What can I do in CAP Comms?

[MilesDyson]

Hi -

I am new to CAP Comms. I am an amateur radio operator and have all sorts of HF and VHF gear available for use. I know a long time ago lots of Hams were involved in CAP, but that things have changed. Can I still participate in HF nets, etc, if I don't have a CAP issued radio? Can I use PC-ALE on the ALE nets? Are we doing anything with packet or digital comms? My squadron commander wants me to be involved in comms but I don't seem to be able to get basic answers to questions and I don't want to invest a lot of time trying to get my station setup for CAP if I find out that I can't use my stuff. Any guidance?

THanks

[cap235629]

If your equipment is NTIA compliant, then you can use it on CAP nets.  No on the PC-ALE.  We are using APCO P-25 digital modulation on our VHF radios.  There is no current plan in  the works for packet comms.

If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude.

If you have any questions start with your squadron communications officer as most commanders knowledge of the program is limited to the "push this button to talk" level.  If there is not a comm officer at your unit, go to the group comm officer if your wing has a group structure and then to your wing DC.

[MilesDyson]

"If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude."

But isn't that what has pretty much killed CAP Comms over the past decade? I mean, I used to hear all about CAP from my Ham friends who were involved, but now they all seem to have gotten out of it. I just want to know whether I can make a contribution before I put time and effort into it. Also, my wing doesn't seem to have a strong Comms program - I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

[cap235629]

"If you want to be a player in the CAP comm world please do not have an "If I can't use MY equipment, I won't play" type of attitude."

But isn't that what has pretty much killed CAP Comms over the past decade? I mean, I used to hear all about CAP from my Ham friends who were involved, but now they all seem to have gotten out of it. I just want to know whether I can make a contribution before I put time and effort into it. Also, my wing doesn't seem to have a strong Comms program - I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

CAP Comms is FAR from dead.  The attitude expressed above actually got rid of "dead wood" as far as I am concerned.  Yes there was a ton of experienced operators who left the program, but their elitist attitude left with them.

CAP radios are issued according to a mission dictated Table of Allowances.  If you can fill a role within the TOA, you are issued a radio.

[davidsinn]

I don't think I would get assigned a radio.

You must have a need to have a radio to get assigned a corporate radio since they are a limited asset. I have a radio because I'm a ground team leader. My unit's comm officer does not have a radio because he has no real need for one.

[MilesDyson]

I guess that answers my questions then. Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills. 

[cap235629]

I guess that answers my questions then. Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills.

You can bring a TON to CAP comms but you do not have to have a radio to do so.  On a mission, you will be issued a radio when needed.  Your experience and knowledge will be welcomed, if not your equipment.

By being involved at the unit level you can be part of the solution to your wings comm challenges.  It is all about how you look at the communications SYSTEM.  We are not a radio club but part of a communications system that has a specific function and infrastructure.

[arajca]

Your skills are useful. The AF and National designed the Table of Allowances to support operational needs, which is how the military determines what it needs and who gets it. Keep in mind the table is not fully supplied. COWG has less than 1/2 the handhelds it is allowed and needs.

There is nothing stopping you from using your own equipment, it just needs to meet a higher standard than ham radio equipment does. The equipment CAP uses is spec'd by the military and purchased through military/GSA contracts.

CAP comms died out becuase of changes in technology, not because ham radio operators left CAP. Why deal with the limitations of radio or a call down list, when an email can reach more folks with less degradation of the message? It is being revived because many emergency service and management agencies have found out that commercial service (cell-phones and Nextel type devices) are operationally worthless in an emergency or disaster environment.

[arajca]

Since I am just a pilot, so I won't get issued a radio, so I don't need to participate in comms, nevermind that I am a software engineer who works on MILSATCOM and a ham operator for the past 30 years. I guess I am a little frustrated because one of the things I thought I could bring to CAP besides being a pilot was my radio skills.

Since you have the radio skills, maybe you won't be the pilot that is used as a bad example in training, as most are.

[MilesDyson]

Well, of course, when you talk about using the equipment that is "spec'd by the military" while you might  have better quality (questionable) you have vastly less quantity. By pushing the "dead wood" amateur radio operators out of the organization you are reducing by hundreds and thousands the people who would be able to stand ready and serve in an emergency. How many amateur radio VHF/UHF repeaters are there in your state? How many CAP repeaters? And, by pushing out the "dead wood" you are eliminating the people who have the skills to advance the state of the art. What we need at this point in CAP is the ability to downlink high bandwidth video and imagery in realtime and we need a high bandwidth two way data connection. But, no way that can be done with the present systems and no opportunity for those in CAP to explore and experiment with new technology. It appears that we are stuck.

