircraft air "owned" by CAP however, the title is held by the USAF. 

You've asserted that in several places lately.  Can you point to something that backs this up?

I can only point to some"one".  The titles to the aircraft are held by the CAP-USAF/CC.  It's a technical point, since they're only a few feet from the CAP side of the building however, they are in the control of the AF.  Also, every time I ask about it, that's the answer I get.

[SAR-EMT1]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

Um... yeah they do.
Examples: P-3 Orion, C-130

[Tubacap]

I am pretty sure you're thinking USCG not USCG/AUX.

[Eclipse]

CAP decides the paint scheme and decals BUT, the "USAF AUX" bears certain restrictions which would impede us from certain missions; at this time.  I hope this answers the question.

I'm sorry, I have to take issue to that.  This is another misguided leftover from the HWSRN.

The markings on the plane do not change our status with regards to Posse Comitatus in either direction, same for the vehicles.

[SAR-EMT1]

I am pretty sure you're thinking USCG not USCG/AUX.

DOH! ...yeah

[Eclipse]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

Um... yeah they do.
Examples: P-3 Orion, C-130

All aircraft flown by CG Aux'ers are member-owned. 

[stratoflyer]

CAP decides the paint scheme and decals BUT, the "USAF AUX" bears certain restrictions which would impede us from certain missions; at this time.  I hope this answers the question.

I'm sorry, I have to take issue to that.  This is another misguided leftover from the HWSRN.

The markings on the plane do not change our status with regards to Posse Comitatus in either direction, same for the vehicles.

^Could you explain that?

And what does "HWSRN" mean?

[Eclipse]

He Who Shall Remain Nameless, our former national commander.

The issues regarding whether CAP is bound by Posse Comm as an auxiliary of a military service, and in turn our ability to support LEA's in enforcement activities are complicated and contentious.  One argument says that unless we are on an AFAM we are a private corporation, not bound by PC, however the counter to that is where most of the money and resources come from.

There are buckets of 1's and 0's on this topic here and other forums.

However whether or not it says "USAF Aux" on the tail of an airplane isn't going to change our legal status in that regard, nor get us more missions.

We are what we are, for all its worth, and until it changes at the charter level, or the Supremes rule on POTUS' assertion that Posse Comm can be "relaxed" in times of national emergencies, we'll not likely see much in terms of LEA enforcement missions.

[stratoflyer]

As I recall it, the Posse law prohibits military from performing law enforcement. What happened in New Orleans sometime after Katrina and the Guard stepped in?

[Eclipse]

As I recall it, the Posse law prohibits military from performing law enforcement. What happened in New Orleans sometime after Katrina and the Guard stepped in?

The National Guard is the answer to Posse Comm.  Guard units are "recognized" by the federal government, but are state-controlled assets, therefore generally exempt from Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1385 when acting domestically.

Posse Comm is specifically applicable to the military services when federalized, however the US Coast Guard, for example, is specifically exempted.

I am vastly simplifying the situation.

[stratoflyer]

Oh, and who decides what CAP's status is? The Congressional charter? Who hires us? How does this work? And what does this have to do with aircraft markings? I'm very curious at all of this.

[SarDragon]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

Um... yeah they do.
Examples: P-3 Orion, C-130

When did the CG get P-3s? Pic? Linky?

[FW]

CAP decides the paint scheme and decals BUT, the "USAF AUX" bears certain restrictions which would impede us from certain missions; at this time.  I hope this answers the question.

The markings on the plane do not change our status with regards to Posse Comitatus in either direction, same for the vehicles.

You're absolutely right.  However, (sorry folks, I'm only the messenger) it's the AF's opinion we can't use the "Aux" markings if we perform missions which pass their comfort level.  

[jimmydeanno]

As I recall it, the Posse law prohibits military from performing law enforcement.

