B17 crashes in Oswego, IL

[Eclipse]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/B-17-Bomber-Crashes-in-Suburbs-123748444.html

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110613/news/706139928/



http://abclocal.go.com/wls/gallery?section=news/local&id=8187230

One person injured, and of course except for an irreplaceable aircraft destroyed.

[Robborsari]

It appears to be the Liberty Belle.  That yellow stripe is pretty distinctive.  The liberty foundation webpage is off-line.

[Flyinsarge]

OHMYGOSH NO!! There are so few B17s left, and that one just got destroyed is, in my eyes, tragic. A family friend of mine flew those in WWII and also a B17 (Alumumn Overcast) just came to my town and my CAP Squadron and another helped out with crowd control....well, looks like this B17 just met the same fate that thousands of other ones did in WWII-but, still, this is so sad.

[Eclipse]

That's the one.  Their site is up, just getting slammed.

http://www.libertyfoundation.org/index.html

[Eclipse]

[Bluelakes 13]

 

[lordmonar]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/B-17-Bomber-Crashes-in-Suburbs-123748444.html

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110613/news/706139928/



http://abclocal.go.com/wls/gallery?section=news/local&id=8187230

One person injured, and of course except for an irreplaceable aircraft destroyed.

This almost looks like a model diarama. 

[davidsinn]

It looks like she went in dead stick because the  props aren't bent. They might be able to salvage the power plants...

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/B-17-Bomber-Crashes-in-Suburbs-123748444.html

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110613/news/706139928/



http://abclocal.go.com/wls/gallery?section=news/local&id=8187230

One person injured, and of course except for an irreplaceable aircraft destroyed.

This almost looks like a model diarama. 

I wish it were.

[Flyinsarge]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

[EmergencyManager6]

They landed on the gear ( down of course) ....then fire engulfed the rest of her.

Notice the images of the firetrucks....only a brush truck.  They couldn't get water to the field.  Looks like they had to let her burn!

[arajca]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

According to the article, there are still 12 flying.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I believe I've seen that one before. (Perhaps the only one). It's a sad day.

[davidsinn]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

Still a dozen more flying. Plus it was a popular engine for the day and a lot of different types would use the same one.

[Flyinsarge]

Well, it just goes to show that a good preflight can save you plenty of trouble....and even the mighty Flying Fortress can't afford to be scanned over quickly.

[EmergencyManager6]

Well, it just goes to show that a good preflight can save you plenty of trouble....and even the mighty Flying Fortress can't afford to be scanned over quickly.

How in the world can you say that the preflight could have saved the plane?  You  have no idea what happened!

[indygreg]

Apparently, it was on it's way to Indy Regional (formerly Mt. Comfort) for Father's Day weekend rides.  Guess I'll have to ask for something else now.   

[SarDragon]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

Still a dozen more flying. Plus it was a popular engine for the day and a lot of different types would use the same one.

There are lots of planes that use the R-1820, but the version in the B-17 (R-1820-97) was only used in two or three aircraft models. Adapting one for use elsewhere is not a trivial project.

[NIN]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

They aren't making those powerplants any more, so every piece and part off those engines thats useable, jugs, pistons, connecting links, etc, are going to wind up elsewhere eventually.

There are plenty of planes besides the B-17 that use the Cyclone engine.

[Eclipse]

ABC 7 just showed a witness photo that had the plane on the ground relatively intact, so as mentioned it
must have burned on the ground - probably pretty horrible to watch.

The same witness said he was in / on the plane yesterday and the crew were commenting that it might not fly today because of
fuel leaks which the witness observed himself puddling below two of the engines.

The NTSB commented that another aircraft saw a fire onboard, reported it to the B17 and that was when they started to
try to land.

[SarDragon]

They might be able to salvage the power plants....

Except there arent any B17s who need powerplants.

They aren't making those powerplants any more, so every piece and part off those engines thats useable, jugs, pistons, connecting links, etc, are going to wind up elsewhere eventually.

There are plenty of planes besides the B-17 that use the Cyclone engine.

Yeah, there are. I have flown on on and/or worked on at least 6 of them. The crankcases and crankshafts are mostly interchangeable, but many of the other parts are not, even though they are all called R-1820s.

[NIN]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slideshow/ALeqM5hWd3tMAiwJWx3N1lTyDgAUCz7Cyg?docId=0c7adae5728a45719dc59f94857b0735&index=1

Heartwretching....