[cap235629]

Well, of course, when you talk about using the equipment that is "spec'd by the military" while you might  have better quality (questionable) you have vastly less quantity. By pushing the "dead wood" amateur radio operators out of the organization you are reducing by hundreds and thousands the people who would be able to stand ready and serve in an emergency. How many amateur radio VHF/UHF repeaters are there in your state? How many CAP repeaters? And, by pushing out the "dead wood" you are eliminating the people who have the skills to advance the state of the art. What we need at this point in CAP is the ability to downlink high bandwidth video and imagery in realtime and we need a high bandwidth two way data connection. But, no way that can be done with the present systems and no opportunity for those in CAP to explore and experiment with new technology. It appears that we are stuck.

Your repeater argument is invalid as even if we wanted to, we CANNOT use amateur infrastructure.  Our HF system is actually getting better everyday and is what the push is for emergency comms.  VHF is strictly tactical use in an immediate operational area.

As far as data transfer, I agree it would be nice but is not the primary purpose of the Comm system.  Like it or not, it is what it is and it is what it is by design of the AF based upon our operational requirements.  Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

[arajca]

The number of ham repeaters of any flavor is irrelevent as they cannot be used by CAP (or to conduct CAP business by hams) per FCC regulations.

At this time, we do not have the frequency allotments to do data and video download, but we have not be tasked to do so by Operations. Comm cannot just do stuff or push the envelope without a justified need from operations. This is more than the local (or wing) ops guy telling his comm guy "It'd be nice if...". The comm folks discuss this frequently and there are discussions at national levels about how this can be accomplished, but to date, we have not received the tasking. As for exploring and experimenting with new technology, it's possible, but still needs to have the justified need and (the 800 lb gorilla in the room) funding. If it comes down to money for an experimental project or money to obtain needed equipment, your experiment will need to wait.

As for pushing the deadwood out, those were the members who, when told their modified ham equipment wouldn't be permitted on the CAP system, decided to take theirs toys and leave. There are many (including our National Comm Team Leader) how stayed and continued to contribute their skills to CAP. That's why any ham that comes in the attitude that they have to be allowed to use THEIR ham equipment on our system, or that THEIR equipment is superior, are not welcome. The ones who understand that the CAP system is NOT the same as the ham system and can make that mental adjustment, are welcome. CAP's system is a military system - our frequency allocation comes from the NTIA through the DoD, not from the FCC.

[MilesDyson]

The "reason" we can't use amateur radio is purely a decision made by CAP. I can't believe that amateur radio operators would rise up in protest if amateur radio was being used for valid emergency service training and missions - the largest justification amateurs have for their (our) frequency allocations is that we provide an emergency communications capability. It is also a silly argument to say that CAP can't use FRS radios for emergency service - as if FRS users would rise up in protest during Katrina or some such disaster because we were active on a few channels for a short time in a small area. These are ridiculous decisions made by CAP itself.   

Laws and regulations can and should be changed for the better. It's called democracy. In fact, CAP itself was started by what - a group of civilians who thought they could lend their services to the country.

And I am talking about this as a pilot, not as a comms person. I can plainly see the need for taking a Predator styled recon pod aloft to conduct a search, or to provide real time remote observation to an incident commander. As an engineer, I can plainly see how to do it - and I can even do it on my own dime, but I won't do it if I know in advance that my ideas cannot even be discussed because of how CAP has written its own regulations.

[arajca]

The decision was not CAP's. Some group called the Federal Communications Commission has the rule. It's not a matter of ham radio operators rising up in protest or not. It's a matter of following rules as written. Since a change in the rule allows for some usage of ham bands by federal agenices (because our frequency allotment comes vis the feds, the FCC considers us a federal agency), CAP has put in a request to fall under this, but nothing has come of it. The FRS argument was also not CAP's, it was the USAF's. CAP has pushed for their use, and managed to get a exemption carved out to allow them for use in contacting lost parties. That was a result of an aircrew doing that and resulting in 12 saves. The primary argument from the AF is the lack of security available and the potential for interference since FRS is public use and anyone can use them. I've seen folks get mad because there are so many users they cannot talk. On multiple channels.

