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10-4

Started by NateF, March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 am

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davidsinn

Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 pm
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!


Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.


What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

JeffDG

Quote from: davidsinn on March 03, 2012, 05:00:13 pm
Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 pm
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!


Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.


What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Well, hell...that's much easier!

Thanks!!

davidsinn

Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 05:32:10 pm
Quote from: davidsinn on March 03, 2012, 05:00:13 pm
Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 pm
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!


Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.


What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Well, hell...that's much easier!

Thanks!!


I'm an FLS and when not moving aluminium around the ramp I assist the Air Boss however I can which usually includes radio work. I'm also a GTL, MRO and working on aircrew. I have a lot of practice with radios... ;D
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Flying Pig

In one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"

No confusion there! >:D

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 03, 2012, 06:43:52 pm
In one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"

No confusion there! >:D


Rob, don't forget CHP's 11 codes!

RADIOMAN015

March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 pm #25 Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 08:43:55 pm by RADIOMAN015
Quote from: NateF on March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 am
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.

I would say 10-4 good buddy ;)

HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.  The issue is if you use too many code words than you risk the chance on total confusion, which is highly probable in CAP  :-[

On the HF/ALE side we've done some experimenting with pre developed message formats, so that lets say  TANGO ONE format, would have a, b, c, d and each would mean something e.g.  a. air crews available, b. ground teams available, c. aircraft available, d. ground vehicles available.  This makes it easy to send a short text message so it would be "T1a5b3c3d4".   You could also have a list of one use  authentication codes for use at the end of the message if you were concerned about verification of legitimate traffic.
RM       

Flying Pig

Holy Toledo....

Listening to those guys on the radio is like sitting in Algebra class!

Spaceman3750

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 pm
HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.     


Not if you care about not violating 100-3.

Quotea. Codes and Ciphers.  Locally designed codes or adaptation of official codes, however
well intentioned, will not deceive a cryptanalyst; only officially authorized codes are to be used.
It has become a practice within CAP to assign "code words" to various mission events, in the
belief that doing so will conceal these events from an undesired listener.  This practice is seldom
effective, violates the principles of the Incident Command System and is therefore not
authorized.


The "officially authorized codes" are the prowords listed in Attachment 1.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 03, 2012, 08:14:42 pm
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 pm
HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.     


Not if you care about not violating 100-3.

Quotea. Codes and Ciphers.  Locally designed codes or adaptation of official codes, however
well intentioned, will not deceive a cryptanalyst; only officially authorized codes are to be used.
It has become a practice within CAP to assign "code words" to various mission events, in the
belief that doing so will conceal these events from an undesired listener.  This practice is seldom
effective, violates the principles of the Incident Command System and is therefore not
authorized.


The "officially authorized codes" are the prowords listed in Attachment 1.

National HQ right now is working on short text message formats for ALE.  We conducted a HF/ALE exercise and as the project officer I felt we might as well try it to see how well it works with the short text messaging option (especially if Link Quality Analysis % was low).  All stations participating had the list of the formats and what we would be transmitting.  Seemed to work fine for us, cuts down on the typing required.  There was no intention for this to be a security/cipher code but more of an abbreviated method of information transmission.  Surely IF a plan only has one time use of particular message formats, than there is a bit of COMSEC, but the primary reason again is to limit the amount of typing.
RM

   

lordmonar

In my day job....working with USAF RPA's....we use a program called MIRC chat.  It is basically a message forum room that they use in the AOR.

There is an unwritten code that has developed over time to speed up communication.

RTB-return to base
C-Copy
TY-Thank you

and that sort of stuff.

In voice comm...we can't get away from it....it just happens.
The point being....what ever the code you end up using it should be easy to teach and easy to understand.
The PROWORDS that we use come directly from the military....so they are pretty much universal.  Even if you were a brand spanking new-be who has never seen or heard anyone working a radio before it does not take long for you to learn what we use.

The 10 codes however.....take much too long to learn and as we see here they often have different meanings between agencies.

Now....on the HF/ALE system where everything is text based....a simple code used to improve communications would not be out of the question.

Keep it simple and make it easy to learn.....and I got no problem.
If you got to go out and learn what the codes for 200+ possible messages are....then no....stick to plain text message.

When I was working USAF satellite comms...we would transmit out station status to the satellite controlers every 3-4 hours.  We used a short hand/standard format to transmit this data.

Station#/Power/EBno/RSL/Weather.

