CAP Talk

Please oh Please convince the CAP to abandon the plastic encased rank. It was abandoned by the Military years ago as it was just a pain in the butt. Washing is pain putting them on is a pain and they turn green almost overnight. Why does the CAP stick with them. The Cold War is over leave the past behind.

They may be going away, but not because of anything CAP does. Vanguard, according to what the rep at the NB said, can't find a good supplier.

I mostly agree, but have never seen one that is green.

If they are too much trouble just get a blue flightsuit. They look better, anyway.

Eclipse, you have a great point and I indeed did purchase one. However I have asked the question and it appears you may know the answer. Where does it have the reg that you can wear the embroardered rank on it and for the dark blue is it the dark blue rank?. I have seen it mentioned in places but like some of the regs hard to read for sure. I like the blue much better and you can get them on Ebay much cheaper than Vanguard and they are really nice. We fly out of Dover AFB so its nice to wear the blue and there is no chance of confusion with the Military who fly. I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right. We fly every day out of the base and upon entry to the Base get saluted many times. The blue suit avoids that confusion.
So hope you can point us all in the right direction on the proper rank type for the Navy blue flight suit.
Thanks

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right. We fly every day out of the base and upon entry to the Base get saluted many times. The blue suit avoids that confusion.

First, thank you for your service.  Second, you are right, your comment about rank and getting saluted is stupid.  We are Civil Air Patrol.  Our Uniforms may be a variant of the AF's, but they are fundamentally a Civil Air Patrol Uniform.  If you have a concern about wearing your Captain Rank Insignia, the quick fix would be to stop wearing it. 

If you have trouble returning a salute, then I fear your time in the Service did not teach you anything.  Being saluted is a courtesy the gate guard is throwing your way because he or she believes you to be an Officer.  They don't have to do it, as they are smart enough to know you are in the Civil Air Patrol.  I hope you returned it.  There are many that would rather argue with the Airman and make a point of saying "oh don't ever salute me or CAP members, you don't have to"  That only makes the Airman feel stupid and makes you look like a jerk.  (Note, not you, I used "you" to reference others, as I have no idea what you did in that situation.

I am going to make a leap of judgement here and say you are in the membership category that would rather get rid of everything military about CAP?

Now, I mean no offense to you, as you have not posted enough for me to make a real judgement but based on your post above, it matches others in the "no military aspect of CAP" membership group. 

If I am wrong, let me know, but it sure seems that way to me.

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right.

There's a solution for this - resign you captaincy and become a NCO. As a former TSgt, you qualify to be a CAP NCO. Then the issue of returning salutes goes away. You just have to initiate them. OR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.

But I digress. Give it about three months before worrying about plastic encase grade insignia. The Vanguard rep said it would take about that to see if they can reliably get plastic encased grade insignia.

Quote from: arajca on March 09, 2008, 07:28:02 PM

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:01:56 PM
I was proud to be a ex TSgt in the USAF with 2 tours in VN but still have a problem wearing a military uniform with Captians bars. May be stupid but just does not feel right.

There's a solution for this - resign you captaincy and become a NCO. As a former TSgt, you qualify to be a CAP NCO. Then the issue of returning salutes goes away. You just have to initiate them. OR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.

But I digress. Give it about three months before worrying about plastic encase grade insignia. The Vanguard rep said it would take about that to see if they can reliably get plastic encased grade insignia.

I agree... if you want to stay a TSgt... (no reason why you shouldn't), just change in to an NCO and put on your TSgt chevrons. Then you can wear your green bag without issues.

By the way, they salute the grade insignia (rank), not the color of the flightsuit, so you wearing a blue one probably won't change it. Most people will just assume you're a USCG Lieutenant.

With the respect I am sure you are due, you have misjudged the statements completely. Of course I would always return the salute as it is always an honor to be saluted. However I do not propose the CAP do away with all that is military at all. We are in a unique position to be on a USAF installation so things here become easly confused. When at a conference or other Wing type function I am proud to wear the AF style uniform and I do wear CAP and the combat ribbons I did earn, We all paid dear to wear them. I will never feel we are anything but a important part of the USAF and should act as such, we just have a much differant mission.
However every day we are around young men both officer and enlisted who are going or comming from Iraq or other places of conflict. It is us that should be saluting them not the other way around only because of confusion. Beleive me many do get confused.
I only have rank on the flight suit because at a SAR practice a short time ago I did not wear rank on my flight suit as I never have. I was in not so polite of terms reamed for not having them on by a person of rank who had never served in or near the Military. I still have respect for his rank because he wears it and is in fact a Commander, however I will never confuse the two.
Please do not interpit anything here to mean any disrespect toward's any person of any rank in the CAP it is only a personal opinion, that some may feel is right and others may feel is wrong.

afgeo4
Got to admit you put a bullet in me with the USCG one. Score 10 points on that one as I never would have thought of that and we have 2 USCG stations within 50 miles of us. I guess that is pretty valid. However being around the CAP for a short while (my first Form 5 check ride was Sept 1975) one thing I did learn is if you intend to move up and do certain jobs, and I will be honest I do wish to do certain things in the CAP that include upward mobility you will never do it as a TSgt. That is just reality. Staying a MP it is fine however today we have some very unique missions and a whole new structure in the NIMS and ICS world and in my Civilian job am very involved in that world. So I am guilty of wanting to now participate at a higher level. I was in the Army as a Spec 4 and the USAF as a Tsgt and they were great ranks to be but in the CAP it just does not work the same.
However your point is well taken and respected.

As for Vanguard well yes they are having a great bit of difficulty to say the least finding a supplier. They have not had Captain bars for a very long long time and don't think they will anytime soon.

To answer the actual >QUESTION< it is contained in one of the many ICL's floating around.

The ICL consolidation letter sent by the iCC contains what you need:

Quote from: iCC's Changes to 39-1 Letter, dated 25 January 2008
(3) CAP Distinctive Flight suit. Effective 15 March 2006, a dark blue
NOMEX flight suit was approved for wear by CAP members. This item will be worn with
the same badges and devices as the currently authorized CAP distinctive ultramarine
blue flight suit. The ultramarine blue flight suit will be phased out 1 March 2009.

(4) Embroidered grade insignia on flight suits. Effective 15 March
2006, embroidered grade insignia, as well as the currently authorized plastic encased
insignia, is authorized on the CAP distinctive flight suits. If embroidered grade is worn,
ultramarine blue grade insignia will be worn on the ultramarine blue NOMEX flight suit
and dark blue grade insignia will be worn on the dark blue utility uniform and new
NOMEX flight suit.

Link: http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_01_25_Uniforms.pdf

^ Back to the original statement, I also agree plastic encased rank insignia should be eliminated.  This was one of the many uniform issues (that should have been) could have been worked out at the recent boards.  Instead we get a silly "eliminate grey braid and give us blue to distinguish us from the AF" proposal.  In reality the person heading up the uniform committee at NHQ should resign his position for allowing that issue with the reasoning used to even be written down.
Man......they really had a chance to fix the uniform issues CAP wide, but instead discussed stupid issues like approving Boonie hats that have been denied by USAF for the past 10 years.

Am I off key here?  Was anyone else a little ticked off?

Can someone explain to me how some of you really hard corp military guys can get off saying "I take it you want to get rid of all things military in CAP?"

There's such thing as balance and compromise, and frankly, that line of bull is pathetic and insulting towards the bulk of CAP members.

^Sadly, there are those that would prefer nothing "military-esque" in CAP.  However our organizations history and mere operating method dictates we use some of the military establishments methods and ways. 

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 09, 2008, 08:47:36 PM
Am I off key here?  Was anyone else a little ticked off?

I was! Especially after there was a 57+ page post dedicated to well thought out uniform suggestions...

QuoteOR you could just say the heck with all grade and remain a SMWOG.

That doesn't get you out of anything as far as customs and courtesy's go. 

You know, it's been a long time since I've posted here.  I've gone through some life changes and have learned that it is indeed possible to speak your mind on an internet forum without making people mad.  You just have to be very careful what you say. 

With that in mind, what I am about to say is in no way designed to irritate or annoy. 

I believe that it is entirely possible for CAP to be a corporation in charter but a military auxiliary in atmosphere.  It's not that I don't care for the corporation, it's just that I don't care for the attitude that because CAP is a corporation in charter, it must also be a corporation in atmosphere. 

CAP can be a corporation without everyone wearing grey slacks and polo shirts and addressing each other by their first name.  It can also be a corporation without having "corporate uniforms" or phrases such as "you must protect the corporation." 

I have discovered that so much of this "corporate mindset" is because of legal reasons; the corporation is what protects CAP from lawsuits.  I understand that.  However, that doesn't mean that people have to take all the military traditions and customs of CAP and chuck them out the window. 

In the end, all the "corporate mindset" does is confuse the cadets and eat away at CAP's heritage and traditions.  It is a military auxiliary, even if it isin't as close to its parent organization as the Coast Guard Auxiliary is.  To that end, it should be treated like the auxiliary of the USAF and not just another corporation.

Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

I wonder how many people know that distinction?   I have never served a day in the military and I know the difference.  Maybe it's my cadet training, I don't know.

But I think the "corporate mindset" has a lot to do with people thinking that the uniform is just another piece of clothing and that service in CAP is just another volunteer activity.  Many of these people see CAP as just another corporation and forget that it is a military auxiliary with customs and traditions similar to those of the Air Force. 

Please don't get me wrong... I'm not saying CAP should get rid of the corporation altogether... but I do think the attitude that CAP should be like a corporation in every way should be done away with.  It was never designed to have the atmosphere of a corporation, so why make it into something it was never designed to be?   
 

To the original poster, I and many others here agree with you about out of date uniform items.

