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"Affirmative"

Started by wuzafuzz, March 20, 2009, 07:07:54 pm

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wuzafuzz

Last weekend I drove through a few states to visit some family.  Along the way I monitored 121.5 and CAP frequencies.  While passing through a state that shall remain nameless, I listened to a SAREX in progress.  Some of the radio procedures seemed odd.  What really stood out was what I felt was misuse of the proword "affirmative."   At first I thought I was hearing partial exchanges but after a while it was obvious it was intentional. 

Example:
"Flaming Monkey 5, Mission Base, RTB."
"Mission Base, Flaming Monkey 5, affirmative."

To my ear that leaves plenty of room for doubt and doesn't jive with CAPR 100-3 Attachment 1.  (Long time radio user, low-time CAP commo dude.)  I would prefer a "wilco" or a read back with a "wilco" attached.  I'll concede it may be a local norm, but to simply reply "affirmative" seems lacking.  It reminds me of ordering food at a fast food store; if the cashier simply responds "yes" I will have no faith in the order being right.  It also leaves me wondering what else isn't done right.  Professional image and all.

So, is this common in CAP?  Am I just too nit-picky about radio procedures?
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

Always Ready

In my experience (three different wings now), that is not common. As you said, "wilco" or a read back with a "wilco" attached would be appropriate answers.

Personally, I think the Mission Base MRO should have corrected "Flaming Monkey 5" on the spot and, if they could, redo that part of the conversation just to make sure they understand what they did wrong. Someone should send those folks back through BCUT  ;)

Rob Sherlin

 I'm not a radio operator, but I would tend to agree. Everyone (all units) should go by the same radio code. What if there's a joint effort between several units, and you have one unit doing their own thing (as far as communication practices)?
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

RiverAux

I rarely hear "wilco" used but agree that affirmative isn't right. 

Major Lord

I think the correct proword to use in the above example is "Roger" , with Wilco being a good alternative. Lets not let form interfere with function though.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Always Ready

March 20, 2009, 08:33:20 pm #5 Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 08:39:34 pm by Always Ready
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 20, 2009, 07:24:28 pm
I'm not a radio operator, but I would tend to agree. Everyone (all units) should go by the same radio code. What if there's a joint effort between several units, and you have one unit doing their own thing (as far as communication practices)?


I don't want you to get the wrong view of CAP communications so I'm going to give you a little introduction to it. There are standards for communication set forth by National. We are all supposed to be playing by the same rules but every once and a while local oddities pop up. This could have been an example of that or it may have just been a new radio operator or one with little or no experience actually using what they learned. In most cases, in order to use a radio everyone has to take what is called the BCUT (Basic Communication User Training) class. It goes over the use of prowords (like affirmative and wilco) and some basic standards that everyone in CAP uses. To use a radio by yourself with no supervision, you generally have to take an ACUT (Advanced Communication User Training) class, in addition to the BCUT, which goes over some advanced material. Most of the material is similar to what other folks use so we (being CAP) can easily communicate with others. As I said, we are all supposed to be playing by the same rules, but sometimes local procedures take hold and make things different. In this case, I really believe that this was just a new radio operator and it was a honest mistake. Hopefully, that cleared things up for you and if you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.

Always Ready

March 20, 2009, 08:36:49 pm #6 Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 08:59:01 pm by MIKE
Quote from: Major Lord on March 20, 2009, 08:30:02 pm
I think the correct proword to use in the above example is "Roger" , with Wilco being a good alternative. Lets not let form interfere with function though.

Major Lord


Uh, this would be a "Wilco" moment not a "Roger" moment. "Roger" means understood. "Wilco" means understood and will comply. (That's why we are not supossed to use both at the same time, because it is redundant like "Over and Out") They were given the order to do something, telling Mission Base that you understood doesn't mean that you are going to comply with the order.

arajca

Quote from: Always Ready on March 20, 2009, 08:33:20 pm
To use a radio by yourself with no supervision, you generally have to take an ACUT (Advanced Communication User Training) class, in addition to the BCUT, which goes over some advanced material. Most of the material is similar to what other folks use so we (being CAP) can easily communicate with others.

Incorrect. B-CUT is required to us a CAP radio unsupervised. A-CUT is required to get a call sign.
Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-1Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. Application for certification may be made after attending a communications orientation class, referred to as Basic Communications User training (BCUT).


Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-35-3. Advanced Communications User Training. More advanced training, referred to as Advanced Communications User Training (ACUT), is required for some members. Specifically, those individuals who operate their own radio station on CAP frequencies, who want to pursue the Communications Officer Specialty Training, or who assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset require advance training. This training will be conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. No card or form is issued as proof of this training. It is simply recorded in the individual's personnel records (CAPF 45 or CAPF 66). Before registering a radio station to a member, the director of communications or licensing officer will validate that the member has met this training requirement.

Rob Sherlin

 Always Ready..Thanks for the invite and all the informative info as I was kinda' thinking about communications as a specialty. But, I'm kind of waiting to see what my squadron needs me to do first, and I can always get into it later, among other things.
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

Major Carrales

As we do it in South Texas... (CALL signs are Standard TEXAS WING call signs avaiable online, no OPSEC issue; "*" insserted as an extra precausion)

"TXCAP **00 this is TXCAP **01, returning to base, OVER"

Reply...
"TXCAP **01, this is TXCAP **00, ROGER.  What is your ETA"

Counter Reply...

"TXCAP **00 this is TXCAP **01, ETA at 16420L hrs (or ZULU as per regs on ES), approximately TWO FIFE Minutes...TWENTY FIFE minutes, OVER."

Squadron HQ sign out.
"TXCAP **01, this is TXCAP **00, ETA UNDERSTOOD...TXCAP **00...OUT"

Never forget, IAW NIMS and Incident Command protocols, we should be using clear communication free from Jargon et al.  Tatical call signs and propwords are not "jargon," but rather Phonetic courtesy to avoid "radio chaos."  If not, all we'll hear is radio goo-goo and radio ga-ga.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

wuzafuzz

It wasn't simply a new operator.  Everyone I heard was doing it.  Maybe they had a lot of new radio operators in the field that day.  ;-)  I suspect it has become local procedure in that area.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

Always Ready

Quote from: arajca on March 20, 2009, 08:56:12 pm
Quote from: Always Ready on March 20, 2009, 08:33:20 pm
To use a radio by yourself with no supervision, you generally have to take an ACUT (Advanced Communication User Training) class, in addition to the BCUT, which goes over some advanced material. Most of the material is similar to what other folks use so we (being CAP) can easily communicate with others.

Incorrect. B-CUT is required to us a CAP radio unsupervised. A-CUT is required to get a call sign.
Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-1Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. Application for certification may be made after attending a communications orientation class, referred to as Basic Communications User training (BCUT).


Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-35-3. Advanced Communications User Training. More advanced training, referred to as Advanced Communications User Training (ACUT), is required for some members. Specifically, those individuals who operate their own radio station on CAP frequencies, who want to pursue the Communications Officer Specialty Training, or who assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset require advance training. This training will be conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. No card or form is issued as proof of this training. It is simply recorded in the individual’s personnel records (CAPF 45 or CAPF 66). Before registering a radio station to a member, the director of communications or licensing officer will validate that the member has met this training requirement.


I know, I know, I know. Some wings (like my own and one that I was a part of) like to play by their own rules. That's why I used the word generally. And yes I have taken this issue up with my chain of command, I got smacked down. Thanks for pointing it out (I mean this sincerely and not sarcastically). I probably should have quoted 100-1 when I did this. But, I didn't want to tell Rob something and if/when he goes through these courses with his wing, he finds out that may or may not be the case. I would rather him get the jist of the program and underestimate what the privileges are, than overestimate what the privileges are.

My current wing follows these basic rules:
BCUT: Can operate radio under the supervision of someone. (Who is that someone, I don't know)
ACUT: Can operate radio unsupervised.
If you want a call sign here, you must own a radio and have both courses completed.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 20, 2009, 09:18:52 pm
It wasn't simply a new operator.  Everyone I heard was doing it.  Maybe they had a lot of new radio operators in the field that day.  ;-)  I suspect it has become local procedure in that area.

Gotta love those local procedures ;)

Major Lord

Quote from: Always Ready on March 20, 2009, 08:36:49 pm
Quote from: Major Lord on March 20, 2009, 08:30:02 pm
I think the correct proword to use in the above example is "Roger" , with Wilco being a good alternative. Lets not let form interfere with function though.

Major Lord


Uh, this would be a "Wilco" moment not a "Roger" moment. "Roger" means understood. "Wilco" means understood and will comply. (That's why we are not supossed to use both at the same time, because it is redundant like "Over and Out") They were given the order to do something, telling Mission Base that you understood doesn't mean that you are going to comply with the order.