So instead of typeing This is station 123 our power is 10 watts, Ebn0 is 10 to the -20, our received signal strenth is 10 and out weather is broken clouds.

We would send:
123/10/20/10/bkn

The only codes you had to learn were the abbreviaitons for weather.
CLR=Clear
BKN=Broken Clouds
RAI=Rain
SNO=Snow
OVC=Overcast
WIN=Winds

saved a lot of typing on a really stuipd key bad.

So...if we have a lot of standard reports sent by text....I don't see a problem with a short hand report format.


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Spaceman3750

IRC - I haven't heard of anyone using that in awhile ;D.

ol'fido

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 pm
Quote from: NateF on March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 am
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.

I would say 10-4 good buddy ;)


HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.  The issue is if you use too many code words than you risk the chance on total confusion, which is highly probable in CAP  :-[

On the HF/ALE side we've done some experimenting with pre developed message formats, so that lets say  TANGO ONE format, would have a, b, c, d and each would mean something e.g.  a. air crews available, b. ground teams available, c. aircraft available, d. ground vehicles available.  This makes it easy to send a short text message so it would be "T1a5b3c3d4".   You could also have a list of one use  authentication codes for use at the end of the message if you were concerned about verification of legitimate traffic.
RM     
I wouldn't use that "good buddy" thing much. It's taken on a whole new meaning these days.

The hardest thing to teach to new communicators is how to pick up the mike and talk without hemming, hawing, and trying to use what they think is "radio speak"(the very stilted and formal language you hear on some radio nets). Just trying to get them to speak in everyday conversational English with the proper prowords where necessary is what we should shoot for.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

RRLE

APCO Position Statement Plain Speech in Public Safety Communications

extracts:

QuoteDue to a number of important factors, APCO International renews its assertion that plain speech communications over public safety radio systems is preferred over the traditional 10-Codes and dispatch signals used by a majority of law enforcement agencies across the country. It is recognized that valid concerns about officer safety or confidential information being jeopardized should be resolved between the local agency(s) and the serving public safety communications center.


Addressing specific codes:

QuoteAPCO International encourages the use of sensible plain speech alternatives for common 10-Codes. For example:

10-4 - copy or acknowledge or understood
10-20 - my location is
10-28 - registration check - reg. check



QuoteAPCO International strongly supports the autonomy of local, county, state and other law enforcement agencies to make operational decisions. However, NIMS compliance is important and this fundamental communication procedure will have a dramatic affect on interoperability across the nation. APCO International supports the goal of NIMS of good faith efforts at all levels nationwide to move to plain speech for all emergency operations


QuoteIn one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"


I googled APCO 10 codes. At least 6 sites claimed to be the official APCO 10-codes, although the APCO site appears not to list them anymore. 2 codes got 2 votes each for what the code for getting the correct time was but 10-36 had the most votes. The codes were: 10-34 (listed in some lists as the code for a riot), 10-35 (listed by some as the code for major crime alert) and 10-36 (listed by some as the code for confidential information).

The 'correct' code for ETA also is split over at least 2 codes: 10-26 and 10-77.

And the beat goes on.

SARDOC

To the OP.  10-4 is commonly understood.  However, Not All Jurisdictions used the 10-4 to mean Acknowledged or understood.  Some Agencies has used it to mean something else.  Not many but more than one.  That is why in order to be NIMS compliant those codes have gone away.

a2capt

All this makes me think of.. a little C.W. McCall...

Some clown insists on a 10-36 This here's what you give 'em:

"Four, good buddy, I made me a study an' I figger it's the dark a' the moon, son
It's half-past spring an' a quarter ta fall  an' the big hand's a-settin' on noon, son
Now if the fish don't bite and the almanac's right and the groundhog sees his shadow
A 10-36 goes tick-tock-tick."

..and that's what I call ratchetjaw!

Gotta git ya a base, out there at yer place with a forty-foot pole on the chimney
With a thousand watts in yer flowerpots and a ree-mote line in the biffy
If ya feel a twitch when ya throw the switch ya gonna dim all the lights in Wichita
Gonna send out a wave ta make the government rave!

And this here's whatcha tell 'em all:

"Yeah, four, good buddy, yer comin' in cruddy but yer walkin' right through my wall, boy
Yer carrier's cool, you makin' me drool you were definitely battin' my ball, boy
You hittin' me round about fifteen pound you cut me up like a bandsaw
But what the heck, it's just a radio check."

And that there's how to ratchetjaw

There's a Song for Everything, and I know too many of them.