It's been hashed out time and time again in this forum about leather name tags, plastic rank, smurf blue nametapes, etc...

I know that we tend to focus a lot on uniforms, but if I could change one thing about this organization it would be to allow us to keep up with the changes the AF makes.  Our mandatory wear dates could be extended, but at least allow the members to wear up-to-date uniforms if they choose.

Quote from: CCSE on March 09, 2008, 11:51:26 PM
Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

That is the finest wording on this matter I have read here to date. 

As a Squadron Commander of a composite squadron I have the opportunity to deal with cadets on a personal level.  I know the cadet oath...some CAP Officers find it "hokey" and "campy."   Maybe that is a product of the times, too cynical...no idealism and optimism left.   

I believe in what the cadet oath entails and I believe it needs to be more than a phrase to begin a meeting.  That should be our default..."service to our community, State and Nation."

Definately more than a mere "suit" or "costume."

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 01:09:54 AM

Quote from: CCSE on March 09, 2008, 11:51:26 PM
Here's an illustration I just came up with.   A suit is another piece of clothing in the closet; a uniform is something more.  When a corporate employee puts his suit on and goes to work, it's another day at work and he represents only the corporation.  However, when a CAP member puts his uniform on and goes to a meeting, he is serving his community, state and nation and he is representing both the CAP and the USAF.

That is the finest wording on this matter I have read here to date. 

As a Squadron Commander of a composite squadron I have the opportunity to deal with cadets on a personal level.  I know the cadet oath...some CAP Officers find it "hokey" and "campy."   Maybe that is a product of the times, too cynical...no idealism and optimism left.   

I believe in what the cadet oath entails and I believe it needs to be more than a phrase to begin a meeting.  That should be our default..."service to our community, State and Nation."

Definately more than a mere "suit" or "costume."

And I've noticed that SMs who are former cadets are more apt to wear the BDUs or blues than the polos and corporates.  I think those cadet days have a lot to do with that because of the pride and comfort in that uniform that was developed back then.

In my experience, new members who are not military or former cadets of some kind very rarely wear anything other than a polo and/or a flight suit.  Some who deal directly with cadets will wear the white/grays.  Every one of us in our squadron who are former cadets almost always wear AF uniforms.

Very good post, CCSE!

Thank you for the kind words, Majors Carrales and Kachenmeister. 

Just trying to get back into CAPTalk without causing waves... I just completed troll rehab...  (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 09, 2008, 10:35:59 PM
^Sadly, there are those that would prefer nothing "military-esque" in CAP.  However our organizations history and mere operating method dictates we use some of the military establishments methods and ways. 

That response has nothing to do with anything.

What I'm saying is that most members don't want to dump everything military related, some just might want to find a less delicate balance between the military and non military.

For the record, I'm for the militaryish side.

Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2008, 01:53:07 AM
What I'm saying is that most members don't want to dump everything military related, some just might want to find a less delicate balance between the military and non military.

For the record, I'm for the militaryish side.

That's what I'm saying, too.  What you're referring to is the "corporate mindset" of some members who would gladly get rid of the military customs and traditions of CAP and replace them with corporate customs and traditions.

What they are doing is trying to make CAP's atmosphere into something they're more comfortable and familiar with.  Most of them come from the corporate world, and want CAP to change to accomodate them rather than the other way around. 

You know, I am impressed with you, FO Themann.  You kind of remind me of myself.  I, too am a former cadet and wish to preserve the military customs and traditions of CAP.  I have read your posts and I can tell you think critically and I am sure you are a good leader.  Keep fighting the good fight and preserving CAP's customs, heritage and traditions. 

So back to getting rid of the plastic encased grade insignia. We could always use Navy rank insignia for flight suits. Full color grade insignia on OD, added bonus the edges are already finished  :)

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100050.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100045.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100040.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100035.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100030.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100025.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100020.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100015.jpg)

Or we could just use the existing CAP embroirdered grade insignia on dark blue.

Quote from: JThemann on March 09, 2008, 10:20:44 PM
Can someone explain to me how some of you really hard corp military guys can get off saying "I take it you want to get rid of all things military in CAP?"

There's such thing as balance and compromise, and frankly, that line of bull is pathetic and insulting towards the bulk of CAP members.

It's spelled corps, not corp.

The term is hard core, not hard corps.

GC

Quote from: arajca on March 10, 2008, 03:24:52 AM
Or we could just use the existing CAP embroirdered grade insignia on dark blue.

And change all the other insignia to dark blue, too.  I don't like the ultramarine blue; I think it is woefully out of date, just like the plastic encased rank insignia.

Quote from: CCSE on March 10, 2008, 03:36:51 AM

Quote from: arajca on March 10, 2008, 03:24:52 AM
Or we could just use the existing CAP embroirdered grade insignia on dark blue.

And change all the other insignia to dark blue, too.  I don't like the ultramarine blue; I think it is woefully out of date, just like the plastic encased rank insignia.

That's on the bdu/bbdu, not the flightsuit. I think such a suggestion is making its way through the pipeline and will probably be implemented with the authorization to start wearing the abu's.

Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 10, 2008, 02:57:01 AM
So back to getting rid of the plastic encased grade insignia. We could always use Navy rank insignia for flight suits. Full color grade insignia on OD, added bonus the edges are already finished  :)

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100050.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100045.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100040.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100035.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100030.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100025.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100020.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100015.jpg)

There's a couple of things:

The Capt insignia is the sea service design, we use the Army/Air Force design

The Maj & Lt Col leaves are also different - different shape (slight, but noticeable)

The sea services sew on their rank insignia so it's really large (square) where we sew them on to conform more to the shape and size of the insignia - once again, this is sea service stuff.

I do, however, agree that we should use the full color sew-on embroidered rather than the plastic stuff.  There's no reason why not - it certainly sets us apart from our RM brethren.

GC

Quote from: piperl4 on March 09, 2008, 07:54:41 PM
afgeo4
Got to admit you put a bullet in me with the USCG one. Score 10 points on that one as I never would have thought of that and we have 2 USCG stations within 50 miles of us. I guess that is pretty valid. However being around the CAP for a short while (my first Form 5 check ride was Sept 1975) one thing I did learn is if you intend to move up and do certain jobs, and I will be honest I do wish to do certain things in the CAP that include upward mobility you will never do it as a TSgt. That is just reality. Staying a MP it is fine however today we have some very unique missions and a whole new structure in the NIMS and ICS world and in my Civilian job am very involved in that world. So I am guilty of wanting to now participate at a higher level. I was in the Army as a Spec 4 and the USAF as a Tsgt and they were great ranks to be but in the CAP it just does not work the same.
However your point is well taken and respected.

As for Vanguard well yes they are having a great bit of difficulty to say the least finding a supplier. They have not had Captain bars for a very long long time and don't think they will anytime soon.

CAP is funny when it comes to grade. Most people don't care what grade you are when it comes to unit leadership and operational leadership/position. That's the official CAP stance too. However, if you want to be a Wing Staff officer or higher, you'll pretty much need to be an officer and not and NCO. Technically you don't, but I just think most Wing CC's would almost insist on it. Aside from that, there should be nothing that isn't accessible to an NCO in CAP that is accessible to an officer (aside from USAF PME exams).

Quote from: jaybird512 on March 10, 2008, 01:17:01 AM
[
In my experience, new members who are not military or former cadets of some kind very rarely wear anything other than a polo and/or a flight suit.  Some who deal directly with cadets will wear the white/grays.  Every one of us in our squadron who are former cadets almost always wear AF uniforms.

Maybe it is because they feel comfortable with easy to maintain uniforms like the polo shirt or flight suit? 

Quote from: Short Field on March 10, 2008, 04:19:20 AM
Maybe it is because they feel comfortable with easy to maintain uniforms like the polo shirt or flight suit? 

Bit of a "cop out" wouldn't you say.  Not exactally excellence in all we do.

But seriously, what we need to fight is the "sliding line."  That "path of least resistance" that pushes us into an unprofessional appearance. 

By this I mean, if they say "Polo shirts can be worn with grey slacks" we see people in a faded polo and ratty jeans...sometimes grey...sometimes so old that they shine.  That is unprofessional.

As for rank, the plastic encased items are cumbersome and, at least in South Texas, expensive to have put on (like 30 dollars) due to its unusual nature.  I believe it is time to retire or "optionalize" that rank infavor of a more modern option.

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 04:25:00 AM
As for rank, the plastic encased items are cumbersome and, at least in South Texas, expensive to have put on (like 30 dollars) due to its unusual nature.

There's another reason the plastic encased ranks have to go - $$$.

The cloth rank insignias are more economical than the plastic ones.     

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 04:25:00 AMI believe it is time to retire or "optionalize" that rank infavor of a more modern option.

No, I think that CAP should just get rid of them altogether.  They are out of date, cumbersome, and expensive.   

Quote from: CCSE on March 10, 2008, 04:31:19 AM
No, I think that CAP should just get rid of them altogether.  They are out of date, cumbersome, and expensive.   

Optionalize is the first reasonable step in getting rid of them.  Like an unofficial phase out.

1) Optionalize it in favor of a more popular item

2) wide spread use of cloth rank

3) phase out date

4) only a handful of die hards will wear them to the sunset date.

Logical and viable.

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 04:25:00 AM

Quote from: Short Field on March 10, 2008, 04:19:20 AM
Maybe it is because they feel comfortable with easy to maintain uniforms like the polo shirt or flight suit? 

Bit of a "cop out" wouldn't you say.  Not exactally excellence in all we do.

But seriously, what we need to fight is the "sliding line."  That "path of least resistance" that pushes us into an unprofessional appearance. 

By this I mean, if they say "Polo shirts can be worn with grey slacks" we see people in a faded polo and ratty jeans...sometimes grey...sometimes so old that they shine.  That is unprofessional.

