Is GSAR about to get its due in CAP?

[sardak]

The difference between us and them, as I saw it, was that many of those folks were under employed...

That's too bad. That was not and has not been our experience.

Mike

[Devil Doc]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

[Texas Raiders]

I had a conversation with my chief the other day regarding CAP.  He is aware that there is a squadron in town, but that's about it.  Here are some questions he asked me. 

Civil Air Patrol who?-  Who is CAP?
Civil Air Patrol what?-  What do they do?  What kind of resources and capabilities do they provide?  What kind of training and qualifications do they have?
Civil Air Patrol why?- Why call them?  Are they proficient?  Are they consistent?
Civil Air Patrol where?-  Where are these CAP resources?
Civil Air Patrol when?-  When can I use them?  Can I call for them anytime?
Civil Air Patrol how?-  How do I use them?  How do I call them when I need them?  How long will I wait for them to mobilize?  How will I know that they will respond at all?

I don't know how it is in other regions, but I know that there is a lot of uncertainty and hesitation when calling upon certain volunteer organizations around here.  I was able to answer most of those questions for him, but I was left wondering what CAP does to educate people so they don't have to ask those questions.  Needless to say, I earned myself the assignment of contacting the local squadron and gathering research for the chief.  Thoughts?

[Stonewall]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Heh, as a government employee you really don't know how good you have it.  As someone who has worked both as a federal employee and in the private sector, the only people I know that have it better than government employees seems to be people who work at banks.  This is especially true when it comes to paid holidays and vacation time.

[Flying Pig]

In the case of my CAP just clogs up the machine.  We have our own aircraft, however, there have been needs where a CAP highbird has been useful when used.  As far as ground teams.   CAP GT's are nothing more than volunteers with whistles and canteens.  I mean that seriously.  Even search bases that Ive been to with CAP are night and day compared to the command structure I have seen on SARs that do not involve CAP.   CAP members cant fly on aircraft, cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days, arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover. Cant rappel, cant fast rope, cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license.  Most of the time, they are showing up with junk in regards to gear and vehicles.  We dont want kids showing up to assist on our SARs.   LE SAR members are being flown to search grids and dropped off because the search area is 20 miles from the Command Post, while CAP members set out on foot, so they end up, if they do get invited, being tasked with busy work that is of pretty low priority. 

If you want to just saturate an area with people in orange vests calling the victims name, CAP would be an asset.  Beyond the simple things, CAP GTs become a liability.  If its all an area has, sure, better than nothing.  Using CAP in an area that already has professional teams, CAP is not of any use beyond maybe base support staff with the exclusion of aircraft.  THis isnt a pilot vs GT argument.  Its just based on my experiences being both CAP and LE SAR at the same time.  All a CAP unit can do is try to gain the trust of their local areas and go from there.   In large disasters where multiple Fed agencies show up, Yes, CAP gets in and gets involved.  On the local levels, my experience is that CAP is a pain in the behind to try to deal with. 

[RogueLeader]

In a 2 for 2 GT missions for Wyoming, CAP has finds, even with "Professional" SAR teams on site.

[Devil Doc]

Why cant we ride in other planes and other county vehicles? Last time i checked SMs can. Im not talking about cadets when it comes to SAR. SMs can do anything an LE can do when is comes to SAR (exept carry weapons/detain, etc)

[NC Hokie]

Ok then Wing Level should get active. Our CAP unit trains all the time and keep it touch with the County/State EMs. Its the NASAR Qaul that they keep throwing back into our face. It kinda earks me some. Its kinda like saying Only Chevys can work, FORDS can stand back and watch. It is just a preference.

NCWG is active in this, but the simple fact is that the ones doing the calling (County and State EMs) are the ones that set the rules. The answer for now has to be to suck it up, get the NASAR quals to show the players in your AOR that you're "serious" about SAR, and then perform in an exemplary manner when the opportunity arises.

