Another question

[Tactics]

What's the first sergeant diamond for? Not the ones in the MSgt, SMSgt, Or CMSgt, I mean the one that's juts plain. I've seen this allot and asked allot of people and now I turn to CapTalk.

[JayT]

Until a few years ago, there was no grade suggestion for the First Sergeant position. Thats what those diamonds were for.

[coudano]

It was a little while ago yet, but there didn't used to be C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt ranks at all,
and C/MSgt was all six stripes down (no rocker above)

So the diamond was pinned separately, above the shield, for first sergeants bitd.

[Color Guard Rifleman]

It was a little while ago yet, but there didn't use to be C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt ranks at all,
and C/MSgt was all six stripes down (no rocker above)

So the diamond was pinned separately, above the shield, for first sergeants bit.

Was it pinned on the epaulets when wearing the blues uniform?

[Adam B]

It went right above the insignia for SSgt, TSgt and old MSgt.
Imagine if you had a modern FirstSgt insignia with the diamond in the middle, then just removed the to top stripes.

I don't think cadet NCOS ever wore their insignia on their epaulets in blues, at least not in the past two decades.

[Adam B]

This imagine from Google can give you something of an idea:

[NIN]

Some place in my picture stash, I have a photo from a unit's recruiting open house where another cadet from another squadron visited, and he was that unit's "First Senior Airman".

I would not have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes. And I took a picture just so people would believe me. I will find it

[TheSkyHornet]

Some place in my picture stash, I have a photo from a unit's recruiting open house where another cadet from another squadron visited, and he was that unit's "First Senior Airman".

I would not have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes. And I took a picture just so people would believe me. I will find it

I recall seeing a cadet from a unit once at an activity that was also a C/SrA appointed First Sergeant with the lozenge. That comes from a culture of "But we need a First Sergeant...and he's worked so hard..."

[Eclipse]

I know of units that have had C/SrA's as C/CC's, because "they are the oldest".
Probably some with C/Amn at some point.

These situations usually end as well as you'd expect.

[NIN]

Found it!!

[Eclipse]

OK, first - WOW.

I couldn't find a decent photo, but I'm guessing NIN has some of these as well.

BITD Cadet NCO grade insignia were USAF grade pins with the CAP prop and shield glued on top of the
USAF star, so an etsy kit of the diamond for first shirt isn't all that unusual in that paradigm.

[PHall]

Found it!!

First Airman?   Cool!

[abdsp51]

Found it!!

First Airman?   Cool!

Not even worn right.  I'd put it up there with the C/CMSgt wearing a star and campaign hat...

[Adam B]

Goodness, the diamond isn't even right.

[MSG Mac]

Years ago (up to at least the 70's or 80's)Air Force First Sergeant was a career field, not a position and you could've appointed as early as SSgt.

[abdsp51]

Years ago (up to at least the 70's or 80's)Air Force First Sergeant was a career field, not a position and you could've appointed as early as SSgt.

Has been for forever and a day I have never seen an AF SSgt as a First Sergeant.  Everyone I have seen has been a MSgt or above..

[jhighman]

WIWAC in a composite squadron in 1990, we had a cadet airman first class rocking the diamond. I'm not really sure why, but we did.  These were the days when cadet master sergeant was the highest cadet NCO grade so perhaps a minimum wasn't as emphasized. He was 14 or 15 if I recall and was a hard charger who took the job seriously but was basically made into an administrative assistant for the cadet commander.

Odd times.

[Jester]

Enlisted history hijack:

Did the SNCO as first sergeant thing come as a result of the E8 and E9 grades being established?

[SarDragon]

Enlisted history hijack:

Did the SNCO as first sergeant thing come as a result of the E8 and E9 grades being established?

Not sure, but there were First Sergeants in the cadet ranks prior to the introduction of C/SMgt and C/CMsgt.

[abdsp51]

Enlisted history hijack:

Did the SNCO as first sergeant thing come as a result of the E8 and E9 grades being established?

The distinct diamond insignia was established in thr 50's and at the time only a MSgt could be 1st Sgt.  The first SMSgt 1st Sgt was promoted in 1958.

[THRAWN]

Want that still Cadet Sergeant at the time? Didnt the change to Senior Airman happen sometime around the addition to the super NCO grades and the switch to the 3 button blues?

Found it!!

[NIN]

that photo was taken in, uh, 2015 or 2016.

Definite post "super-grades"

[Jester]

We're mixing things up. I was talking about the actual AF "supergrades" of SMSgt and CMSgt which were established when the E8 and E9 pay grades materialized.

[PHall]

We're mixing things up. I was talking about the actual AF "supergrades" of SMSgt and CMSgt which were established when the E8 and E9 pay grades materialized.

The Air Force has had First Sergeants since day one. The Air Force differs from the Army in that First Sergeant is a position and not a grade.
After the "supergrades" came along you could be a E-7, E-8 or a E-9 and be a First Sergeant. The grade authorized is tied to the number of enlisted in the unit.
In 31-1/2 years of service I saw many, many E-7 First Sergeants, a few E-8 First Sergeants and have never seen an E-9 First Sergeant.
And then there are Senior Enlisted Advisers/Command Chiefs which a totally different subject.

[Jester]

In 8 years I saw one Chief with a diamond, and the handful of seniors just happened to promote while first sergeants.

My main question was if first sergeant was always a "senior" NCO responsibility even though the only SNCO rank then was MSgt.

I used to have an article about the selection process when the supergrades came about. Interesting how they looked at a pool of MSgts and decided who would be masters, seniors, and chiefs.

[TheSkyHornet]

Maybe a side topic on an already derailed thread:

Why did the Air Force---if anyone knows---elect to go with the First Sergeant role not being tied to a rank (rather instead using a series of eligible ranks)?

Is it the echelon and command structure design, and how it differs from land-based units?

[SarDragon]

I think it is dependent on command size. The Navy has a similar structure, where a SNCO is the Command Chief (Senior Enlisted Advisor in times past). Smaller commands will use a Chief, larger ones will use a Senior Chief, and the biggest ones use a Master Chief.

There is also a Command Master Chief career path where that position becomes your primary assignment, regardless of original specialty.

[PHall]

I think it is dependent on command size. The Navy has a similar structure, where a SNCO is the Command Chief (Senior Enlisted Advisor in times past). Smaller commands will use a Chief, larger ones will use a Senior Chief, and the biggest ones use a Master Chief.

There is also a Command Master Chief career path where that position becomes your primary assignment, regardless of original specialty.

SarDragon got it. The grade authorized for the First Sergeant manpower position is dependent on the unit size.
First Sergeant in the Air Force is a "Special Duty", just like Recruiters, MTI's, etc...  So it's open to all AFSC's and not just the AFSC's that are in that unit.

[TheSkyHornet]

Maybe it's just a translation of terminology for me.

I'm atrocious at understanding Air Force methodology

[NIN]

we've taken this one as far afield as it needs to go.