PAWG air assets grounded.

[Garibaldi]

Query: Is this going to affect HMRS? Or is it just for wing assets?

[RMW14]

Hawk is still a Go (I just came from there and students are beginning to arrive). This is an all stop on air assets from what I gathered in the email that was sent out. I am curious to see what caused the call for the entire wing to be grounded.

[dwb]

And the wing commander still has a job? The fiddling continues.

Wing CC shouldn't be fired for telling the GOB Club to knock it off. It's certainly not the first time this has happened, and probably won't be the last.

If people are wrinkling airplanes on her watch, she is ultimately responsible. Wouldn't be the first, or last time, a commander was sacked due to loss of confidence in the ability to lead.

Yes, and grounding the fleet to reset people's attitudes and to make it clear regulations and procedures must be followed is her taking responsibility for the problem *before* she gets sacked.

Col Brandon is a pretty outstanding individual. It sounds like she's trying to change long-standing, systemic safety problems. Which is exactly what you'd expect a good Wing CC to do.

[THRAWN]

And the wing commander still has a job? The fiddling continues.

Wing CC shouldn't be fired for telling the GOB Club to knock it off. It's certainly not the first time this has happened, and probably won't be the last.

If people are wrinkling airplanes on her watch, she is ultimately responsible. Wouldn't be the first, or last time, a commander was sacked due to loss of confidence in the ability to lead.

Yes, and grounding the fleet to reset people's attitudes and to make it clear regulations and procedures must be followed is her taking responsibility for the problem *before* she gets sacked.

Col Brandon is a pretty outstanding individual. It sounds like she's trying to change long-standing, systemic safety problems. Which is exactly what you'd expect a good Wing CC to do.

Eh. If it was early in her tour I could buy that, but it is not. Sounds like a good CYA move...

[lordmonar]

[darn]ed if you do.....[darn]ed if you don't.

We cry "why don't commanders do something" and when they do we cry "Well they should have done something before!"

[SunDog]

[darn]ed if you do.....[darn]ed if you don't.

WeSome cry "why don't commanders do something" and when they do weothers cry "Well they should have done something before!"

Not the same people, surely? I don't know how many airplanes PA has, but it is a big state. Is every flying sqdn in PA gacked? I don't know, but it seems unlikely. Could be, though, I guess.

It's good when a commander does something that's needed. Unless it's something dumb, or counter productive.  I remember we had a safety stand down one Saturday. No CAP flying.  I guess we were
supposed to think safety thoughts, or something. . .two of us used the time to practice approaches, non-CAP.  Later that month Wing was whining about flying hours.  . .

[FW]

Three major incidents in about 3 weeks would give pause to any reasonable person.  One aircraft damaged; almost totaled. Another aircraft with about $16k of air frame repairs, and a fuel starvation incident leading to a called emergency.  All these incidents were caused by(I understand) high time mission qualified pilots/instructors, and check pilots.  Two of the incidents occurred during night operations. All incidents occurred after long missions.  I guess the notion of ORM still needs to be stressed to each member.  It isn't just a checklist.  I'm thankful no one was hurt.

[THRAWN]

Three major incidents in about 3 weeks would give pause to any reasonable person.  One aircraft damaged; almost totaled. Another aircraft with about $16k of air frame repairs, and a fuel starvation incident leading to a called emergency.  All these incidents were caused by(I understand) high time mission qualified pilots/instructors, and check pilots.  Two of the incidents occurred during night operations. All incidents occurred after long missions.  I guess the notion of ORM still needs to be stressed to each member.  It isn't just a checklist.  I'm thankful no one was hurt.

Wow. Puts the whole thing into a different perspective. I'll second the thanks that no one was injured. ORM and the safety program as a whole have turned into a joke. This was unfortunately going to happen somewhere, sooner or later.

[Eclipse]

Without seeing the 78s, it's hard to say where the issues are, though fuel starvation, absent a mechanical issue, is, well...