The key to understanding the differences between military responses to domestic crises and the anti-drug effort is simple. The military can successfully operate in crisis environments under the current PCA restrictions. Military personnel involved in these operations do not possess the need to search, seize, or arrest civilians to accomplish their mission. Should trouble arise, military forces can detain civilians and promptly turn them over to the appropriate civilian authority. This is not the case in the anti-drug effort. The military must become equal partners with its civilian law enforcement counterparts. Therefore, the military needs the statutory authority to search, seize, and arrest civilians while conducting counterdrug missions. The current PCA restrictions severely hamper the military's ability to successfully prosecute the war on illegal drugs by using two sets of rules, one for domestic operations and another for international missions. Additionally, without the ability to search, seize, and arrest, the military cannot operate independently of civilian law enforcement personnel.

The gradual buildup to fight the emerging drug problem in the early 1980's gave rise to the first piece of major legislation aimed at reducing PCA limitations and thereby expanding military involvement in domestic affairs. In 1982, the Defense Authorization Act ushered in several new changes to the Act. It codified these changes in Title 10, United States Code, Sections 371-382.14 These sweeping changes can be summarized as follows. The Department of Defense could share equipment and facilities, train civilian law enforcement personnel on specialty equipment, maintain and operate surveillance, reconnaissance, and communications equipment along air, sea, and surface areas.15 This provision also provided for the continued monitoring to 25 miles inside United States borders if the monitoring began outside. The military could share information with civilian law enforcement officials, but the prohibition still remained for active searches, seizures, and arrests by military personnel within the United States.16 However, the military retained the right to detain civilians in order to turn them over to the appropriate civilian law enforcement agency.

BTW, the exerp above is part of a larger (very interesting) paper - I enjoyed reading it, and I assume you would too.

[Major Carrales]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

Um... yeah they do.
Examples: P-3 Orion, C-130

When did the CG get P-3s? Pic? Linky?

The Coast Guard has these aircraft, the Auxiliary does not.  The Auxiliary flies member own aircraft.

The only USCGAux aircraft I have seen with large marking is this one owned by a prominent member of Flotilla 71 out of Corpus Christi...

[PHall]

Should be the regular "star and bar" national insignia.

But that's just my opinion.

You mean a "roundel."  I think the CAP one is as good as it will get. I might assume that the usual roundel of the US MILITARY might insinuate that it was owned by the US GOVERNMENT/ARMED FORCES.  The CAP roundel shows exactally what were are, an Auxiliary of the Air Force that operates the world's largest fleet of Cessna Aircraft.

It should also be pointed out that the USAAF roundel was not in use by the Coastal Patrols of WWII.  They used a distinctive Civil Defense seal with the tri-prop until that was removed in favor of a white triangle in a blue circle.

It ceased being a roundel in 1942 when the bars were added. Roundels are, you know, round!

[SarDragon]

and the coast guard aux doesn't use the star and bar

They don't have airplanes.

Um... yeah they do.
Examples: P-3 Orion, C-130

When did the CG get P-3s? Pic? Linky?

The Coast Guard has these aircraft, the Auxiliary does not.  The Auxiliary flies member own aircraft.

[remainder redacted]

See bold text above and below.

I repeat, spelled out: When did the Coast Guard get P-3s? Pic? Linky?

I'm looking for information to supplement my knowledge of an airframe I had significant contact with in 21 years of AD, not a lesson on how to read. The OP on the original comment was corrected, and acknowledged his mistake. I addressed the comment as corrected.

[Al Sayre]

Dave, I think they had a couple of A models as VIP transport back in the mid-late '80's. I remember seeing one in USCG colors at NAS NORVA around 88-89.  They also had some E2's they were flying out of NAS NORVA and St. Augustine FL around that time.

[PHall]

Dave, I think they had a couple of A models as VIP transport back in the mid-late '80's. I remember seeing one in USCG colors at NAS NORVA around 88-89.  They also had some E2's they were flying out of NAS NORVA and St. Augustine FL around that time.

I remember those aircraft, they weren't P-3's, they were Gulfstream I's.