As for rank, the plastic encased items are cumbersome and, at least in South Texas, expensive to have put on (like 30 dollars) due to its unusual nature.  I believe it is time to retire or "optionalize" that rank infavor of a more modern option.

Ship it up to Nashville and I'll get it done for you. All the Metro Nashville PD line officers (Lt's, Capt's, etc) have the plastic mounted grade insignia on their cold weather jackets. I got my Capt bars attached to my flight suit for $3.20 or something in that neighborhood.

Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2008, 04:25:00 AM
By this I mean, if they say "Polo shirts can be worn with grey slacks" we see people in a faded polo and ratty jeans...sometimes grey...sometimes so old that they shine.  That is unprofessional. 

As for rank, the plastic encased items are cumbersome and, at least in South Texas, expensive to have put on (like 30 dollars) due to its unusual nature.  I believe it is time to retire or "optionalize" that rank infavor of a more modern option.

A CAP Uniform is a CAP Uniform.  The only unprofessional part would be someone not pointing out to the member that they were wearing a faded polo shirt and ratty jeans and needed to update their uniform.    We jump on people who need a haircut in a military style uniform (worst offenders are ones in flight suits) and anyone who is wearing a worn out uniforms.   

One of my peeves is seeing people in the Air Force Style uniform with a wrinkled blue shirt.  It takes a starch job at a laundry to make it look decent.  You can get by with spray starch and a iron but that fades after about 4 hours.

The plastic encased rank cost me the same to get sewed on as the other sew-on rank - about two dollars a uniform.   Thirty bucks is really ripping you off!

Quote from: Short Field on March 10, 2008, 05:00:12 AM

The plastic encased rank cost me the same to get sewed on as the other sew-on rank - about two dollars a uniform.   Thirty bucks is really ripping you off!

Not me, I don't currently wear a flight suit...I reserve that for those of the more direct Aviation pursuasion, pilots and aircrew.  Kingsville is a Navy town...and you bet your sweet bippy Corpus Christi is one as well.  I don't think anyone around here uses plastic encased rank...maybe it is the sheer "novelty" of it.

Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 10, 2008, 02:57:01 AM
So back to getting rid of the plastic encased grade insignia. We could always use Navy rank insignia for flight suits. Full color grade insignia on OD, added bonus the edges are already finished  :)

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100050.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100045.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100040.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100035.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100030.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100025.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100020.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100015.jpg)

My question is why isn't something like this done for the other services.  Maybe it has and I'm just not aware of it, but it makes a lot of sense.  There would be no question of whether you folded the material under to the right size border.  It would be a lot easier to sew on.

It would, of course, cost a little more to get the edges finished, but it would be so much easier.

I'm a bit late...but to CCSE....I sir, salute you.

Your eloquent comments on the corporate &  military differences was well thought out and conveyed.

Thank you for your comment  that was respectful and reasoned.

I just wish I would have thought of it.

Quote from: Smokey on March 10, 2008, 04:06:02 PM
I'm a bit late...but to CCSE....I sir, salute you.

Your eloquent comments on the corporate &  military differences was well thought out and conveyed.

Thank you for your comment  that was respectful and reasoned.

I just wish I would have thought of it.

Thank you for the kind words, sir.  I salute you for your service. 

...And I want you to know you have the coolest job in CAP!   8)

Quote from: Gunner C on March 10, 2008, 03:45:27 AM

Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 10, 2008, 02:57:01 AM
So back to getting rid of the plastic encased grade insignia. We could always use Navy rank insignia for flight suits. Full color grade insignia on OD, added bonus the edges are already finished  :)

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100050.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100045.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100040.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100035.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100030.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100025.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100020.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100015.jpg)

There's a couple of things:

The Capt insignia is the sea service design, we use the Army/Air Force design

The Maj & Lt Col leaves are also different - different shape (slight, but noticeable)

The sea services sew on their rank insignia so it's really large (square) where we sew them on to conform more to the shape and size of the insignia - once again, this is sea service stuff.

I do, however, agree that we should use the full color sew-on embroidered rather than the plastic stuff.  There's no reason why not - it certainly sets us apart from our RM brethren.

GC

You know the funny part is, when I was in the Navy there were some Pilots who had the wrong insignia on their flight suites. Considering that the Navy and MC are the only ones who use these it really doesn't make sense how they got them. Then again they are made by Vanguard. Now if we could just get our hands on those, no wait that would require vanguard admitting they screwed up.

Quote from: arajca on March 10, 2008, 03:24:52 AM
Or we could just use the existing CAP embroidered grade insignia on dark blue.

There's a NB item from almost two years ago asking USAF for permission to do just that. We still have not heard any reply - Yes or No - from them.

This might be the time ask again "Our supplier can no longer get the plastic insignia."

Quote from: wacapgh on March 10, 2008, 08:01:02 PM

Quote from: arajca on March 10, 2008, 03:24:52 AM
Or we could just use the existing CAP embroidered grade insignia on dark blue.

There's a NB item from almost two years ago asking USAF for permission to do just that. We still have not heard any reply - Yes or No - from them.

This might be the time ask again "Our supplier can no longer get the plastic insignia."

The AF may just approve it since this problem is beyond our control and it's not about trying to look just like the AF.

I honestly believe the AF will just say...."take the rank off the shoulders altogether, you already have it on the badge".

However if they don't, I would suggest we use the same colors the AF uses, why would we use navy/MC rank insignia colors, were not their Auxiliary?!?!?

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 08:59:14 PM
I honestly believe the AF will just say...."take the rank off the shoulders altogether, you already have it on the badge".

However if they don't, I would suggest we use the same colors the AF uses, why would we use navy/MC rank insignia colors, were not their Auxiliary?!?!?

I can almost certainly say that the Air Force will not let CAP use the same flight suit rank insignia colors they do.  They have already forbidden CAP from doing this with the BDU, and that is why CAP is still stuck with the ultramarine blue cloth insignia and tapes.

Full color rank insignia just like the kind on the BDU is the best option in my opinion.  It is distinctive but similar to the Air Force.  If you have a CAP officer wearing full color rank insignia on the flight suit, he/she won't be mistaken for an AF officer.

In fact, with the current plastic rank insignia, a CAP officer is more likely to be mistaken for an AF officer than if the full color rank insignias are worn.       

Quote from: CCSE on March 10, 2008, 09:11:10 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 08:59:14 PM
I honestly believe the AF will just say...."take the rank off the shoulders altogether, you already have it on the badge".

However if they don't, I would suggest we use the same colors the AF uses, why would we use navy/MC rank insignia colors, were not their Auxiliary?!?!?

I can almost certainly say that the Air Force will not let CAP use the same flight suit rank insignia colors they do.  They have already forbidden CAP from doing this with the BDU, and that is why CAP is still stuck with the ultramarine blue cloth insignia and tapes.

Full color rank insignia just like the kind on the BDU is the best option in my opinion.  It is distinctive but similar to the Air Force.  If you have a CAP officer wearing full color rank insignia on the flight suit, he/she won't be mistaken for an AF officer.

In fact, with the current plastic rank insignia, a CAP officer is more likely to be mistaken for an AF officer than if the full color rank insignias are worn.       

Guys, how about a little pride in our CAP uniforms. I know the ultramarine stuff is ugly, but let's have pride in it! I'm glad it's ugly!

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 10, 2008, 08:59:14 PM
I honestly believe the AF will just say...."take the rank off the shoulders altogether, you already have it on the badge".

However if they don't, I would suggest we use the same colors the AF uses, why would we use navy/MC rank insignia colors, were not their Auxiliary?!?!?

My only reasoning for suggesting those is because they are full color, the Air Force only has subdued insignia for the flight suit. All tough I would not object to the dark blue, that may just make it easier to get permission to use dark blue on the BDU's or ABU's.

Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2008, 09:30:22 PM
Guys, how about a little pride in our CAP uniforms. I know the ultramarine stuff is ugly, but let's have pride in it!

Well, since the ultramarine blue dosen't seem to be going away anytime soon, for now we have no choice.

Quote from: JThemann on March 10, 2008, 09:30:22 PMI'm glad it's ugly!

I'm not.  I guess this is where we differ in thought.  

Dark blue looks more professional and doesn't hurt the eyes as much.  CAP is already wearing dark blue rank insignia on the blue flight suit, anyway.  For the sake of standardization, it would make sense to just switch over to dark blue for every applicable uniform.    

QuoteGuys, how about a little pride in our CAP uniforms. I know the ultramarine stuff is ugly, but let's have pride in it! I'm glad it's ugly!

   Dude, you need some serious help.  The fashion police are already on our butt, we don't need to be committing any more fashion felonies!

BTW....I watched the movie  Andromeda Strain this morning (1971)....the Air Force characters had the ultramarine blue name tapes in the movie.  It looked bad even then!!!!

As of last year...I ran into a regular AF female Lt Col who still wore plastic grade insignia on her flightsuit.  She was in the medical field. She is retired now.

Quote from: 2d Lt Rudin on March 10, 2008, 02:57:01 AM
So back to getting rid of the plastic encased grade insignia. We could always use Navy rank insignia for flight suits. Full color grade insignia on OD, added bonus the edges are already finished  :)

(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100050.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100045.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100040.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100035.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100030.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100025.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100020.jpg)(http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/images/7100015.jpg)

There are slight design differences on the captain, major, and lt. co. ranks on the Navy versions.