This is the problem with "Safety 1st" rhetoric in a culture of "you're lucky I showed up at all".

Poop happens, things break, and even well-prepared people get caught off guard, but if in any case here
clear regulations weren't' followed, or people made "I know better." decisions instead of following procedure,
then membership level disciplinary action should be considered for those at fault, including a bill for damages
to take with them on the way out.

[PHall]

It's called complacency folks and it's a killer. High time instructors and examiners seem to fall for it the most.

[Eclipse]

It's called complacency folks and it's a killer. High time instructors and examiners seem to fall for it the most.

Agreed. Something that gets my goat is when you do a flight release and actually want to check the sortie
information, run the lists, and confirm everything is "as expected".

You can hear the exhale as if they have "better things to do".

"Hey man, I'm CAP's last safety check before you take off.  Relax."

"BTW - the dude you were planning on flying with hasn't been a member for 2 months..."

[SunDog]

I'm guessing the other posters meant fuel exhaustion, vs fuel starvation. . .first one is usually on the pilot, the second one is usually on the machine.  Having experienced the second, it is very annoying.

Still not sure how shutting down ops Wing wide does anything positive. I guess it does keeps accident from happening, since the airplanes are parked. Again, is the whole Wing that gacked, and is this stuff regular and frequent, Wing wide?  Gotta believe a sqdn (and/or pilots) with their act together are saying "There's CAP for you. . ."

Not knowing how the bent airplanes got dinged, I'm not qualified to have an opinion on those.  If someone ran the tanks low and declared, that's a little more cut-and-dried. But still some room for doubt, if it was an honest arithmetic error. . "Wait, it's been five hours, not four! I subtracted (added) wrong!" ORM is pretty much useless for that kind of thing.

A totaled airplane is a big deal, if it was rolled up in a ball - though with no fatalities/injuries, maybe it was an older airframe? Totalling an old Cessna isn't terribly hard, since they might not be worth much, anyway.  or maybe it was a newer plane, and the pilot was just lucky IRT injuries? It does take very little to add up to $16K for the other one - a prop strike or hard landing can easily double that. . .

Anyway, it doesn't take much to run up what sounds like big bucks from events that wouldn't be that dramatic to witness. Cool no one was hurt, though.
 

[A.Member]

Maybe we should make them right sentences on the chalkboard 100 times...or perhaps recite it in front of the squadron:

I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
...

If the safety pledge helps, certainly this will too...

[Eclipse]

A 500-word AAR about the hows and whys of the incident wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps to include a "road show"
for units to replace their nightly safety briefing.

[FW]

It may also be a good idea to create an environment of "ownership" within CAP.  That usually helps reduce "incidents"... just sayn' :angel:

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

A 500-word AAR about the hows and whys of the incident wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps to include a "road show"
for units to replace their nightly safety briefing.

One thing that has always impressed me about the RCAF (during my service) is the commitment to not only a safety culture but to a proactive and learning safety culture. 

Each accident that a had lesson or multiple lessons that could be imparted was written up and promulgated to the entire force in their safety magazine.

In CAP, it seems that these accidents and any lessons learned are buried at NHQ.  Perhaps this is because of the litigious nature of American Corporations or perhaps it takes too much effort or perhaps no one in Safety has thought about it.

The other thing that the RCAF did well was run a regular one week Safety Officer course specifically for Aircrew that qualified Aircrew as a Flight Safety Officer.  They got to wear a cool patch and in return were charged to be the focal point fo aviation related safety for each flying unit.

Food for thought in light of these PA accidents. 

Question for NHQ Safety: what could I learn from these accidents that might help prevent me from making the same mistake?

[SunDog]

Maybe we should make them right sentences on the chalkboard 100 times...or perhaps recite it in front of the squadron:

I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
I will be safe.  I will follow regs.  I will not wreck stuff.
...

If the safety pledge helps, certainly this will too...