You can see the need. Comm folks can see (and have seen) the need. Some Operations folks have. However, the VALIDATED REQUIREMENT has not been made. Without it, we cannot do anything about the perceived need. The necessity of the VALIDATED REQUIREMENT comes from the AF, not from CAP. Unfortunately, a previous experiment - ARCHER - has burned CAP. We developed the system, bought 16 prototype systems, got no support and currently only have 5-6 operational.

Change can be made, but until then, we still have operate under the rules as currently written.

[RADIOMAN015]

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).  It makes it much easier for radio operators to train and you are not depending upon the availability of a specific person so that your network will operate.  This should be an inspection item to ensure enough assets are available at CAP facilities throughout a wing so that the radio system is not degraded.
RM

[MilesDyson]

Hmmpff.

I mean really, if you want to establish a known reliable system by distributing corporate radios, fine. But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? And please don't tell me my equipment is not state of the art - I run a software defined radio which has a GPS disciplined oscillator. I can handle any data mode, digital voice, whatever. Exceeds any NTIA standards. 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

Yuck!

[Eclipse]

I will stick to flying.

Sounds like the best course of action for everyone involved.

[cap235629]

In Arkansas, we have a very extensive HF system set up with VHF relay capability to the majority of the state.  This equipment is primarily set up at members homes as most of our meeting locations preclude installation of the appropriate antenna's.  Your wing may be in a similar situation and there is a pretty good chance someone with your knowledge and experience would be chosen to be issued a radio.

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).  It makes it much easier for radio operators to train and you are not depending upon the availability of a specific person so that your network will operate.  This should be an inspection item to ensure enough assets are available at CAP facilities throughout a wing so that the radio system is not degraded.
RM

Believe it or not RM we agree.  However the reality of the situation is that most of our units meet in facilities that do not allow us to rig a 90 foot B&W antenna.  Some do not even allow the erection of a VHF antenna.  In these cases we have to work with what we have.  I am in the process of fixing the issue on a case by case basis.  In the mean time, we have to be operational and this is the way we have to operate, for now.

[coudano]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

[MilesDyson]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

[cap235629]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

[N Harmon]

I think it's better that many if not most CAP base station type equipment (both VHF and HF/SSB/ALE) should be set up and available at CAP facilities and NOT at a members' private home (at least one station for every operating area per the wing operations plan).

I agree 100%. Except for those dedicated members who conduct regular nets, and monitor radios throughout the day, stations should be located at CAP facilities.

And this is why I always shudder when I hear the words "OH! You're a ham, you should get involved in CAP communications"; because too many times that ends with the member frustrated just as our OP here has become.

Now, you want to know what you can do in CAP Comms without having a radio personally assigned to you? How about you start by getting fully qualified in CAP communications -- ACUT and CUL? Then work on putting together a station at your squadron HQ. Even if you do not have a radio, get everything else you would need. Antenna. Emergency power system. First aid kit, blanket, rope. Blank forms. Headsets. Furniture.

Seriously, if someone handed you a programmed EF Johnson in the box today, how many weeks or months would you be away from having a fully compliant radio station? So do the work now. And in the mean time start attending group and wing communications meetings (oh, your group or wing doesn't hold communications meetings? contact the group or wing DC and tell him/her you would like to plan one). Attend SAREXs, and work in communications. Get a feel for what works and doesn't work. Join the CAP communications group on Yahoo groups.

Do this, and I find it hard to believe your unit won't be issued a radio. Many wings issue out equipment only to have it returned, still new in the box, when a new codeplug comes out and reprogramming is mandated. If your wing sees your unit has a station, but no radio...well they just might find a reason to transfer an idle radio to you.

[cap235629]

speaking of code plugs, the new one is out. 

LET THE REPROGRAMMING GAMES BEGIN!

[Eclipse]

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

I can't begin to imagine why, but I know we are all curious as to this story.

[MilesDyson]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground. And no, it does not make sense to try and do this through ATC. I needed someone to be monitoring the CAP radio. Restricting the number of radios to only those issued by CAP cuts down the number of people who are able to monitor our channels. Insisting that the radios be installed at a squadron base further reduces the number of people who are on frequency monitoring.

And by the way, I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me. ALWAYS ON. And I ALWAYS have 121.5 on. ALWAYS.

