Flying cadets in non-orientation (C-17) flights?

[Crash]

Hello team.  Had a cadet approach me recently about being able to fly in CAP aircraft on non-orientation flights.  This was an interesting question, so I contacted some local pilots for their opinion.  The responses were varied - and generated some interesting responses, although very little in the way of documentation to prove their point.

So I thought I would ask my fellow com padres here your thoughts on this.  Let's start with some assumptions:  Private Pilot, is over 18 years of age, senior officer, 200+ hours PIC, Instrument rated, and Cadet Orientation Pilot.

So my question is, for a non-orientation flight (say C-17) can a cadet ride along:

* On any flight?
* On a Day VFR flight?
* On a Night VFR flight?
* On any IFR flight?

Other than actual missions, are there times when a cadet is actually prohibited to fly?  Rumor has it that a cadet cannot fly at night, period.  However I do not see anything in the CAPR 60-1 that specifically prohibits that action.

On your responses, please include any current CAP regulations or Policies in support of your response.

This should be fun.  And hey, this is a serious question, so please do respond.

[Al Sayre]

I see nothing that would prohibit any of the activities you list in any regulation, however your wing supplement may have additional restrictions that I did not check.  I would not generally recommend taking a cadet that was unrelated to me on IFR in IMC unless they were a "frequent flyer" simply because of the fear factor, or if you plan to do any stalls or other increased risk procedures.  Other than that, I see no issue provided you have the parents permission.

[Eclipse]

There are no regulatory CPT issues, either.

[EMT-83]

60-1 is very specific about flying cadets. I would say, unless otherwise prohibited, you're good to go.

[PHall]

Flying non-crewmembers on training flights isn't unheard of, but it's rarely done because of all of the hassles of having "passengers" aboard the aircraft.
Mainly, somebody has to manifest them, watch them and ensure their safety during the entire flight.
And there are some training events that can not be performed while passengers are aboard. (i.e. Co-Pilot touch and go landings.)
And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

Phil Hall, Retired C-141C Flight Engineer

[davidsinn]

Flying non-crewmembers on training flights isn't unheard of, but it's rarely done because of all of the hassles of having "passengers" aboard the aircraft.
Mainly, somebody has to manifest them, watch them and ensure their safety during the entire flight.
And there are some training events that can not be performed while passengers are aboard. (i.e. Co-Pilot touch and go landings.)
And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

Phil Hall, Retired C-141C Flight Engineer

I don't think he means C-17 Globemaster III but means a C-17(corporate, self funded proficiency I think) mission profile.

[Eclipse]

And then there's the "fun" of getting your State Director to actually make the request and do the needed coordination. Good luck with that.

What coordination?  Why would the SD need to be involved?

I read this as self-funded proficiency hours where the pilot wants to take a cadet.   Anything that involves actual training under a mission number (monthly or other) that the SD cares about would likely bar the cadet from participating from the get go.

SD's aren't involved for hamburger runs...

[FW]

^unless the SD is going...

[davidsinn]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

[Thrashed]

The O flight syllabus prohibits passengers in the back seat during the flight with stalls (#8 or powered #3).  One may read that to mean not having passengers in the back seat on other flights with stalls (training) too.?  This would only apply to those flights planning stall training, I see no other restriction.

[Al Sayre]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

Yes, it can be done, but I think the issue is more about taking a cadet on a $100 burger (C-17) run.

[davidsinn]

If he's already an o-ride pilot why not do an o-ride profile under a B mission? Can that be done?

Yes, it can be done, but I think the issue is more about taking a cadet on a $100 burger (C-17) run.

Just do a profile outbound and then one inbound. Then you have two o-rides done and it makes a lot of people look good. Same basic effect but better appearance.

That doesn't answer the OP's question though.

[jeders]

Assuming that, for a C-17 mission, everyone is a current member and wearing a uniform, then the only prohibition I can find is this:

Aircraft will not carry CAP or AFROTC/AFJROTC cadets on board during the first 10 tach hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders/magnetos.

Now this doesn't include any region or wing supplements that you may be subject to, but national doesn't seem to have a prohibition on it.

Edit to add:
After looking through national's approved supplements of 60-1, I cannot find any supplement that would prohibit a cadet flying on a C-17 mission as a passenger, assuming the pilot is a SM.

[SJFedor]

To my knowledge, there's no problem with it. And WIWAC and just starting to get into flying, i frequently jumped at the chance to tag along on flights, be it maintenance flights, aircraft repositioning, or whatever else.

[ol'fido]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

[Eclipse]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

I got my droid x wet...I'll be sending the bill to your inbox soon sir.

[ol'fido]

I lived about a mile from the airport WIWAC. The pilots claimed that I could hear the 0-1 turn over from that distance because once they were done with their warmup and ready to taxi, they would see me coming over the bridge on foot or bike to go along for the ride.

Who flew you more?  Orville or Wilber?

Which one had the moustache?

[Crash]

Hey gang, this is great stuff!  Sorry for the long delay in replying to these numerous posts. 

These are great comments.  Biggest concerns I heard of back here at home have been more along the lines of liability having cadets on board.  Trying to avoid the Cadet Orientation route, because then it's now a training flight, and cadets are only allowed .7 to 1.2 hours of flight time.  Then we would also have to follow a certain syllabus, etc..  Takes the fun out of a C-17 / $100 hamburger ride.  I have non-pilot seniors at my squadron signing up for these rides left and right.  Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

I have heard a few requests like tagging along on the $100 hamburger run, to flying out to the CAP glider park, to just wanting to fly to some of the air museums located at various airports.  Good stuff here. 

Here's one last question, regulatory-style.  Let's say next week an aircraft needs to be flown out to our centralized maintenance facility to pick up the pilot that just dropped off the aircraft scheduled for it's annual.  Single cadet wants to tag along (and in my opinion - should).  An Mx mission is an A9 mission and has a mission number.  In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

[jeders]

Only issue I have really seen is flying a single cadet on a non-orientation ride is a no-no due to Cadet protection policies, so in that case, an orientation flight would be a must.

Says who, airplanes and chaplains are the bright line exception to the no one-on-one rule.

In that case, a cadet IS authorized to fly in that aircraft because it has an air force mission number associated with it, right?  Thoughts?

C-17 or A-9, the same rules apply, which means yes, cadets can go.