"I will be safe"  Really? Not likely or possible. . .and with respect, just ill considered. How about "I won't be reckless-stupid". If you are in a GA airplane, you aren't "safe". It's roughly equivalent to off road motorsports.  CAP mom asks if the O Ride is "perfectly safe", tell her the truth - the drive to the airport was safer.

"I will follow regs". No one does, cause you can't memorize them all. You start breaking them when you
wake up. How about "I'll do my best to follow the spirit and intent of the regs".  Cause if you do bend something,  a broken reg will come to light. It may not be relevant, but count on someone pretending it is.  Regardless, the only person dumber than someone who always breaks the rules is one who never breaks the rules. Heck, even the FAA recognizes this, and has it in the FARS.

"I will not wreck stuff". A promise a carbon based life form can't keep.  We live with limitations of perception. Sometimes we are fooled. . .If you're DOING anything, you might break something - a reasonably prudent and cautious person might break an airplane. And 20/20 hindsight second guessers will see how clearly it could have been avoided. From their arm chair or desk. 

[abdsp51]

"I will be safe"  Really? Not likely or possible. . .and with respect, just ill considered. How about "I won't be reckless-stupid". If you are in a GA airplane, you aren't "safe". It's roughly equivalent to off road motorsports.  CAP mom asks if the O Ride is "perfectly safe", tell her the truth - the drive to the airport was safer.

"I will follow regs". No one does, cause you can't memorize them all. You start breaking them when you
wake up. How about "I'll do my best to follow the spirit and intent of the regs".  Cause if you do bend something,  a broken reg will come to light. It may not be relevant, but count on someone pretending it is.  Regardless, the only person dumber than someone who always breaks the rules is one who never breaks the rules. Heck, even the FAA recognizes this, and has it in the FARS.

"I will not wreck stuff". A promise a carbon based life form can't keep.  We live with limitations of perception. Sometimes we are fooled. . .If you're DOING anything, you might break something - a reasonably prudent and cautious person might break an airplane. And 20/20 hindsight second guessers will see how clearly it could have been avoided. From their arm chair or desk.

With all this I am glad none of my buddies who do fly for ES purposes will never fly with you,  neither would I and I sure wouldn't trust my cadets to your care.  Hate to break it to you but I call BS on this completely.  You can be safe when flying, you can and guess what most of the membership do follow the regs and its good common sense to not wreck things. 

Thank you for leaving the org with these mindsets, we don't need it and are better off without you.  Ciao.

[AirAux]

Back when I flew with the Army we had a monthly or bimonthly safety magazine that coevered all aircraft accidents and incidents and they were well read and discussed.  I don't see why CAP couldn't do this with the internet.  Probably so they don't have to mention when the Wing CC or one of the favored GOB's prangs an AC..

[JeffDG]

A 500-word AAR about the hows and whys of the incident wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps to include a "road show"
for units to replace their nightly safety briefing.

One thing that has always impressed me about the RCAF (during my service) is the commitment to not only a safety culture but to a proactive and learning safety culture. 

Each accident that a had lesson or multiple lessons that could be imparted was written up and promulgated to the entire force in their safety magazine.

In CAP, it seems that these accidents and any lessons learned are buried at NHQ.  Perhaps this is because of the litigious nature of American Corporations or perhaps it takes too much effort or perhaps no one in Safety has thought about it.

The other thing that the RCAF did well was run a regular one week Safety Officer course specifically for Aircrew that qualified Aircrew as a Flight Safety Officer.  They got to wear a cool patch and in return were charged to be the focal point fo aviation related safety for each flying unit.

Food for thought in light of these PA accidents. 

Question for NHQ Safety: what could I learn from these accidents that might help prevent me from making the same mistake?

That makes a lot of sense.

I'd actually like to see a redacted (names removed) report from every incident nationwide distributed to Commanders and Safety Officers.  Would provide a lot of food for thought for safety education sessions, just walking through the accident chains and seeing where the links could have been broken, or alternatively, what benefit justified the risk taken.