Vanguard does not have the plastic Captains bars anymore. I decided to try the dark blue suit just for the heck of it and to make life easy. I ordered embroidered Captains bars and it said for the dark blue flying suit. Now they came in and they are silver/white on dark blue backgrounds. Can someone tell me if this is indeed correct. I read the reg as saying they must be "dark blue" in color not referring to the background but the bars. So even with the dark blue flying suit which is really nice by the way and ebay has the same nomex suit for a 1/4 the cost. they still do not have the proper bars. Am I wrong in this. The Silver/white looks ok but just a little to bright against the dark blue.

All of the insignia that we wear is full color insignia, never subdued.

Dark blue refers to the color of the fabric, not the insignia. Just like ultramarine blue is the color of the fabric, not the insignia.

Quote from: piperl4 on March 20, 2008, 07:45:00 PM
Vanguard does not have the plastic Captains bars anymore. I decided to try the dark blue suit just for the heck of it and to make life easy. I ordered embroidered Captains bars and it said for the dark blue flying suit. Now they came in and they are silver/white on dark blue backgrounds. Can someone tell me if this is indeed correct. I read the reg as saying they must be "dark blue" in color not referring to the background but the bars. So even with the dark blue flying suit which is really nice by the way and ebay has the same nomex suit for a 1/4 the cost. they still do not have the proper bars. Am I wrong in this. The Silver/white looks ok but just a little to bright against the dark blue.

Silver should be fine.  If someone gets worked up because your 1st Lt bars are silver instead of white, just brush it off; most people don't care.  In fact, silver looks much better than white.   

What vanguard is probably doing is selling the old rank insignias that AF missileers used to wear with the same type of flight suit.  

IMO, all embroidered CAP officer insignia should be gold and silver, regardless of background fabric.  This white and orange stuff is really tacky.  Not only that, but the colors do not match their metal counterparts.

And when you think about it, silver/gold officer rank insignia are entirely appropriate for the blue flight suit; the plastic ranks were also full color. 

Not a very good picture, but these guys make Army/AF-style grade full-color on OD background:
http://www.1800nametape.com/vadf.htm#OFFICER (http://www.1800nametape.com/vadf.htm#OFFICER)

Obviously, vangaurd already does our full color on ultramarine blue. No problem to switch background fabric to something already widely avail & used. Any embroidery operation should be able to turn that around pretty quickly.

The OD ones might be closer in appearance to what we had with the plastic encased, but I think it would be better to have the same insignia for all the bags with the navy blue background insignia already produced, instead of insignia that is only worn on the sage green flight suit and jackets.

Quote from: MIKE on March 22, 2008, 02:57:46 PM
The OD ones might be closer in appearance to what we had with the plastic encased, but I think it would be better to have the same insignia for all the bags with the navy blue background insignia already produced, instead of insignia that is only worn on the sage green flight suit and jackets.

You need to also factor in how many blue bags are being worn as opposed to green bags.  Why make more of one item if another item is already available, and matches better.  Why must I wear a blue piece of cloth, just to make those with it already even happier??

^ second, plus it's really just a matter of aesthetics & you're talking about a 75cent item. I'm all for dark blue tapes on the BBDU & OD on the BDU as well (w/ full color print), but that's another thread we've already done a couple three times.

In all honesty, this is, "hey AETC/CC, this item is no longer commercially avail or economically producible, we need to switch to this lower cost off the shelf item with the same appearance & still distinguishable form AF. check yes or no." Oh yeah.. and because following all regs (including the uniform man) is a factor in insurance coverage you help provide, our members are currently either unable to wear flight suits correctly. That means they are either risking insurance claims & possible legal action, or they are not wearing personal protective gear (flight suits), which we assess to be a safety hazard. Please help us address this matter with a reasonable solution.

Even if we were to be allowed the regular subdued AF rank on green (cheapest and easiest alternative) our command patch still identifies us as other than regular AF. Sheesh ...what's the big deal. The worst that could happen is someone giving us a salute!   Why must we complicate everything?

You know (My Mother's favorite admonishion) the green Nomex flight suit is not just an Air Force flight suit. Notice I didn't say uniform. Many organizations wear green Nomex flight suits because they can keep you from being BURNED ALIVE! The Air Force believes, incorrectly I contend, that the green Nomex flight suit is a uniform. But having said that, and acknowledging that I come from a multi-military family, we should, must, follow CAP regs when wearing the green Nomex flight suit. That's why I'm joining a lot of CAP folks and going to dark blue.

Quote from: Smokey on March 22, 2008, 09:56:12 PM
The worst that could happen is someone giving us a salute!   Why must we complicate everything?

I think that may be the real reason for the things we wear.  Heaven forbid if a Airman can't read our CAP Bookstore ID Card at the gate and mistakenly salutes us because he sees rank on our shoulder.  I have a feeling it is an AF issue, in that they are full of themselves.  But, hey thats just my take, cause we are still wearing what the AF actually wore when we were wearing it at the same time (follow.....white on ultramine blue was strictly an AF item that they allowed CAP to also wear at the same time they did).  Why the switchout did  not happen when the AF switched is a mind-bogler.  I would imagine it had to do with the CAP Bookstore owning too many blue nametape stocks and didn't want to loose money.  Everything in CAP is centered around $$ if you have not noticed yet.....

I also understand making us noticeably different than the real AF, but not at the expense of being behind the times.  We can still have a distinguishable uniform and insignia without leaving us in smurf colored paraphernalia...

Quote from: jaybird512 on March 23, 2008, 12:29:52 AM
I also understand making us noticeably different than the real AF, but not at the expense of being behind the times.  We can still have a distinguishable uniform and insignia without leaving us in smurf colored paraphernalia...

So True!

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 22, 2008, 10:56:32 PM
I have a feeling it is an AF issue, in that they are full of themselves. 

Bingo.

Who actually thinks that the crap they're going with for the ABU actually serves any purpose other than "Because we CAN!" ?

Amazing, how the Air Force talks Joint Ops, but when it comes to the walk, they don't have a whole lot to show when it comes to teamwork. At least for the higher levels anyway. When it comes to the trenches, things tend to be a little different.

Quote from: Avery on March 22, 2008, 10:19:40 PM
You know (My Mother's favorite admonishion) the green Nomex flight suit is not just an Air Force flight suit. Notice I didn't say uniform. Many organizations wear green Nomex flight suits because they can keep you from being BURNED ALIVE! The Air Force believes, incorrectly I contend, that the green Nomex flight suit is a uniform. But having said that, and acknowledging that I come from a multi-military family, we should, must, follow CAP regs when wearing the green Nomex flight suit. That's why I'm joining a lot of CAP folks and going to dark blue.

Perhaps that's why the flight suit is called the Flight Duty Uniform in AFI 36-2903. (The Air Force Uniform Regulation)
To the Air Force, and the military in general, flight suits are considered a duty uniform and are expected to worn correctly.
Just like any other uniform.

Quote from: Hawk200 on March 23, 2008, 08:17:11 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 22, 2008, 10:56:32 PM
I have a feeling it is an AF issue, in that they are full of themselves. 

Bingo.

Who actually thinks that the crap they're going with for the ABU actually serves any purpose other than "Because we CAN!" ?

Amazing, how the Air Force talks Joint Ops, but when it comes to the walk, they don't have a whole lot to show when it comes to teamwork. At least for the higher levels anyway. When it comes to the trenches, things tend to be a little different.

Fine... except that the USMC was the first branch to abandon  BDUs in favor of branch-specific uniforms. So specific, in fact, that their logo is imprinted into the fabric in many places. Even the navy (sans corpsmen) aren't allowed to wear it.

The US Army was the 2nd service to design their own uniform. They felt that they needed something different. Something that works for them and that show they're just as high speed as the Marines.

So there went the neighborhood since the BDU was mainly contracted by the US Army and USAF simply attached itself onto that contract. Without the primary client, the contract was allowed to expire. USAF couldn't keep the BDU and pay more for it (because of much smaller production numbers) when it could simply create a new uniform and since all the branches are doing their own...

I'm not sure if the Army would allow the ACU to be adopted by USAF anyway. Don't know if the idea was approached and don't know what the answer was or would have been if it was.

However... it isn't because USAF is "full of themselves" even though they have the right to be. They've earned the title of being the best in the world.

*This is not a comment on how useful ABUs are. Just on why they exist in the first place.

Quote from: afgeo4 on March 24, 2008, 05:52:34 AM
Fine... except that the USMC was the first branch to abandon  BDUs in favor of branch-specific uniforms.

The Marine Corps actually allowed Marines themselves (what a concept) to design a new uniform. Ended up being pretty practical because it was designed to use, not because they could.

Quote from: afgeo4 on March 24, 2008, 05:52:34 AM
I'm not sure if the Army would allow the ACU to be adopted by USAF anyway. Don't know if the idea was approached and don't know what the answer was or would have been if it was.

It was offered to the AF. They turned it down. They've said as such in the announcements about the ABU.

Quote from: afgeo4 on March 24, 2008, 05:52:34 AMHowever... it isn't because USAF is "full of themselves" even though they have the right to be. They've earned the title of being the best in the world.

I like the Air Force. Will go back if I get the chance and it suits my goals. But they have a history of many decisions made "because they can".

Very little of the development actually recieved legitimate input from the field. Have a few friends still in the Air Force that have been wearing them. The shirts are hot in the most temperate of climates, and all that was done on the configuration was to add a couple of pockets to the BDU design, and make the items available in specific sizes instead of generalized ones. The green boots are another example of "because we can". All in all, it's a fiasco to create such a logistical nightmare.

Does this really need to descend into an ACU vs ABU versus why is the mil wasting so much money on dif util uniforms discussion? I'm as guilty as anyone of holding & talking about those opinions. But is it really necessary again?

Plastic grade isn't commercially avail any longer, and is hard to work with, looks less than desirable. Versus full color on OD is commercially avail, still looks distinguishable from AF, gives similar look to previous, but is cheaper/easier to work with. Priority request needs to be made right away to AF. I know we've asked before, but this is related to supply chain issues now that are beyond our control (and I'm not above mentioning safety).

Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 06:49:06 PM
Plastic grade isn't commercially avail any longer, and is hard to work with, looks less than desirable.

Available, but not easily obtained.

Here's where I got mine from: HJ Saunders (http://www.saundersinsignia.com/products/productlist.aspx?categoryid=524&TitleSearch=flight)

Not cheap, but it's all I could find. It certainly wouldn't be an acceptable sole source. It's probably mostly New Old Stock.

Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 06:49:06 PM
Does this really need to descend into an ACU vs ABU versus why is the mil wasting so much money on dif util uniforms discussion? I'm as guilty as anyone of holding & talking about those opinions. But is it really necessary again?

Plastic grade isn't commercially avail any longer, and is hard to work with, looks less than desirable. Versus full color on OD is commercially avail, still looks distinguishable from AF, gives similar look to previous, but is cheaper/easier to work with. Priority request needs to be made right away to AF. I know we've asked before, but this is related to supply chain issues now that are beyond our control (and I'm not above mentioning safety).

Or, we can go to full color on ultramarine, which is even more readily available through our supply chain.

Full color on ultramarine on the flight suit?

Please, lets not wish that travesty on another uniform.

If we stick to ultramarine on the BDU why not use it on the flight suit? I agree that it isn't stylish, but it works.

Well,

Subdued AF grade 'works' as well.
So does pin on rank as well as 'Bright' rank with OD background, or no shoulder rank at all, and leave it on the leather name patch.

You agree that the ultramarine is not 'stylish', so why don't we choose something that looks good and is professional, instead of taking the easy and cheap way out?

Because it is easy and cheap and uniform across the uniforms.

Quote from: MIKE on March 24, 2008, 08:25:58 PM
Because it is easy and cheap and uniform across the uniforms.

Except for the blue flightsuit and utility uniform. They use full color on dark blue.

So why not carry that through to the green flight suit? Makes all flight suits use the same color.

Cost isn't a discussion. If we go to any embroidered version, it's ~75cents regardless of background color. Plus, being much easier to work with.

We're absolutely not going to subdued grade on OD background like the AF wears. I understand it is readily avail, that's not the issue there & we all know that.

Ultramarine background is a horrible idea. It looks like absolute crap for starters, which is generally agreed on by everyone. It's also not uniform across our uniform combinations. The dark blue flight suit, util, and BBDU all use dark blue grade. In fact the only thing that does use ultramarine grade is BDUs. And far that goes, we're doing everything in our power to change that by the time it gets to ABUs. I don't know what it'll end up, but it won't be idiotic or insulting.

color on OD background is commercially avail, and looks pretty much just like what we're replacing. Where's the issue in going to that?

Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 08:39:05 PM
Cost isn't a discussion. If we go to any embroidered version, it's ~75cents regardless of background color. Plus, being much easier to work with.....

color on OD background is commercially avail, and looks pretty much just like what we're replacing. Where's the issue in going to that?

Since price for color isn't an issue, why not just full color on sage? Would look good, be cheap, and achieve the same purpose as our plastic stuff. Just be easier to care for.

OD actually matches the flight suit pretty well, but whatever. If it's off the shelf, sewn on, under a buck, and looks decent (background pretty much like the uniform color). That's all I'm looking for. I don't think that's a huge deal to request.

Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 08:39:05 PM
The dark blue flight suit, util, and BBDU all use dark blue grade. In fact the only thing that does use ultramarine grade is BDUs.

The BBDU uses utramarine and not dark blue insignia. The dark blue is only for utility and new dark blue NOMEX flight suit.

Quote from: bte on March 24, 2008, 09:22:21 PM

Quote from: DNall on March 24, 2008, 08:39:05 PM
The dark blue flight suit, util, and BBDU all use dark blue grade. In fact the only thing that does use ultramarine grade is BDUs.

The BBDU uses utramarine and not dark blue insignia. The dark blue is only for utility and new dark blue NOMEX flight suit.

I've always wondered why they didn't just get rid of the ultramarine and use the dark blue on the BBDUs.  Seems logical to me (oops, just answered my own question).  :o

GC

My mistake. I've commonly seen BBDUs with dark blue grade. I thought that was one of the many things in transition.

My point though is ultramarine is not universal on our uniforms, so there's no merit in that as a justification.

Ultramarine is almost universally disliked (at the least) by membership. I understand where it came from, but as someone else said, there's a difference between positive useful traditions & being stuck in the past, left behind by the modern AF & world - be that ES trng, technology, or uniforms.

My understanding is that we're trying to move away from ultramarine as we move to ABUs, and that BBDU would go to dark blue at the same time if not before. Such a decision obviously being highly popular with membership. As well as, presenting a much more professional & aesthetic appearance. Why then would we even consider extending use of ultramarine grade to another item - especially in this case where the existing see-thru plastic gives a sage background already? Literally the closest thing we can do to what we have now is color grade on OD background. under the current emergency circumstances, why is that not being asked of AF for priority review?

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AM
My point though is ultramarine is not universal on our uniforms, so there's no merit in that as a justification.

I agree.  I think the use of dark blue rank on the blue flight suit is a foreshadowing of dark blue tapes on all applicable utility uniforms, but right now that's just a guess.    

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMUltramarine is almost universally disliked (at the least) by membership. I understand where it came from, but as someone else said, there's a difference between positive useful traditions & being stuck in the past, left behind by the modern AF & world - be that ES trng, technology, or uniforms.

Yes, and you can add me to the list of people who have always disliked the ultramarine blue tapes.  I was a cadet for 8 years, and hated having to wear such an embarassing color on my uniform.

I mean, CAP might as well be wearing brown doughboy hats and cloth putees; they are about as attractive as the ultramarine blue tapes, and are also ancient uniform items.

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMMy understanding is that we're trying to move away from ultramarine as we move to ABUs, and that BBDU would go to dark blue at the same time if not before. Such a decision obviously being highly popular with membership. As well as, presenting a much more professional & aesthetic appearance. Why then would we even consider extending use of ultramarine grade to another item - especially in this case where the existing see-thru plastic gives a sage background already?

Yes, and I too am in favor of having every utility uniform go to dark blue tapes. 

But if CAP wants to go to ultramarine blue rank on the AF flight suit before then, that wouldn't be that bad of a decision; cloth is much, much easier to sew on than plastic will ever be.

Also, it wouldn't be much different than what the military sometimes does.  Remember the ICB?  There was no reason at all to come out with a new issue black leather combat boot before going to a new uniform that requires a different style issue boot made out suede, with a totally different color.
     

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 08:58:44 AMLiterally the closest thing we can do to what we have now is color grade on OD background. under the current emergency circumstances, why is that not being asked of AF for priority review?

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.

Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:27:32 PM

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.

How do you know this?

There was a time not too long ago when the AF also wore plastic encased rank *concurrently* with CAP ::GASP::   :o

I do not see any problem whatsoever going with sage background and bright rank.

How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Really?  Which ones?

Quote from: cnitas on March 25, 2008, 06:01:11 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Really?  Which ones?

You won't find them; it is the actions of many members that have made rank in CAP meaningless. 

Remember the old saying, actions speak louder than words?  It's true!

Just like a medal that's handed out like candy, the prestige of the rank is tarnished and the feeling of satisfaction that comes with achieving it is diminished.   

Quote from: cnitas on March 25, 2008, 03:23:54 PM

Quote from: CCSE on March 25, 2008, 02:27:32 PM

Because they will never approve it; it looks too much like the AF rank insignia.

As much as you and I would like to see full color on OD rank insignia for the AF flight suit, dark blue is much more distinctive and is more likely to be approved.

How do you know this?

There was a time not too long ago when the AF also wore plastic encased rank *concurrently* with CAP ::GASP::   :o

I do not see any problem whatsoever going with sage background and bright rank.

I would agree with that statement. AF grade on flight suits is subdued. Full-color is highly distinguishable from that. It has no more or less appearance of being a real mil officer than see thru plastic, and in fact appears as close to what we have as is reasonably possible.

I would be asking the AF right now for an emergency approval of off-the-shelf color on OD sew on for flight suits, citing safety & insurance concerns of keeping as many aircrew in PPE as possible. I'd be willing to accept an interm authorization (6-12mos) until supply of plastic encased can be sufficiently restored at a reasonable cost, or a perm decision can be made on keeping sewn on grade.

If & only if they refuse that, then I'd talk about dark blue as a second option & ultrmarine as a last option. Personally, I'd call it a toss up of keeping black background versus restored plastic encased, just from a aesthetic point of view. Clearly sewn on is much more user friendly & inexpensive.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Respectfully sir, I understand you dislike CAP's grade system. I understand that it doesn't have anything approaching UCMJ authority & that grade doesn't necessarily track with position in the way that it normally (but not always) does in the military. I'd whole-heartedly agree that we need to reform our grade and assignment system in a reasonable way that increases quality, credibility, & operational effectiveness across-the board. However, that's not the matter being discussed.

Grade does exist in CAP, and as long as that's the case it must be appropriately indicated on uniforms following the example set for us by our proponent (the AF).

Quote from: DNall on March 25, 2008, 06:23:51 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
How about NO RANK.  It is already on your namebadge.  Lets get rid of rank altogether!  It really means nothing, and CAP NHQ publishes pamphlets that say exactly that.....

Respectfully sir, I understand you dislike CAP's grade system. I understand that it doesn't have anything approaching UCMJ authority & that grade doesn't necessarily track with position in the way that it normally (but not always) does in the military. I'd whole-heartedly agree that we need to reform our grade and assignment system in a reasonable way that increases quality, credibility, & operational effectiveness across-the board. However, that's not the matter being discussed.