Please feel free to contact me privately if you want to discuss the specifics of our wing further.

[sarmed1]

.....CAP members cant fly on aircraft, cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days, arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover. Cant rappel, cant fast rope, cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license.  ...

Except for the fast rope part, most of these are a dont/wont vs cant.


mk

[SJFedor]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

And this is a big reason why CAP isn't called too much for GSAR. You can't go to whomever runs SAR in your area and say "we've got all these resources! And we're great.....as long as you call after 5pm on weekdays, or on weekends". Not very helpful when you're doing planning.

Whereas the more professional teams seem to 1) have the toys/equipment to get the job done, 2) have the committed manpower to get it done.

Look up Nashville OEM. Their ESU is all volunteer, and responds all over the mid-state for incidents. SAR, dive rescue, swift water, etc etc. They're VERSATILE, which is a big key when the people who make decisions are thinking about who to call. They'd rather make 1 phone call and know that, regardless of what's going on, the people they called can handle it, instead of calling CAP, wading through an inordinate amount of rules and paperwork, and maybe getting a smattering of people, most of which have no credible training other than what CAP provides in house, which I'm sorry to say, hasn't caught up with the times.

[JayT]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Unfortunately, emergencies don't always happen 'after work or on the weekends.' Also, you can't discount cadets who make up a goodly percentage of CAP's GSAR capacity last I remember. Just because you 'can' do what an 'LE' can do, doesn't mean you're trained, equipped, and insured to do it.

[NIN]

What Stonewall said is Kinda True. I cannot leave my work to go on a SAR Mission, but after work or on the weekends im there!! I work for the Government so they dont like it to well when i leave to go volunteer and leave them short. I wish i could find a person to talk to so i can respond, but more than likely i willhave to use my Leave, which is Precise to me.

Unfortunately, emergencies don't always happen 'after work or on the weekends.' Also, you can't discount cadets who make up a goodly percentage of CAP's GSAR capacity last I remember. Just because you 'can' do what an 'LE' can do, doesn't mean you're trained, equipped, and insured to do it.

In some states, they specifically disallow individuals under the age of 18 from participating in SAR.

CAP's rules aside, you basically don't get allowed to play in the sandbox if you show up with a ground team of < 18 year old cadets.

[Walkman]

In some states, they specifically disallow individuals under the age of 18 from participating in SAR.

That was the rule in Utah when I lived there. When I first started with CAP I was stoked about GSAR. I love the whole idea of it. However, after 5 years of pining for training and missions, I've switched to focusing on air ops. It's not my favorite thing, as I'm still working on getting a handle on air sickness, but when I look at the number of SAR, DR and CD mission my wing does now it's the only way to really be included in anything real.

That said, we are the Aux of the Air Force, so is it really that surprising that we focus on air ops more than GSAR?

[John Bryan]

So as to the getting off work issue....not all CAP members work Mon to Fri 9 to 5....like any volunteer ES group we need to recruit enough people and types of people to be able to respond night or day. This is a struggle we share with every volunteer fire dept or rescue squad out there.  Many volunteer fire depts where I live have a harder time getting folks to respond weekdays but they find a way.

I think this is the bigger issue....we are volunteers but are we going to be volunteer professionals like volunteer fire fighters or are we going to be  volunteer amateurs like CERT and VOAD....I really think this is the $64,000 question.

Some states, like Indiana require employers to release CAP members in most cases for real world missions.

As for the under 18 thing...this is a case by case and as said state by state issue. As I have stated in past discussions most life guards in most state and local parks are under 18. Some volunteer fire dept let cadets or juniors respond to calls with limitations on some things they can do. For 40 years, Post 53 has provided the town of Darien, CT with emergency medical services, while providing local high school students with an opportunity to serve their community.

[Eclipse]

CAP members cant fly on aircraft,

Says who?  Not CAP rules.

cant stay out in harsh conditions for multiple days,

Um?  What? 

arent physically fit to perform in the areas we cover.