"Wilco" implicitly contains the word "Roger". Wilco or Roger would have been an appropriate response, unless your Wing uses the term "Roger" to mean that you acknowledge the transmitted order, but choose to disregard it. Personally, I would have responded "Roger. RTB-OUT" or Wilco RTB, in case the nonexistent proword "RTB" is misunderstood;  "What did he say? KGB? STP?"LSD?

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

a2capt

At least it was something that was unmistakeable on the air.

There's a local here who uses the term "Very well" for what seems like a number of responses ranging from "I understand" to "okay, you can do that".  It's really ambiguous.

RRLE

[There's a local here who uses the term "Very well"]

"Very well" is used by the Coast Guard and possibly others. The context I have seen or heard it used in is by the commanding officer of the moment to acknowledge information from the look-outs. If the look-out does not hear a 'very well' they are supposed to repeat their message.


arajca

Quote from: RRLE on March 21, 2009, 12:03:17 pm
[There's a local here who uses the term "Very well"]

"Very well" is used by the Coast Guard and possibly others. The context I have seen or heard it used in is by the commanding officer of the moment to acknowledge information from the look-outs. If the look-out does not hear a 'very well' they are supposed to repeat their message.


So, in that context, it has specific meaning. Similar to "copy" in CAP. Unlike the "local" who uses it as a generic response.

JoeTomasone

March 21, 2009, 01:54:23 pm #16 Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 02:24:16 pm by MIKE
Quote from: Always Ready on March 20, 2009, 09:20:43 pm
Quote from: arajca on March 20, 2009, 08:56:12 pm
Quote from: Always Ready on March 20, 2009, 08:33:20 pm
To use a radio by yourself with no supervision, you generally have to take an ACUT (Advanced Communication User Training) class, in addition to the BCUT, which goes over some advanced material. Most of the material is similar to what other folks use so we (being CAP) can easily communicate with others.

Incorrect. B-CUT is required to us a CAP radio unsupervised. A-CUT is required to get a call sign.
Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-1Members are authorized to operate CAP radio stations upon certification by wing or higher authority. Application for certification may be made after attending a communications orientation class, referred to as Basic Communications User training (BCUT).


Quote from: CAPR 100-1, Chapter 5, para 5-35-3. Advanced Communications User Training. More advanced training, referred to as Advanced Communications User Training (ACUT), is required for some members. Specifically, those individuals who operate their own radio station on CAP frequencies, who want to pursue the Communications Officer Specialty Training, or who assume staff positions requiring they be issued a corporate radio asset require advance training. This training will be conducted under the oversight of the wing director of communications who will designate qualified trainers within the wing. No card or form is issued as proof of this training. It is simply recorded in the individual's personnel records (CAPF 45 or CAPF 66). Before registering a radio station to a member, the director of communications or licensing officer will validate that the member has met this training requirement.


I know, I know, I know. Some wings (like my own and one that I was a part of) like to play by their own rules. That's why I used the word generally. And yes I have taken this issue up with my chain of command, I got smacked down. Thanks for pointing it out (I mean this sincerely and not sarcastically). I probably should have quoted 100-1 when I did this. But, I didn't want to tell Rob something and if/when he goes through these courses with his wing, he finds out that may or may not be the case. I would rather him get the jist of the program and underestimate what the privileges are, than overestimate what the privileges are.

My current wing follows these basic rules:
BCUT: Can operate radio under the supervision of someone. (Who is that someone, I don't know)
ACUT: Can operate radio unsupervised.
If you want a call sign here, you must own a radio and have both courses completed.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 20, 2009, 09:18:52 pm
It wasn't simply a new operator.  Everyone I heard was doing it.  Maybe they had a lot of new radio operators in the field that day.  ;-)  I suspect it has become local procedure in that area.

Gotta love those local procedures ;)


Incidentally, anyone -- CAP member or not -- can operate a CAP radio under the supervision of someone who holds a BCUT per 100-1 -- so you can tell your members not to bother with a BCUT since it doesn't grant them anything under that screwed-up and ill-advised "policy".

Incidentally, is that policy a published 100-1 supplement?  If not, I'd be challenging it anew.

sardak

Quote"Very well" is used by the Coast Guard and possibly others.

From the US Navy Bluejacket's Manual:
When a senior wants to indicate that she or he has heard and understood a report from a junior, she or he will answer, "Very well." A junior never says "Very well" to a senior.

Mike