Grade does exist in CAP, and as long as that's the case it must be appropriately indicated on uniforms following the example set for us by our proponent (the AF).

D....I was a huge proponenet of keeping rank and grade in CAP, but I find myself to just get frustrated at times.  There are so many that have for years said "just get rid of it", or do like the "Coast Guard AUX does", so I have decided to just follow suit.  Until a change comes that makes the rank insignia representative of something more than it currently is, all it does it make the individual feel better about themselves.  (I for one, want people to feel good about themselves, but historically in CAP, rank and grade and who reports to who was much clearer than it currently is, and I would like to see the organization move back into that system)

I think we are forgetting an important fact...

The value of CAP rank is determined by the actions of the membership. 

If commanders make it easy to promote people up to Lt Col, provide advanced rank to folks who don't deserve it, and give officers tasks not equal to their level of responsibility, they are doing 3 things:

1) They are diminishing the value of rank for everyone, including themselves

2) They are cheating people out of the experience they are supposed to be getting

3) They are reducing the productivity of their chain of command

Let's remember this as we discuss this issue.

All thia about the value of rank/grade in CAP is interesting, but let's get back to the topic at hand - the plastic encased grade insignia.

As has been mentioned, Vanguard is having difficulty finding a reliable, quality source for this insignia. Within two months, they will make a determination as whether they will carry plastic encased grade insignia. (as stated at the NB meeting) If they do not, CAP will present an emergency request to the AF to authorize cloth grade insignia on the green flight suit and jacket (again, stated at the NB meeting). The options are:
1. Subdued on sage/olive fabric - not likely to get approved, looks too much like the AF.
2. Full color on sage/olive fabric - more possible than 1, but still unlikely.
3. Full color on dark blue - IMHO, most likely to get approved. Maintains continuity with the blue flight suit and utility uniforms, which are currently authorized this insignia.
4. Full color on ultramarine blue - Very likely to get approved, neck-and-neck with 3. UGLY!
5. No grade insignia - Would cause great complaining from the rank and file. Due to past history of flight suits without grade, not as likely as 3 or 4, but more the 1.

IMHO, presenting 1 or 2 may result in 4 being approved, given the current feelings on both sides. Presenting 3 is the best option.

Again, just my opinion.

* Flightsuits (and bdu's) without grade used be able to be worn by all members without regard to h/w standards. Many still remember this - on both sides. Due to many members ignoring the rules, the utility uniform and bbdu were implemented.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 25, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
D....I was a huge proponenet of keeping rank and grade in CAP, but I find myself to just get frustrated at times.  There are so many that have for years said "just get rid of it", or do like the "Coast Guard AUX does", so I have decided to just follow suit.  Until a change comes that makes the rank insignia representative of something more than it currently is, all it does it make the individual feel better about themselves.  (I for one, want people to feel good about themselves, but historically in CAP, rank and grade and who reports to who was much clearer than it currently is, and I would like to see the organization move back into that system)

See I agree with most of that. It's just not the topic under discussion.

Quick off topic, then we'll move on:
I also feel very frustrated with it at times. However, I disagree with the "just get rid of it" bit. It is indicative of some minimal things, which I know has limited but some usefulness.

I don't like the CG-Aux system at all. No offense to them, but it's a democratic process in a para-military organization. Impose that on our politically charged system & you have a nightmare that doesn't remotely reward merit or cause the cream to rise to the top.

I do favor a much reformed PD/adult program that does a much better job of developing leaders from within rather than relying on skills people bring from outside. And I favor using the AF educational system as a model, while utilizing elements from ARNG OCS & ACA in terms of format, with the addition of technology for remote delivery. I also favor promoting to slots in a limited way & holding field grade above the Sq level. There's been several several threads on the topic, and of course many opinions.

Until some kind of major meaningful reform can occur, we're stuck with what we got. What that happens to be is a volunteer organization that rewards members with fairly meaningless bling (grade, ribbons, positions, etc). That self-importance & pride are the paycheck for what CAP does. The AF knows that. They look at our wear of the AF uniform in the same way. I'd love to make it all more meaningful & practical, but I'm not in a position personally to make that happen. I will let you know though when I get elected president.

As I said though, as long as CAP has grade, it must be indicated on uniforms in an appropriate - meaning taken from the example set for us by the AF.  /end off topic, back to your regularly shceduled programing.

Quote from: arajca on March 25, 2008, 07:04:13 PM
As has been mentioned, Vanguard is having difficulty finding a reliable, quality source for this insignia. Within two months, they will make a determination as whether they will carry plastic encased grade insignia. (as stated at the NB meeting) If they do not, CAP will present an emergency request to the AF to authorize cloth grade insignia on the green flight suit and jacket (again, stated at the NB meeting).

Thank you for that clarification.  8)
I would not even propose #1 on that list. I would also not forward 3-5 initially, only IF option 2 were disapproved, and as I said, a req for temp authorization until a more formal process can occur makes that a much stronger case. Then you're arguing down the road to keep what you got, but willing to talk about options 3-4 if that's not appropriate. And, I wouldn't heistate to say we're working toward dropping ultramarine completely in the longer term.

^ It is just amazing that Vanguard can get this issue presented to the AF, but CAP members couldn't for the past 10 years.  Wow.....we all now know who is running CAP, and it starts with a "V" and ends with an "anguard"

It would be economical on everyones part to use the subdued insignia the AF currently uses.  More green bags than blue out there folks, and the ultramarine blue tape is a specialty item and only makes the supplier more money.  BUT, I understand that will never happen, and I am sure no matter what we discuss here the decisions were already made 4 months ago to go with full color on ultramarine blue by both VANGUARD and AF.   

Vanguard isn't getting it put to AF, CAP NHQ is. The issue of sewn on grade has been proposed multiple times to AF for approval over the past 10 years - at least 2-3 times.

Sewed on subdued is absolutely not happening, and even proposing it makes all options less likely to be approved.

Ultramarine is a specialty color, versus OD, but the shear nature of the item keeps it inexpensive. It's more that we're trying to move away from the color longer-term & putting it on an additional uniform is a step backward that makes that process harder.

So as a compromise, do we all agree that full color on navy blue background is the best way to go (aesthetically and financially)?

That would also be another step to changing ALL insignia to that color scheme which would in turn make the insignia easier to procure and less expensive to the membership. Also makes it easier for members to understand which insignia to wear and creates less "out of uniform" issues.

So... how do we make this happen? Can we petition/lobby Vanguard or NHQ?

Quote from: afgeo4 on March 26, 2008, 03:03:41 AM
So as a compromise, do we all agree that full color on navy blue background is the best way to go (aesthetically and financially)?

Now that I think about it, I have to say "Why not?". It would be far easier, same thing across the board, no confusion. It would also be distinctive. Might look a little funny at first, but we would all get used to it. And you can't get real confused about what goes on which uniform when there is only one thing to choose from.

Now, if we could ditch everything but navy blue for every uniform, we'd be good.

Why not? 
Because blue on a sage green flight bag looks strange, out of place, and is not in line with our parent service.

Has anyone setup a test to see what you are arguing for? 

Sorry, but I'm not in favor of blue backgrounds on green uniforms.

Plastic encased is expensive & hard to work with, but it looks okay, if outdated quite a bit. Color on OD/sage would present the same basic appearance with an updated cleaner look, and is aesthetically pleasing. That has to be the first choice. Subdued shouldn't even be considered. Just mentioning that to AF terms this whole request in the absolute wrong way.

If they deny that then sure we can talk about dark blue before we get to the bottom of the barrel ultramarine. But I wouldn't go in swinging with those.

If you could get ALL uniform combinations in one background color, that'd be easier for Vanguard & brand new members to avoid screwing up, but it still wouldn't look good. Plus, then you're talking about everyone changing BDUs completely for a very small gain, and then maybe changing again when you go to ABUs, or worse setting yourself up for dark blue on ABUs. That's not good options.

No, I think the best way to go with this is an emergency interim (12mo) authorization for off-the-shelf color on OD background until either another supplier cna be found to provide plastic encased at reasonable price and adequate supply chain, or AF can determine if they want to stick with the sewn on. Getting something like that adopted should not be an issue. Remember, you don't have to win the war all at once, you take a little ground & hold it, then you take a little more later on.

This is a little off topic, but MikeyLikey's favorite insignia supplier; the one that starts with a V and ends with anguard has personally told me on several occasions that they are trying to push CAP away from Ultramarine blue because it is getting difficult for them to get the material. Now I suspect they have enough material to last a couple more years or so but it is running out rather quickly.

  I suspect within the next five years we will no longer have ultramarine blue tapes or insignias.  If CAP gets their act together and raises the bar substantially just maybe AF will see to move CAP a bit closer to them in terms of uniform appearance. CAP has to do the major changing towards AF standards, AF will not move away from their position.

If you take a blue BDU, and put the UM blue tapes on it, the brand-new BBDU will look "Salty" because the UM tapes appear to have faded.  Even if they are new, since they are a lighter shade of blue, your NEW uniform looks like it is due for replacement.

I can live with dark blue rank on the green bag.  I could live better with full color on a sage green background, but some people think the extra 70 cents would be too costly.

But get rid of the plastic rank and ...

GET RID OF THE ULTRAMARINE BLUE!

Dark blue tapes on the BBDU, BDU and only if necessary, the green bag.

Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around. 

If what you suggest were to happen, those with thyroid problems, pregnancy, bulimia, and other medical issues resulting in weight gain would have a fit and some may even sue on the basis of discrimination.  I can just see it now... "My commander is making me wear a uniform with nametapes that look faded and dramatically different than those worn by folks who don't have medical problems, and that is demeaning."