[cap235629]

what can you do in cap comm???

communicate in morse code, banging your head against the wall

Sounds like it!

So, I am up in the air and I hear an ELT on 121.5. I want to call someone on the ground and let them know. But, we have only a few corporate radios issued, and the odds of one of them being on and someone listening is rather small. Compare that to a comms plan that is inclusive of hams and CAP members who own their own radios where the odds would be much higher that I could get through. But no, we don't want that...

...and yes, I have been in the air and needed to get in touch with a CAP unit (any unit!) and had no response on the company radio...

No you would contact ATC.  They handle the notification.  I thought you said you were a pilot?  That is Pilot 101.

And more often than not, I have attempted to contact a CAP plane and the Pilot doesn't even have the CAP radio TURNED ON.

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground. And no, it does not make sense to try and do this through ATC. I needed someone to be monitoring the CAP radio. Restricting the number of radios to only those issued by CAP cuts down the number of people who are able to monitor our channels. Insisting that the radios be installed at a squadron base further reduces the number of people who are on frequency monitoring.

And by the way, I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me. ALWAYS ON. And I ALWAYS have 121.5 on. ALWAYS.

The next step was to go on about your business.  What you did was self deploy.

[Eclipse]

Yes. I contacted ATC. The next step was to contact someone in CAP on the ground.

No.  It's not.

If you were on a mission, and/or in a CAP plane, you would have had a CAP radio, and this is a non-issue.

If you were flying in your capacity as a private pilot, member or not, your work is done once you make the report.  From there CAP is not involved
in any way whatsoever until and unless the AFRCC generate a mission.  We do not self-deploy, nor do are members start prosecuting searches
just because they think they hear something.

I ALWAYS have the CAP radio on when I fly because I never know when someone on the ground needs me.

No one on the ground needs you.  Life is not a constant emergency, and we have professional resources and organizational processes for dealing with "emergencies".

[coudano]

seriously... as long as CAP has its head buried in the "communications equals radios" sand,
we are going to continue to not get it.

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

[N Harmon]

Even if he was in a CAP aircraft with a radio, I think he is saying nobody on the ground has equipment.

Even still, what would you have expected a CAP member on the ground to do? ATC has a faster wire to AFRCC than most of us would. No CAP member below wing commander has the authority to tell you to break off and begin an ELT search, and I doubt many wing commanders would open a 911T mission upon only hearing an ELT.

[Eclipse]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is a somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

[cap235629]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

We work with what we have. I hope that this experience you speak of will be the catalyst to developing some kind of "Computer Aided Dispatch" system for CAP.

It is desperately needed.

[Eclipse]

I'm afraid I don't see the clue bus pulling around the corner on that one anytime soon.

To some extent this is a generational problem which will end with the realities of life span, in the same way that my children will never be concerned
about buying a VHS head cleaner.

I honestly see light at the end of the tunnel, it is somewhat small pinpoint, but I see it.

It got a bit brighter about a week or so ago when, as part of eval planning, CAP-USAF asked us "Why we are still using so much paper and dry erase boards?" we basically looked around at each other and the response was "We thought that was how you wanted things".

We fixed that fast, and I hope we don't look back.

We work with what we have. I hope that this experience you speak of will be the catalyst to developing some kind of "Computer Aided Dispatch" system for CAP.

It is desperately needed.

I do too, if not in form, at least in function and direction.  Anecdotal comments from the SC+ level of the eval were that people above and outside were watching what and how were doing towards broader implementation.

One can hope.

[wuzafuzz]

Hmmpff.

...But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

That is NOT what people here told you.  We are restricted to using equipment that is authorized, but it does not have to be government issued.  Plenty of CAP members use personally owned radios.  Of course those radios are commercial products, not amateur, gear.  I use a personally owned radio in addition to CAP owned radios.  You are good to go as long as the radio is on the approved list, you license it with your wing, and can program it.  I use my member owned radio for CAP and 2 meter ham.   What you cannot do is roll in with any piece of gear you want and fire it up on federal frequencies.  That is a restriction imposed by the Feds, not by CAP.  MARS is in the same boat and they are almost all hams.