[Smithsonia]

I just found out about this. I am experiencing pain in my brain. It just hurts. I rode in the Belle twice. I am glad everyone is ok. I am sorry that her days
are over. God Bless the contribution she made to War and to Aerospace Education. If a bird has a soul - I trust her's is at peace and no longer at war.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-crews-responding-to-incident-involving-wwii-bomber-20110613,0,5852034.story

[Eclipse]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slideshow/ALeqM5hWd3tMAiwJWx3N1lTyDgAUCz7Cyg?docId=0c7adae5728a45719dc59f94857b0735&index=1

Heartwretching....

Oh man, that's the one I saw, only not in that much detail.  It shows they brought her in intact on a field, yet she could not be saved.


Those poor fire guys, too...

Another angle from Ed's story above:

[EMT-83]

Until I read the article, I didn't know that this was the same plane that was damaged by a tornado in 1979 in Connecticut.

It was an odd looking air frame, with a fifth engine mount on the nose. Pratt & Whitney used it as a test bed for turboprops. There are photos of it at the New England Air Museum, and I had always wondered what happened to it.

[wuzafuzz]

FUBAR grande.   

[davidsinn]

I didn't see it mentioned yet, but #2 was feathered so the source of the fire must be somewhere in that area.

[Slim]

While the loss of one of these national treasures is huge, look at it this way.  That 'Fort did its job one last time; it got the crew to the ground in one piece.  At the end of the day, no lives lost is what's most important.

[Flyinsarge]

While the loss of one of these national treasures is huge, look at it this way.  That 'Fort did its job one last time; it got the crew to the ground in one piece.  At the end of the day, no lives lost is what's most important.

Yep, just like all it's counterparts did long ago in Europe....

[lordmonar]

Reminds me of the B-29 that they tried to rescue from the Greenland Ice a few years back.  I remember reading the article in National Geographic (IIRC) and turning the page to see it burning up!  I was so shocked and saddened for the loss of a treasure.

Glad that no one was hurt.

[Flyinsarge]

Hey, yeah reminded me of just that! I watched a show on TV called "frozen in time" about it. The cause of that incident was an APU was left running all night and fuel leaked onto it while they were trying to take off. But there are a few more '29s than'17s, so that makes this incident worse-to me at least....

[davidsinn]

But there are a few more '29s than'17s, so that makes this incident worse-to me at least....

Say what? AFAIK there are only one or two Super Forts flying.

[NCRblues]

But there are a few more '29s than'17s, so that makes this incident worse-to me at least....

Say what? AFAIK there are only one or two Super Forts flying.

"FIFI" is the last flight certified 29 superfort in the world right now.

[davidsinn]

But there are a few more '29s than'17s, so that makes this incident worse-to me at least....

Say what? AFAIK there are only one or two Super Forts flying.

"FIFI" is the last flight certified 29 superfort in the world right now.

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

[NCRblues]

But there are a few more '29s than'17s, so that makes this incident worse-to me at least....

Say what? AFAIK there are only one or two Super Forts flying.

"FIFI" is the last flight certified 29 superfort in the world right now.

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

Ya, one called "doc" was close to flying, but a contract agreement could not be done for some odd reason.

[a2capt]

Every B-29 I've seen has been somehow placed to where you just know it's not going to 'escape' anywhere, ever again. Including one I saw inside a newly build building in Pueblo, CO- that had imprints of the door way in it's wing tips and trailing edges of the rudder.

In fact, it could not ever get out. They built it around it.

[davidsinn]

Every B-29 I've seen has been somehow placed to where you just know it's not going to 'escape' anywhere, ever again. Including one I saw inside a newly build building in Pueblo, CO- that had imprints of the door way in it's wing tips and trailing edges of the rudder.

In fact, it could not ever get out. They built it around it.

Guess you've never been to the USAF museum. Those airplanes could be removed somewhat easily.

[NC Hokie]

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

The CAF website says that FIFI will be at DuPage Airport in West Chicago the weekend of 22 July and at Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture the week after that.  I just saw it at Langley AFB last month and wanted to kick myself for not bringing cash for the tour.

[davidsinn]

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

The CAF website says that FIFI will be at DuPage Airport in West Chicago the weekend of 22 July and at Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture the week after that.  I just saw it at Langley AFB last month and wanted to kick myself for not bringing cash for the tour.

So close and yet so far. That's on the other side of Hell Chicago so I can't get there. Dang.