I'm not by any means politically-correct, but there needs to be standardization of all CAP uniform items so no one is left out.  One team, one look!  

First of all you can not sue for discrimination based on your OPINION that you think your fat people uniforms are not as nice looking as the in shape people's uniform is. That is not discrimination. that is a personal opinion.

  Second, the idea of one set of tapes, insignia, etc for ALL uniforms so no one feels left out is ridicules .  If that was to happen we would look just as bad as we do now, our tapes/insignias should be matched as closely as the AF will allow with the fabric of what we are wearing. EG: sage rank (full color) on the AF flight suit, blue rank on the blue flight suit. blue tapes on the BBDU and hopefully something close to sage on the ABU/BDU. Lets stop trying to look like clowns who have no idea of color matching. it makes us look like a bunch of amateurs.

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PM
First of all you can not sue for discrimination based on your OPINION that you think your fat people uniforms are not as nice looking as the in shape people's uniform is. That is not discrimination. that is a personal opinion.

No.  I'm talking about fat people suing because they are required to wear tapes that look faded compared to the ones worn by those who are in shape and wear AF uniforms.   

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PMSecond, the idea of one set of tapes, insignia, etc for ALL uniforms so no one feels left out is ridicules.

Just so you know, I was not referring to blues or flight suit... just BDU's.   

Quote from: DrJbdm on March 26, 2008, 11:19:28 PM... our tapes/insignias should be matched as closely as the AF will allow with the fabric of what we are wearing. EG: sage rank (full color) on the AF flight suit, blue rank on the blue flight suit. blue tapes on the BBDU and hopefully something close to sage on the ABU/BDU. Lets stop trying to look like clowns who have no idea of color matching. it makes us look like a bunch of amateurs.

I agree, and all I'm saying is that if blue is used for both the ABU and BBDU, it should be the same shade for both uniforms. 

QuoteNo.  I'm talking about fat people suing because they are required to wear tapes that look faded compared to the ones worn by those who are in shape and wear AF uniforms.   

 
    Fat people have no basis for a law suit, it's not discrimination that the fat clothes have name tapes that LOOK faded based on the material. It's a matter of personal opinion.

   Personally I think CAP NEEDS to have a strict weight limit for certain members for safety reasons...I'm talking about flight crew. Our useful load in our aircraft is so small now that we simply can not even have two fat pilots aboard; let alone add a scanner to the mix.

I think flight crew members should have to maintain AF weight standards and be no heavier then about 215 pounds. Otherwise if we keep getting fatter pretty soon our flight crew will only be able to consist of one person.....the pilot! Either that or CAP will have start getting Cessna Caravans so we can keep a decent useful load.

  Don't get upset because I called the BBDU "fat clothes" I know that there are many others who CHOOSE to wear them. BUT they where conceived because of two different types of members who by AF policy can not wear the AF uniform....the fatties and the fuzzies. I'm not picking on the fat people here, I'm simply stating you can't realistically sue because you don't like how the tapes look. the fatties might as well sue the Air Force or CAP for discrimination because they are barred from wearing the AF uniform....but that would be a monumentally bad idea!!

Quote from: CCSE on March 26, 2008, 10:27:34 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around.

Don't propose it the other way around is the point I think he was making. IE - don't put blue tapes/grade/etc on green uniforms or vice versa. Match the background to the uniform, cause that's what looks right. One set for everything becomes a debate of who gets made to look like a clown so the other side can look right. There's no advantage to that. It's not cheaper to produce everything (embroidered items) in one color than two common colors (not ultramarine). It's just as easy to order the right stuff by matching colors. It only gets complicated when we have all dif insignia & it's not color coded to the uniform it belongs with.

And by the way, I dare someone to sue me for discrimination on the basis of them being fat & not liking uniform decisions. Here in a para-military organization wearing uniforms authorized by the real military, with real grade, with legal protection against other people imitating us, operating hundreds of millions of dollars in govt purchased resources, charged with highly intensive SaR/DR/HLS missions, etc. The jury is going to be looking at the whiny civilian over there asking if that's what they have to depend on protecting them in time of need, and if they need to hold it against a leader for trying to enforce or raise standards on such a person. Yeah, bring that suit on.

National, I'm sure does it best with regulation changes. However like anything else they know something we don't. 39-1 leaves gaps a mile wide in specification on any item. Now with that having been said under these circumstances, you could probable put anything on your shoulders and no one could say anything.

uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

Quote from: DNall on March 27, 2008, 08:37:49 AM

Quote from: CCSE on March 26, 2008, 10:27:34 PM

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 26, 2008, 10:09:43 PM
Why make one set of people (BBDU) look better than everyone else?  The vast majority do not wear Blue uniforms.  Make the uniforms that are predominantly worn look good, let the uniforms that are seldom worn look like crap instead!

Wait, so it's okay for the uniform that is most commonly worn to look good, but those who cannot wear it should be stuck with a crappy alternative?  That would be just as unfair as if it were the other way around.

Don't propose it the other way around is the point I think he was making. IE - don't put blue tapes/grade/etc on green uniforms or vice versa. Match the background to the uniform, cause that's what looks right. One set for everything becomes a debate of who gets made to look like a clown so the other side can look right. There's no advantage to that. It's not cheaper to produce everything (embroidered items) in one color than two common colors (not ultramarine). It's just as easy to order the right stuff by matching colors. It only gets complicated when we have all dif insignia & it's not color coded to the uniform it belongs with.

And by the way, I dare someone to sue me for discrimination on the basis of them being fat & not liking uniform decisions. Here in a para-military organization wearing uniforms authorized by the real military, with real grade, with legal protection against other people imitating us, operating hundreds of millions of dollars in govt purchased resources, charged with highly intensive SaR/DR/HLS missions, etc. The jury is going to be looking at the whiny civilian over there asking if that's what they have to depend on protecting them in time of need, and if they need to hold it against a leader for trying to enforce or raise standards on such a person. Yeah, bring that suit on.

The background will be blue when we switch to ABUs. I think we should wait to switch until that change is made.

Quote from: DNall on April 17, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

Regs nonwithstanding, you just can't find plastic-encased rank anywhere.

Even my "nameless" flightsuit nametag supplier no longer carries them, as they are items that have gone out of use in the military decades ago.

NB/NEC and CAP-USAF need to make a decision on this sooner than later.

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 04:57:42 PM

Quote from: DNall on April 17, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
uhh.... I'm pretty sure it spells out plastic encased grade for green flt suits. Could you put something on there & not be disciplined for it in CAP? Of course, but there's a difference between right & wrong. Doing wrong cause you can get away with it or you think it looks cool or whatever makes you a bad person & undeserving of being in CAP.

Regs nonwithstanding, you just can't find plastic-encased rank anywhere.

Even my "nameless" flightsuit nametag supplier no longer carries them, as they are items that have gone out of use in the military decades ago.

NB/NEC and CAP-USAF need to make a decision on this sooner than later.

I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

Quote from: afgeo4 on April 22, 2008, 04:34:05 PM
The background will be blue when we switch to ABUs. I think we should wait to switch until that change is made.

The background color for tapes grade will have to be changed with the move to ABUs, not after we're in them. Hopefully that'll be closer to matching the background - therefore less idiotic looking. BBDUs just need to go to all dark blue cause that's what looks right there. That doesn't mean it looks good on anything else.

Quote from: DNall on April 22, 2008, 05:13:26 PM
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.

Interim solution: source them elsewhere.


http://www.military-patches.com/airforce/officerrankinsignia.html
Sells plastic-encased USAF rank insignia for between $16 - $40/pair

or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM
http://www.military-patches.com/airforce/officerrankinsignia.html
Sells plastic-encased USAF rank insignia for between $16 - $40/pair

A viable alternative, but at $16+, yeouch!! :o

I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.

Quote from: Al Sayre on April 22, 2008, 05:59:22 PM
I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.

As an avid 'do it yourself-er,' I'd be interested in how they did it (and made it look decent.)

I've seen people do horrid things with plastic-encased rank, i.e., hand sew them, etc.  I know someone who tried what you just described with sticky-back "combat-acetate" (do they still make that?) and after a while, it started to cloud inside, and looked bad.

The astronomically priced rank sold on the link above appears to be just what you described.

Nonetheless, we need an economical long-term fix.....

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 05:40:43 PM

Quote from: DNall on April 22, 2008, 05:13:26 PM
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.

Good point! So if someone gets promoted do they continue to wear their old rank (thus being out of uniform), go without rank (thus being out of uniform), or go without rank (thus being out of uniform).

Can you see the theme here.....right NOW Officers are being put in an untenable position, wear the green flight suit out of regulation, or do not wear it, both sucky choices.

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM
or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank.  ;)

If I remember right: The plastic encased ranks came from Air Force Pilots catching particularly their Captain's bars on every little strap and do-hicky and crunching the bars or sheding the bars making for FOD in the plane or on the airfield. The plastic kept the corners of the rank from catching, kept them clean, and kept the pieces together if a gut bust 9 G turn while hanging in the straps bent your rank a little.

So since the Air Force had their reasons for plastic encasment... I'd go with that. That said, the Army has gone to a uniform that has everything from reverse field flag, to rank insignias, to ID badges, and Group patches floating on a carpet of velcro. I suppose that could work on the flight suit too. The Army wants a ready to strip off everything at a moments notice battle uniform... which comes in handy mostly on wash day and so your badges and patches don't fade out. But I suppose theres a limited to how many things the AF wants to hang on a flight suit.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO Heritage Project Officer

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 06:14:14 PM

Quote from: Al Sayre on April 22, 2008, 05:59:22 PM
I know of at least one inventive person who just went and bought metal rank, clipped off the pins, laminated it and sewed it to his flight suit...  It looks a little bigger than the ones from the factory, but if you don't know what you are looking for it's very hard to tell.