There is no need to think that hams aren't welcome in CAP Comm.  Most of the CAP communicators I know are hams.  As long as you understand that CAP Comm is NOT the amateur radio service you can participate and enjoy it.  Before bashing CAP Comms take a look at ALL the other radio services.  Even GMRS, CB, MURS. etc.  No amateur gear allowed.  Police officers can't use ham radios, firefighters can't use ham radios, EMS, businesses, etc.  The support hams provide to some of those groups is different than those groups using amateur radio themselves.  Incidentally, if you read CAPR 100-1 you will see that CAP can solicit third-party assistance from amateur radio groups.  Just like everyone else.

There is plenty to do in CAP Communications and your skill set would be a welcome addition to most squadrons. 

[MilesDyson]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

[cap235629]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

[SarDragon]

Hmmpff.

I mean really, if you want to establish a known reliable system by distributing corporate radios, fine. But to tell those who can contribute more to the system that they can't because their equipment is not government issued? So we have say, ten "approved" radios in a wing but we tell the hundred hams in the wing that they can't volunteer the use of their systems and time because they are not government issued? And please don't tell me my equipment is not state of the art - I run a software defined radio which has a GPS disciplined oscillator. I can handle any data mode, digital voice, whatever. Exceeds any NTIA standards. 

I will stick to flying. CAP COMMS too dumb for me to deal with. Sounds like we are dealing with CB radio here.

Yuck!

Nobody ever said that. Ever. The radios used by CAP members, on CAP missions, must meet the requirements set down by the NTIA. Most of the available radios are CAP-owned. However, if you want to go out and buy your own, NTIA-compliant radio, go for it. Get it into the CAP system, and you're good to go.

You say your radio meets/exceeds NTIA standards. Is it on this list? If not, have you contacted NTC to see if it can be approved?

The biggest hindrance to member owned radios is the expense. Many folks just don't have the funds to buy them.

[wuzafuzz]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why? The reasons I have been given are rather bogus. "Because you don't know if they have already got another plane in the area looking for it". Bogus. ATC can tell me immediately if there are other aircraft nearby and it is almost certain that a CAP plane on a mission will be getting flight following. Also, since I do have the CAP radio on I probably would already know if a mission was on or if another aircraft was up. The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.  Or, "they might need you to land and take on a full aircrew" also bogus because that case would probably need me to alter my destination and for that, I will need contact with someone on the ground.

Private pilot in a private plane?  Do your thing.  You just aren't doing it under the auspices of CAP or with CAP equipment. 

When you joined CAP you agreed to follow CAP's rules.  Just sayin'.

[Eclipse]

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

+1 - he still hasn't answered the question about how long he's been in.
MY guess is that response will be "Why is that relevant?"

The other twist to this is "Where did the CAP radio come from that he's using in the plane?"  Having that doesn't really jive with not being able to
get equipment (issued or member-owned).

I have really nice, compliant radio that I personally own.  It was $175 with 4 batteries, a desktop charger, and 2 antennas. Personal HF-1000's are a dime a dozen around my area.

[N Harmon]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

You do what you want as long as you're not breaking any airspace or TFR rules, not using a "rescue" callsign, and not telling ATC you're Civil Air Patrol. Just realize that you're doing so on your own, and not as a CAP member.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why?

Because CAP aircraft are for official business only, and until a mission is assigned to CAP, the hunting of that ELT is not official business, and you have no business hunting down ELTs with an aircraft that isn't yours (you don't own that plane, the taxpayers do...yada yada). No further reason should be needed.

The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

Agreed. At least not without a check on the attitude.

[CAP4117]

Self-deploying can cause major problems with resources and safety. I actually just took FEMA's ICS-100 last night and they gave the example of private ambulance companies self-deploying on 9/11 and blocking officially deployed ambulances from getting through, just making the whole situation worse.

[MilesDyson]

OK, let me get this straight. If I were a private pilot up flying around in my own plane and hear an ELT, I tell ATC and then ignore it further? I don't think so. If I have the ability I will go see if I can get a better bearing on it, provided ATC agrees with my intentions.

You do what you want as long as you're not breaking any airspace or TFR rules, not using a "rescue" callsign, and not telling ATC you're Civil Air Patrol. Just realize that you're doing so on your own, and not as a CAP member.

But, if I am in the same situation in CAP, I am supposed to report it to ATC and then not do anything further. Why?

Because CAP aircraft are for official business only, and until a mission is assigned to CAP, the hunting of that ELT is not official business, and you have no business hunting down ELTs with an aircraft that isn't yours (you don't own that plane, the taxpayers do...yada yada). No further reason should be needed.