[NC Hokie]

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

The CAF website says that FIFI will be at DuPage Airport in West Chicago the weekend of 22 July and at Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture the week after that.  I just saw it at Langley AFB last month and wanted to kick myself for not bringing cash for the tour.

So close and yet so far. That's on the other side of Hell Chicago so I can't get there. Dang.

Well, here's their calendar  The next closest to you is St. Louis, but I imagine they'll have next year's schedule on the same page whenever they finalize it.

[NCRblues]

I know of FIFI. Been trying for most of my live to see her. Wasn't there a second for a while? Or one that's real close to being flyable?

The CAF website says that FIFI will be at DuPage Airport in West Chicago the weekend of 22 July and at Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture the week after that.  I just saw it at Langley AFB last month and wanted to kick myself for not bringing cash for the tour.

So close and yet so far. That's on the other side of Hell Chicago so I can't get there. Dang.

You could always see it at Oshkosh, then visit the beret compound

[SarDragon]

Every B-29 I've seen has been somehow placed to where you just know it's not going to 'escape' anywhere, ever again. Including one I saw inside a newly build building in Pueblo, CO- that had imprints of the door way in it's wing tips and trailing edges of the rudder.

In fact, it could not ever get out. They built it around it.

Guess you've never been to the USAF museum. Those airplanes could be removed somewhat easily.

The olde building was built around the B-36, and the end wall had to be removed before they could take to the new building.

[davidsinn]

Every B-29 I've seen has been somehow placed to where you just know it's not going to 'escape' anywhere, ever again. Including one I saw inside a newly build building in Pueblo, CO- that had imprints of the door way in it's wing tips and trailing edges of the rudder.

In fact, it could not ever get out. They built it around it.

Guess you've never been to the USAF museum. Those airplanes could be removed somewhat easily.

The olde building was built around the B-36, and the end wall had to be removed before they could take to the new building.

Didn't know that.

[Larry Mangum]

Interesting side point to the B-36. The one at the Air force Musuem, had CAP's own Lt Col Ricahrd G Shortridge as a radioman on it before he received a commission.

[Eclipse]

I didn't see it mentioned yet, but #2 was feathered so the source of the fire must be somewhere in that area.

I read an article this AM that seems to agree with this theory.

[Flyinsarge]

Oh, I thought there were more than FIFI. Opps, I need to get my facts straight Ugh, Chicago. Isn't that where the infamous Meigs Field incident happened?

[davidsinn]

Oh, I thought there were more than FIFI. Opps, I need to get my facts straight Ugh, Chicago. Isn't that where the infamous Meigs Field incident happened?

You mean where the Mayor arbitrarily closed the airfield and left aircraft stranded? Yeah.

[Flyinsarge]

First heard about it in the film One Six Right. Ugh, just sickening.

[davidsinn]

I got this in my wing AE list today:

Hi Folks,

Most is not all are aware of the unfortunate loss of Liberty Belle, one of the few remaining flyable B-17s that was consumed by fire Monday morning after a safe off-field landing near Aurora, Illinois.

Here's a link to the Liberty Foundation Website for details and pictures:

http://www.libertyfoundation.org/index.html

Here's Ray Fowler's website statement of the incident, taken from the above website:

Statement from Liberty Foundation Chief Pilot:
June 14, 2011 - First, let me start off by sincerely thanking everyone for the outpouring of support that we are receiving. I am sorry that I have not yet had the opportunity to return the many phone calls, text or e-mails that I am receiving offering to help. Again, thank you for all of the kind words that we are receiving and for incredible offers to help emotionally, financially and/or with the recovery process. I hope this statement will help fill in a few details that everyone is wondering about that led to the loss of our "Liberty Belle".

Yesterday (June 13, 2011) morning, both our P-40 and B-17 were scheduled to fly from Aurora, Illinois to Indianapolis, Indiana. We were in Aurora for the weekend as a part of our scheduled tour. Over the course of the previous week, we completed a scheduled 25-hour inspection on the B-17 which was completed by Saturday. On Saturday, the weather stayed below the required ceiling to give any passenger flights, however the B-17 flew in the morning on a routine training proficiency flight, performing several patterns. Following the flight, other maintenance issues arose that required us to cancel our Sunday flying schedule for repairs. The maintenance performed has not been, in any way, associated to the chain of events that led to Monday's fateful flight, but is being considered in the preliminary investigation. However, due to the media's sensational (mis)reporting, there is a large amount of misinformation that continues to lead the news.