And those weren't E-2's, they were a pair of HC-130H's with the radar system from the E-2 grafted on.
Those C-130's now fly for Customs.

[Al Sayre]

Ummm nope.  I know the difference between a P3A and G1, I fixed P3's in Sigonella for 2 years.  I also know that the E-2's were E-2's.  I was the LPO for Workcenter 650 (CATIII-D/VAST) at AIMD Norfolk in 88 & 89 and had USCG personnel assigned to my workcenter specifically to fix the radar units they had on the E2's in the hangar across the street.

edit:  Link to article on USCG E2's (mods feel free to shrink the link): http://books.google.com/books?id=lUN__e4yC_IC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=P3A+Orion+USCG&source=web&ots=rrWEuTXN1n&sig=SQ0AUPEaoW4OeSy072BgB8yy-Zs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

[Major Carrales]

Should be the regular "star and bar" national insignia.

But that's just my opinion.

You mean a "roundel."  I think the CAP one is as good as it will get. I might assume that the usual roundel of the US MILITARY might insinuate that it was owned by the US GOVERNMENT/ARMED FORCES.  The CAP roundel shows exactally what were are, an Auxiliary of the Air Force that operates the world's largest fleet of Cessna Aircraft.

It should also be pointed out that the USAAF roundel was not in use by the Coastal Patrols of WWII.  They used a distinctive Civil Defense seal with the tri-prop until that was removed in favor of a white triangle in a blue circle.

It ceased being a roundel in 1942 when the bars were added. Roundels are, you know, round!

I am partly assuming that was a joke of sorts, however, if not...

The term "Roundel" has come to mean a military marking identifying the national military on an aircraft...


From Wikipedia...

"A roundel in heraldry is any circular shape; in military use it is an emblem of nationality employed on military aircraft and air force flags, generally round and consisting of concentric rings of different colors."

You can read up on the history of the US roundel here...
http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/pays/etats_unis.html

Which also includes the Civil Air Patrol roundel...

From the site Roundels of the World, please visit it and see for yourself...



Examen some others here...
http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/accueil.html

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/rondels.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~r2russ/midway/roundels.html

While I greatly respect your years of service, I have to point out that your are wrong this occasion.

[BillB]

Carrales is now the Roundel police

[Major Carrales]

Carrales is now the Roundel police

(a la Dragnet...)
This is the Forum...CAPTALK, USA.  It was Tuesday and balmy in South Texas.  My partner's BillB working out of ROUNDEL Division.  We got a call that someone was disrepecting the US Roundel.  I'm a Roundel Police officer...just the facts, please!!!

[PHall]

Carrales is now the Roundel police

(a la Dragnet...)
This is the Forum...CAPTALK, USA.  It was Tuesday and balmy in South Texas.  My partner's BillB working out of ROUNDEL Division.  We got a call that someone was disrepecting the US Roundel.  I'm a Roundel Police officer...just the facts, please!!!

Carrales, next time you're in Los Angeles you might as well turn yourself in, it's against the law to make fun of Jack Webb in the City of Los Angeles.

[stratoflyer]

Oh no. Someone just referenced wikipedia!!

[Major Carrales]

Carrales is now the Roundel police

(a la Dragnet...)
This is the Forum...CAPTALK, USA.  It was Tuesday and balmy in South Texas.  My partner's BillB working out of ROUNDEL Division.  We got a call that someone was disrepecting the US Roundel.  I'm a Roundel Police officer...just the facts, please!!!

Carrales, next time you're in Los Angeles you might as well turn yourself in, it's against the law to make fun of Jack Webb in the City of Los Angeles.

Who's making fun?  I considered it an homage.  Jack Webb is of cult status in our home.  Joe Friday, the original...no Disrespect to Ed O'Niel, he had big shoes to fill...is a cultural icon.  Have a great day!!!

[Major Carrales]

Oh no. Someone just referenced wikipedia!!

You will not that I provided supporting evidence.  Wikipedia is a "start" not an "end," for references.