The "no self deploy" argument is totally bogus.

maybe CAP isn't for you as a pilot either

Agreed. At least not without a check on the attitude.

Please cite the regulations. I just scanned 60-1 and 60-3 again and didn't see that.

CAP aircraft are for official use only. Yes, I was on a B17 proficiency flight. So yes, I was using a CAP callsign, but not rescue. So, what, I hear the ELT, report it to ATC and then I can fly in any direction I want, but not towards the ELT?

A very puzzled and frustrated CAP member tonight I am.

[MilesDyson]

Self-deploying can cause major problems with resources and safety. I actually just took FEMA's ICS-100 last night and they gave the example of private ambulance companies self-deploying on 9/11 and blocking officially deployed ambulances from getting through, just making the whole situation worse.

There probably wasn't another airplane within a 20 mile radius at the time. In fact, there was no other CAP plane aloft in the state.

[CAP4117]

I'm not saying that applied to your situation, but that's an example of how self-deploying can put the fundamental objectives at risk. There are many aspects to an incident that you may not be aware of when you self-deploy, and that only complicates the overall response.

[cap235629]

so now you expect a ground team to be on the ground, with the radio on anytime a CAP plane is in the air?  In order to have the privilege of flying a CAP aircraft you agree to abide by the rules.  The rules say you report but DO NOT prosecute the ELT.  What is so hard about this?

What I think you are is arrogant.  You feel you know more about everything than anyone else and feel they are ignorant if they don't do things the way you "know" they should be done.

How long have you been part of the program?

[MilesDyson]

so now you expect a ground team to be on the ground, with the radio on anytime a CAP plane is in the air?  In order to have the privilege of flying a CAP aircraft you agree to abide by the rules.  The rules say you report but DO NOT prosecute the ELT.  What is so hard about this?

What I think you are is arrogant.  You feel you know more about everything than anyone else and feel they are ignorant if they don't do things the way you "know" they should be done.

How long have you been part of the program?

Please cite the regulation. I follow all CAP regs to the letter. Always have.

[Eclipse]

CAP aircraft are for official use only. Yes, I was on a B17 proficiency flight. So yes, I was using a CAP callsign, but not rescue. So, what, I hear the ELT, report it to ATC and then I can fly in any direction I want, but not towards the ELT?

You were on a "CAP callsign" because you were in a CAP plane, not on a CAP mission.

Until and unless you were assigned by a competent authority, with a proper qualified aircrew, you were simply the same as every other GA bus driver burning dinosaurs.  I suppose if you decided to go and fly around something you heard, whatever, your nickel, but you can't start prosecuting a search, or lighting up other assets without authorization.

Are you are qualified mission pilot with a current 91?  If not, you wouldn't even be allowed on the mission you are starting.  And if you are, then you should know the answers to these questions.

[MilesDyson]

so now you expect a ground team to be on the ground, with the radio on anytime a CAP plane is in the air?  In order to have the privilege of flying a CAP aircraft you agree to abide by the rules.  The rules say you report but DO NOT prosecute the ELT.  What is so hard about this?

What I think you are is arrogant.  You feel you know more about everything than anyone else and feel they are ignorant if they don't do things the way you "know" they should be done.

How long have you been part of the program?

What I was HOPING for was a situation where we have CAP member who in the course of their day-to-day lives happen to have their radios on in their cars, in their homes, in case an emergency happened and someone needed to communicate. What is the point of having a CAP radio system that is only monitored if there is a mission going?

[MilesDyson]

CAP aircraft are for official use only. Yes, I was on a B17 proficiency flight. So yes, I was using a CAP callsign, but not rescue. So, what, I hear the ELT, report it to ATC and then I can fly in any direction I want, but not towards the ELT?

You were on a "CAP callsign" because you were in a CAP plane, not on a CAP mission.

Until and unless you were assigned by a competent authority, with a proper qualified aircrew, you were simply the same as every other GA bus driver burning dinosaurs.  I suppose if you decided to go and fly around something you heard, whatever, your nickel, but you can't start prosecuting a search, or lighting up other assets without authorization.

Are you are qualified mission pilot with a current 91?  If not, you wouldn't even be allowed on the mission you are starting.  And if you are, then you should know the answers to these questions.

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

[cap235629]

all wing commanders were instructed by NHQ as to what should be done when a signal is heard.  They in turn issued policy letters.  If you tell me your real name and what wing you are in I can provide you with further guidance.  There is not a Miles Dyson in CAP according to the records at NHQ.