Here is what we do know... Flying in the left seat of the B-17 was Capt. John Hess. John has been flying our Liberty Belle since 2005 and one of our most experienced B-17 pilots. He is an active Delta Air Lines Captain with over 14,000 hours of flying experience and flys a variety of vintage WWII aircraft. In the right seat was Bud Sittic. While Bud is new to the Liberty Foundation this year, he is also incredibly experienced with over 14,000 hours of flying time in vintage and hi-performance aircraft. He is a retired Captain with Delta Air Lines.

The news misidentified the P-40 as flying chase during the accident. I was flying our P-40, however I had departed 20 minutes prior to the B-17's takeoff on the short flight to Indianapolis to setup for the B-17's arrival. The aircraft flying chase was a T-6 Texan flown by owner Cullen Underwood. Cullen is one of our rated B-17 Captains and an experienced aviator tagging along as a support ship.

The takeoff of both aircraft was uneventful and proceeded on-course southeast. Prior to exiting Aurora's airport traffic area, the B-17 crew and passengers began investigating an acrid smell and started a turn back to the airport. Almost immediately thereafter, Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing and reported over the radio that they were on fire.

As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While an in-flight fire is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.

Directly below the B-17 was a farmer's field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine's fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location.

Unlike the sensational photos that you have all seen of the completely burned B-17 on the news, you will see from photos taken by our crew that our Liberty Belle was undamaged by the forced landing and at the time of landing, the wing fire damage was relatively small. The crew actually unloaded bags, then had the horrible task of watching the aircraft slowly burn while waiting for the fire trucks to arrive. There were high hopes that the fire would be extinguished quickly and the damage would be repairable. Those hopes were diminished as the fire trucks deemed the field too soft to cross due to the area's recent rainfall. So while standing by our burning B-17 and watching the fire trucks parked at the field's edge, they sadly watched the wing fire spread to the aircraft's fuel cells and of course, you all have seen the end result. There is no doubt that had the fire equipment been able to reach our aircraft, the fire would have been quickly
extinguished and our Liberty Belle would have been repaired to continue her worthwhile mission.

Let me go on the record by thanking the flight crew for their professionalism. Their actions were nothing short of heroic and their quick thinking, actions and experience led to a "successful" outcome to this serious in-flight emergency. John and Bud (and Cullen) did a remarkable job under extreme circumstances and performed spectacularly. While the leading news stories have repeatedly reported the "crash" of our B-17, fact is they made a successful forced landing and the aircraft was ultimately consumed by fire. Airplanes are replaceable but people are not and while the aircraft's loss is tragic, it was a successful result.

This leads me into discussing the exceptional safety record of the Boeing B-17 and to hopefully squash the naysayers who preach we should not be flying these types of aircraft. Since we first flew the "Liberty Belle" in December of 2004, we have flown over 20,000 passengers throughout the country and if you count our historic trip to Europe in 2008, worldwide. Of the other touring B-17s, some of which that have been touring for over 20 years, they have safely flown hundreds of thousands of people. The aircraft's safety record is spectacular and I am certain the overall cause of our issue, which is under investigation, will not tarnish that safety record. In fact, as many of you know, other B-17 have suffered significant damage (although not as bad as ours!), only to be re-built to fly again. From a passenger carrying standpoint, I can think of few aircraft that offer the same level of safety as the 4-engine "Flying Fortress". As mentioned
earlier, in-flight fires are extremely rare and certainly could affect any powered aircraft under certain circumstances. I would put my children today in any of the other touring B-17s to go fly. I suggest to anyone that was thinking of doing so when a B-17 visits your area to do so without giving our loss any thought.

There is wild speculation going on as to the cause of our fire and the affect to other operators. Please let the investigation run its course and report the findings. The NTSB and FAA were quickly on the scene and we are working closely with them to aid in the investigation. As soon as we receive some additional information, we will release it via the website.

The ultimate question remains, where does the Liberty Foundation go from here? After the investigation and recovery, we will determine our options. We are still committed to the restoration and flying of World War II aircraft. Again, we appreciate the support and people offering to help get us back flying.

Please check back for updates. I will close by thanking everyone that made our tour so successful. From the first day of the B-17's restoration, thank you for all of you who labored to get her flying over the initial restoration years and to everyone that has worked on her out on tour since. Thank you to the crewmembers, tour coordinators and volunteers who gave up weekends and countless hours to support her on the road. And finally, thank you to the passengers, donors and media patrons that flew aboard and everyone who supported our cause. Hopefully, this will not be the end of the story, but a new beginning.