You or CAP?

Cant rappel, cant fast rope,

Not our job.

cant jump in other county vehicles not driven by someone with a CAP driver license. 

Says who?

Most of the time, they are showing up with junk in regards to gear and vehicles. 

For the most part I'll leave that on the table, except to say, "Sorry if the people showing up for FREE, on their OWN TIME,
who have paid for their own crappy gear and vehicles, don't measure up to the "professionals".

I'll say this, at least in my parts, we are constantly being compared to EMAs, and "local SAR groups".  These organizations
are spoken of in hushed tones, with reverence...until you meet them.  They show up in ad hoc groups of 3-5, no uniform
to speak of, driving HAM-Sexy death traps, and 1/3rd of them are single-animal dog "teams" where one soccer mom
bought a beagle and realized she can write off the kibble if she goes to a "tracker" class.  Then it's a 501-filing and
she's a "team".

If things aren't happening, it's because of the failure of the local leadership.  This is not something NHQ can fix.

I do agree, however, with those who understand that if CAP is to be taken seriously, everywhere, then those
who think that "GT's are for cadets" need to just make an exit.  Until GTs sit at the same table as the aircrews,
nothing will change.

[Devil Doc]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

[JayT]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

Becareful what you wish for, otherwise your managers might give you all the time in the world to volunteer....

[Flying Pig]

Sorry if the people showing up for FREE, on their OWN TIME, who have paid for their own crappy gear and vehicles, don't measure up to the "professionals".

Nobody cares about the plight of the poor volunteer.  You either can or you cant.  Maybe EMA's in certain areas are seeing that CAP'ers arent any different, any better equipped or any better trained than the chick you talked about with the beagle writing off her dog food, so why deal with them? 

Interesting observation though..... we have a 30 member volunteer SAR component to our department team.  They pay for their own gear, a lot of their own training.  Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities.  You are laying CAP on the table with a "FREE" sign attached and in certain areas, nobody is picking it up. Keep sitting by the phone making excuses  if you want ..... but face it, for some reason she aint callin' you back.  Maybe something to be learned there. 

THe problem with CAP is that is isnt attached to anything local.  Its on its own.  Sheriffs have their Reserves and volunteer SAR Posses.  Fire Depts have Reserves and Volunteer fire fighters, Police have their Reserve Officers.  Anyone see the connection?  Its a known factor.  CAP is not.  They dont know anything about your training, your experience, they cant control you.  You show up and nobody knows anything about you.  You are just another volunteer group looking to play and they are not required to find you a place at the table.  Good Luck though.  Reminding everyone you are a poor volunteer is always a party favorite.  And bringing kids?  I agree 100%....Not a great way to start the show in the real world.

[Devil Doc]

What i was getting at is i think that these other Volunteer teams think the cadets are a liability. Does nicer gear make you better? I always wonder how the Volunteer EMS and Firefighters can call out of work to respond to a emergency. I doubt any of them work for the government, if they do somehow they get to respond. Some jobs are leaneant, mine is not so much. Eclipse has some good points.

Becareful what you wish for, otherwise your managers might give you all the time in the world to volunteer....

That would mean i would have no job I have a 5 month old, hes a handful, and expensive 

[Eclipse]

Interesting observation though..... we have a 30 member volunteer SAR component to our department team.  They pay for their own gear, a lot of their own training.  Their monthly meetings are about SAR and always involve something physical fitness related.  Not a bunch of peripheral stuff that is liability based.  Lame safety meetings, promotions, ribbons, uniforms, Eservices, etc etc.   If you didnt know the people personally, you would not be able to tell the volunteers from the full timers.  Gear, training, physical fitness levels and abilities. 

And who does all the "safety, liability, and eservices administration"? 

Oh, right - the professional department they are attached to - and I'll bet a Venti that department spends plenty on
"lame" safety, liability, ribbons, and administration.

Comparing a volunteer component of a professional department isn't exactly cricket.