[Eclipse]

What I was HOPING for was a situation where we have CAP member who in the course of their day-to-day lives happen to have their radios on in their cars, in their homes, in case an emergency happened and someone needed to communicate. What is the point of having a CAP radio system that is only monitored if there is a mission going?

Again, a fundamental misunderstanding of CAP's role and mission.

CAP is not a roving, ad-hoc, first-responder organization.  We are professionalized secondary and tertiary support organization with a very specific process and procedure to our response, which generally includes vetting by the USAF (who pays most of the bills).

If you come upon an emergency in the course of your normal life, you pick up your cell phone and dial 9-1-1. Period.

Your second misunderstanding is that CAP has a radio "system".  It does not, and is not charged with that mission.  What we have are specific
resources in place for use in specific circumstances, and those circumstances do not include emergency first response.

There may well have been a time that CAP was, or at least believed itself to be, charged with providing a national-level backup communications system.
That day is well past, and while it may come again at some point, it won't be tomorrow.

If you are carrying a CAP radio around and expecting to be able to use it 24x7 to dispatch tow trucks and ambulances, one has to wonder
what comm classes you attended, and where you got your CAP operator's license.

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation.

If you really are a CAP pilot and communicator with 5 years in, that question is so ridiculous as to not deserve a response.

[cap235629]

so now you expect a ground team to be on the ground, with the radio on anytime a CAP plane is in the air?  In order to have the privilege of flying a CAP aircraft you agree to abide by the rules.  The rules say you report but DO NOT prosecute the ELT.  What is so hard about this?

What I think you are is arrogant.  You feel you know more about everything than anyone else and feel they are ignorant if they don't do things the way you "know" they should be done.

How long have you been part of the program?

What I was HOPING for was a situation where we have CAP member who in the course of their day-to-day lives happen to have their radios on in their cars, in their homes, in case an emergency happened and someone needed to communicate. What is the point of having a CAP radio system that is only monitored if there is a mission going?

Once again you fail to grasp what the radios are for.  We do not drive around with radios on like a HAM does.  The radios are for the support of our missions.  The purpose is to support missions AS TASKED, not drive around self deploying.

[Eclipse]

Bill - Miles Dyson is the guy credited with creating Skynet.

[N Harmon]

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

CAPR 60-3 1-16(d)(3):
Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via
phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight
Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate.
Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and
released the crew accordingly.

Being released on a B17 is not a proper release for a SAR mission.

[cap235629]

Bill - Miles Dyson is the guy credited with creating Skynet.

Hence the give me your real name part of my comment.  I guess I missed the Terminator reference.

[wuzafuzz]

What I was HOPING for was a situation where we have CAP member who in the course of their day-to-day lives happen to have their radios on in their cars, in their homes, in case an emergency happened and someone needed to communicate.

Good Lord, people have LIVES!  I am very active in CAP Comm, but I go to work, attend meetings, go to the doctor, and even sleep once in a while.  I listen to the radio a lot but since CAP doesn't pay us to do so there will be gaps.

What is the point of having a CAP radio system that is only monitored if there is a mission going?

Oh I don't know...maybe to SUPPORT CAP MISSIONS?  Just a wild guess here.      The system is not intended for rag chewing when there is no mission or activity.  It is stood up as needed, and many of us come running when there is a need.

This should all be pretty obvious to an experienced member.  Spare us the adult hissy fit and TRY to ask some reasonable questions.  Until then...I'm out.

[MilesDyson]

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

CAPR 60-3 1-16(d)(3):
Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via
phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight
Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate.
Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and
released the crew accordingly.

Still, pilot flying solo in a CAP plane hears an ELT. He informs ATC. Now what?

Being released on a B17 is not a proper release for a SAR mission.

Thank you. I am looking that up now.

[Eclipse]

"B17" is a mission symbol, not a mission number, the difference is not a nuance.

[N Harmon]

"B17" is a mission symbol, not a mission number, the difference is not a nuance.

Right, the biggest difference being missions like B17s are approved by CAP-USAF whereas SAR missions are approved by AFRCC/JRCC.