Regards,
Ray Fowler
The Liberty Foundation, Chief Pilot

Looks like the plane made it down with little excitement but the fire department didn't think it was important enough to get mud on their trucks.

[Smithsonia]

Colorado resident Bud Sittig was one of the pilots on the Liberty Belle. He had an interview in the Denver Post this morning. SEE HERE:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18284161

[arajca]

I got this in my wing AE list today:
...snip... Looks like the plane made it down with little excitement but the fire department didn't think it was important enough to get mud on their trucks.

As a retired fire fighter, I take great offense at this comment. Fire trucks are signinifcantly heavier than your average pick up and could easily get bogged down in mud. Consider that an average pumper weighs in at over 38,000 lbs, and runs road tires, not high flotation off-highway tires like many ARFF rigs do, the chances for them getting stuck and not only being unable to extinguish the B17, but being out of service until a heavy duty recovery vehicle can pull it out push 100%. And until it is recovered, the rest of the community is without its services.

[davidsinn]

I got this in my wing AE list today:
...snip... Looks like the plane made it down with little excitement but the fire department didn't think it was important enough to get mud on their trucks.

As a retired fire fighter, I take great offense at this comment. Fire trucks are signinifcantly heavier than your average pick up and could easily get bogged down in mud. Consider that an average pumper weighs in at over 38,000 lbs, and runs road tires, not high flotation off-highway tires like many ARFF rigs do, the chances for them getting stuck and not only being unable to extinguish the B17, but being out of service until a heavy duty recovery vehicle can pull it out push 100%. And until it is recovered, the rest of the community is without its services.

Farmboy here. We take 80,000+(100k+ at times) semis out in cornfields. Fight the fire in front of you and worry about the next one after you're done. You do have mutual aid that can cover for you. The fire departments in that area are three miles apart according to google. If you get a rig stuck they can cover for you for an hour or so. An irrepleaceable aircraft like that is worth burying an apparatus. Drive till you can't and then pull hose.

[Flyinsarge]

Couldn't they have extinguished the small fire with the onboard fire extinguishers to save the airplane?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Couldn't they have extinguished the small fire with the onboard fire extinguishers to save the airplane?

Define small.

[NCRblues]

IMHO, it seems a little odd that the fire department of a farm style comunity did not have brush fire trucks available. I understand not being able to get the pumpers on the field, but where was their light weight brush trucks?

I don't live in a farm style comunity, but even out city department has 3 brush trucks that are f-150s with extended hose on the them....

Just seems odd to me...

As a non-fire fighter, could they have not brought out tanker trucks filled with water or foam, parked those on the side of the field, and got extended hose together to at least attempt to save it?

[Майор Хаткевич]

IMHO, it seems a little odd that the fire department of a farm style comunity did not have brush fire trucks available. I understand not being able to get the pumpers on the field, but where was their light weight brush trucks?

I don't live in a farm style comunity, but even out city department has 3 brush trucks that are f-150s with extended hose on the them....

Just seems odd to me...

As a non-fire fighter, could they have not brought out tanker trucks filled with water or foam, parked those on the side of the field, and got extended hose together to at least attempt to save it?

Their last Safety Briefing must have stuck with the decision maker.

[EMT-83]

For you guys who have never humped a hose, it's not that simple.

One of the photos did show a brush truck on site, which would be about as effective as the fire extinguisher sitting on the ground. As to extending hoses from tankers, if you even had the manpower to do so, that often yields just enough water to fill the hose with nothing left to fight the fire. It's pretty simple math to figure out volume, and then there's friction loss to contend with.

There is no information available as to access roads, water supply or any of the many other factors being weighed by the incident commander. So rather than sitting at your keyboard and throwing stones, maybe consider that the folks responding might actually know their response district and made decisions accordingly.

[jimmydeanno]

Corn Field.  Turn on irrigation system.  Wouldn't be much help for a fuel fire, though.

[davidsinn]

Corn Field.  Turn on irrigation system.  Wouldn't be much help for a fuel fire, though.

Won't work. Assuming there was even one in the field in the first place, the pilot would have landed well away from it. It would take upwards of two hours to spin it around to the aircraft. They are designed to run very slow. Also the water flow is way too low to make a difference on a fire.