As an avid 'do it yourself-er,' I'd be interested in how they did it (and made it look decent.)

snip

I think he used one of those hot vacuum laminators like they used to use at the DL office.

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 07:31:50 PM

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM
or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank.  ;)

I have one set of unused Lt Col's If you want them Email me at tkelley004@yahoo.com

Quote from: tkelley004 on April 22, 2008, 09:42:50 PM

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 07:31:50 PM

Quote from: Pylon on April 22, 2008, 05:49:32 PM
or try eBay or the requesting on the CAPTalk Marketplace

Problem is, with relatively few exceptions, Lt. Col's usually tend to hang onto their rank.  ;)

I have one set of unused Lt Col's If you want them Email me at tkelley004@yahoo.com

I'll email or PM you tonight.

Gee what were the chances?

Quote from: Smithsonia on April 22, 2008, 08:54:21 PM
If I remember right: The plastic encased ranks came from Air Force Pilots catching particularly their Captain's bars on every little strap and do-hicky and crunching the bars or sheding the bars making for FOD in the plane or on the airfield. The plastic kept the corners of the rank from catching, kept them clean, and kept the pieces together if a gut bust 9 G turn while hanging in the straps bent your rank a little.

So since the Air Force had their reasons for plastic encasment... I'd go with that. That said, the Army has gone to a uniform that has everything from reverse field flag, to rank insignias, to ID badges, and Group patches floating on a carpet of velcro. I suppose that could work on the flight suit too. The Army wants a ready to strip off everything at a moments notice battle uniform... which comes in handy mostly on wash day and so your badges and patches don't fade out. But I suppose theres a limited to how many things the AF wants to hang on a flight suit.
With regards;
1Lt. Ed OBrien
CO Heritage Project Officer

IIRC the rank insignia (not "ranks") before the plastic encased used by the AF were leather and sewn on the sholders.  (My dad was on a B-52 combat crew in the late 50s and that's what what on his flight suit) I don't think that there was ever a time that USAF wore metal insignia on their flight suits (not that I can remember and my military memory goes back to when I was a kid in the late 50s).  I first saw the plastic encased bars, leaves, etc in the mid 60s on an ADC pilot in an orange flight suit.  At the same time, USAF aircrews in Southeast Asia were wearing black-on-green subdued rank insignia.  They hadn't gone over to the brown-for-gold system yet, so Lt Cols had a black leaf w/a thin border of silver around the leaf's outline.  But of course, SEA was a different bear all together.

GC

IIRC the rank insignia (not "ranks") before the plastic encased used by the AF were leather and sewn on the sholders.  (My dad was on a B-52 combat crew in the late 50s and that's what what on his flight suit) I don't think that there was ever a time that USAF wore metal insignia on their flight suits (not that I can remember and my military memory goes back to when I was a kid in the late 50s).


Lt. Col Pierce;
I was speaking of the era that transistioned the prop to jet age (late 40s to Korean War). At one time flightsuits were mostly just coveralls. Simple protection from grease and oil with map pockets and pockets that were open to your own pants underneath. Not much heraldry on the flighsuit because Flightcrews wore their regular uniform (suntans, pinks, greens, etc,) underneath These crews had bars, chickens, leaves, on their shirt collars underneath their flightsuit, mostly in winter, but all metal all the time. When flightsuits came in as a complete, ready to go, all purpose flight uniform... and I do realize that many crews wore flightsuits as all purpose outer gear during WW2 particularly in summer... but let me continue to address this particular time -- In the transisitonal era just after the US Army Air Corps became the US Air Force (see pics of Berlin Air Lift for reference) -- There was all manner of bits and pieces that needed sorting out as FOD producers, which is a problem with jets, not props so much, G suits, tight strap setups, and survival suits changed the layering, with the basic uniform gone, the flightsuit underneath or "base garment", the G-Suit next etc., see photos of Chuck Yeager at the time of his "breaking the sound barrier" as a reference -- you'll see many variations and all at the same time regarding the flight uniform. When a crewman wore his uniform underneath he had his metal on the collar... when he wore his flightsuit as the basic flight garment... he just transfered everything over to the flightsuits collar (see a-4 and AN-S-31 Flightsuits for reference -- all had regular collars for rank) and metal wings to the breast, etc.. That was all settled when the B15"C" flightwear set up became the only approved and consistantly used uniform for flight... items included were underwear, jackets (several kinds depending on degree of cold L2C flight jacket included), flightsuit, gloves, hard-helmet, boots, ballcap, and heraldry were all standardized. Sew-ons were the only accepted heraldry for flight. Back then the B15"C" set up started in 1950 and out in 1957 with the introduction of the M jackets. These were all dark blue and had nothing but patches -- SEE B-36 to B-47 Strategic Air Command Crew Pics for reference.

Sew-ons became the standard after about 1950. I don't remember seeing the plastic encased "offenders" until the mid 70s or early eighties. BUT That era is not my area of expertise. We didn't have them during the Vietnam Era, that I'm aware of, although I'm sure there were exceptions. That's pretty much the sequence deduced from a bunch of photos that I've been looking over. I'm going to the Air Force Academy in June for several weeks of research. I think I'll put a bit of this topic on my list for reference... It's an interesting topic that would best be served if we could dig up Gen. Curtis Lemay and just ask him.
With regards;
1Lt. ED OBRIEN
CO. Heritage Project Officer

Quote from: O-Rex on April 22, 2008, 05:40:43 PM

Quote from: DNall on April 22, 2008, 05:13:26 PM
I agree, but you can't just put something else on there cause you feel like it. What would happen to uniforms if people started taking that kind of attitude?

I wholeheartedly agree: but with no plastic encased rank available anywhere, you're out of uniform either way.

I'm not advocating that members "wing it" as they see fit,  just that this is a more immediate uniform-related issue to address than the Blue Berets and Ranger regalia currently on the NEC agenda.

BDU/ABU nametapes are a little further out on the horizon, and there's still a few years to beat that horse to death.

CAP has alot of folks in flightsuits, and as members become aircrew, and current aircrew are promoted, we need to give them something to wear from what's currently available.

Sure, I agree with that. Members need to not wear flt suits if they can't get the right items. And, I am a safety advocate of wearing them on missions. Which is another reason I think this is an immediate need.

I did advocate full color on OD background which is avail from several sources off the shelf. Plus has the advantage of being cheaper, easier, and slightly better looking with the same overall appearance as we currently have.

BDUs are not going to change. They're basically frozen in place pending ABUs. We're looking for new background color on ABUs. It'll be something matching the material background, and seeking to minimize the stuff on there in accordance with the example the AF sets for us.

As always, NB/NEC seem to be out of touch with the issues that really need to be addressed. They seem to be obsessed with placating the vocal bling-hounds who tend to be pretty much idiots that make us all look bad in both appearance and attitude. If it were up to me, I'd slap the crap out of PAWG, shut down HMRS for a year, absolutely bar all their bling crap, then allow it to come back as a national activity in conjunction with NESA & pressing forward with meaningful training toward FEMA typing/credentialing standards, etc. I got no problem with a quality school emerging from that process that produces elite leaders & SaR operators, but it'll be humble, inside the box, and responsive/respectful to the chain of command. A simple tab is all real Army ranger school gets, worn over their unit patch. Why is that not enough for these folks.

Blue beret is silly. Sorry to the advocates. It's a big airshow where you turn off a bunch of ELTs. Big deal. That doesn't deserve a beret. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a nat cadet special activity, it should, but it doesn't need any special recognition like a silly hat.

Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 04:46:11 PM
......then allow it to come back as a national activity in conjunction with NESA & pressing forward with meaningful training toward FEMA typing/credentialing standards, etc......

Interesting point there. How many of our "hooah, hooah" ES schools include ICS in the curriculum? It needs to be included. Now is the best time to jump in and include that stuff. Gonna need it in the future.

If I recall what I was told from a student last year, NESA had a strong ICS compoenent.  Probably never going to have time to do the 300 or 400 courses during NESA though. 

NESA covers all the IC100-800 stuff in their mission staff course or whatever it's called. That's still the equiv of GES though. It's not qualifications for GT or anything else. The point I drive on that issue is that internal training standards will no longer be acceptable for any agency, including CAP. Rather we'll have to meet a single unified standard. Granted, the details are still in flux a bit, but understand they're writing something for firefigters & emts to quickly upgrade to. That's a really long way from where CAP is. We need to get closer to that ballpark so we're ready when that comes about.

Now, that's me talking about what CAP GT needs to do nationwide. If you wanna have some kind of elite school, you need to be way over the top of that. That's not happening right now. They're just doing some scatter shot silliness that doesn't accomplish anything.

Topic.

Not to go on too much about the subject but... the orginal reason all metal was first removed from the flightsuit collar or blouse... then placed on patches at the sleeves... then (I'm assuming here but am rather confident in this assumption) moved to the shoulder's and encased in plastic... was because in bailing out of a high speed jet v a much lower speed prop... the wind whip of the collar (and in this I mean just fabric with nothing else attached) cut exiting pilots and caused throat and neck damage. Even though I don't have a story of the next assumption... I'll bet you somebody somewhere got their throat cut deeply while their Captain's bars were whipping them on bail out.

As I said, I've probably gone on too much about the topic. BUT, Historians have a lot of otherwise useless information that can rarely be worked into dignified conversation. So we tend to splurge and purge.

With regards;
1Lt. Ed O'Brien
CO WG Heritage Project Officer
Black Sheep Sqn. Historian, Denver

^maybe, but I think it was more related to FOD in the jet age, or frankly just going to a coverall which by design doesn't have a crisp collar.