[MilesDyson]

OK. Pilot is in the air and hears an ELT. He follows orders and reports it to ATC and then continues on his way cross country 200 miles away from the ELT's actual location. ATC contacts AFRCC and in due course, AFRCC assigns a mission to hunt the ELT. An IC is assigned and begins the task of organizing a search. Hours go by and aircrews are dispatched. After some more hours, the ELT is located in the smoldering wreck of an airplane. The occupants are barely alive still, but die upon arrival at the hospital. It turns out that the location of the wreckage is almost directly below where the first pilot had heard the signal. The news media check into the story and find out the details of the incident from FlightAware or other sources, and then begin asking, "Why didn't the first CAP plane try and get a better fix on the signal before leaving the area? Might these people still be alive if the CAP plane had done it's job?"

I guess that's why we have PAOs...

[MilesDyson]

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

CAPR 60-3 1-16(d)(3):
Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via
phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight
Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate.
Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and
released the crew accordingly.

Still, pilot flying solo in a CAP plane hears an ELT. He informs ATC. Now what?

Being released on a B17 is not a proper release for a SAR mission.

Thank you. I am looking that up now.

And I don't think it is clear from this section (which is talking about how to conduct a mission) that trying to get a bearing on an ELT while reporting it is a violation.

[cap235629]

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

CAPR 60-3 1-16(d)(3):
Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via
phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight
Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate.
Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and
released the crew accordingly.

Still, pilot flying solo in a CAP plane hears an ELT. He informs ATC. Now what?

Being released on a B17 is not a proper release for a SAR mission.

Thank you. I am looking that up now.

And I don't think it is clear from this section (which is talking about how to conduct a mission) that trying to get a bearing on an ELT while reporting it is a violation.

So now you are "Just getting a bearing" a minute ago you were trying to contact ground units to prosecute the signal.  Which is it?

[Eclipse]

"Why didn't the first CAP plane try and get a better fix on the signal before leaving the area? Might these people still be alive if the CAP plane had done it's job?"

"Because at the time the CAP aircraft believed they heard a signal, the crew was not qualified, nor authorized, to prosecute the mission."

Chasing an ELT in a CAP aircraft is SAR.

SAR requires authorization from the USAF, or at a minimum a corporate officer.

Hearing an ELT does not equal a mission.

One of the differences between CAP and organizations which charge themselves as "similar" is that we follow the rules of our organization, and that protects our members.

In nearly all cases, a qualified crew is required to chase an ELT, not just a pilot.   A lone pilot, without a crew, chasing an ELT, is a potential danger to himself and others as he is not paying full attention to driving the bus.

If you are a qualified mission pilot, or even a trainee, you already know this.

[MilesDyson]

Again, please cite the "no self deploy" regulation. Really, if I missed it I want to fix that here and now. And show how simply remaining in the air circling on a B17 flight while trying to DF the signal from my current location is a violation of that regulation. Really, I want to know.

CAPR 60-3 1-16(d)(3):
Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via
phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight
Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate.
Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and
released the crew accordingly.

Still, pilot flying solo in a CAP plane hears an ELT. He informs ATC. Now what?

Being released on a B17 is not a proper release for a SAR mission.

Thank you. I am looking that up now.

And I don't think it is clear from this section (which is talking about how to conduct a mission) that trying to get a bearing on an ELT while reporting it is a violation.

So now you are "Just getting a bearing" a minute ago you were trying to contact ground units to prosecute the signal.  Which is it?

You decided I was trying to get ground units to go look. That is not what I was doing.

In fact, I was trying to get ahold of some ground unit to make a phone call to wing or AFRCC whatever. I was specifically calling a commander to get direction. I cannot believe that it would be a bad idea to call on the CAP radio to get in touch with the appropriate CAP authority to discuss what I should do.

[Eclipse]

Direct question.

Are you a mission pilot or do you hold any ES quals at all?

[MilesDyson]

"Why didn't the first CAP plane try and get a better fix on the signal before leaving the area? Might these people still be alive if the CAP plane had done it's job?"

"Because at the time the CAP aircraft believed they heard a signal, the crew was not qualified, nor authorized, to prosecute the mission."

Chasing an ELT in a CAP aircraft is SAR.

SAR requires authorization from the USAF, or at a minimum a corporate officer.

Hearing an ELT does not equal a mission.

One of the differences between CAP and organizations which charge themselves as "similar" is that we follow the rules of our organization, and that protects our members.

In nearly all cases, a qualified crew is required to chase an ELT, not just a pilot.   A lone pilot, without a crew, chasing an ELT, is a potential danger to himself and others as he is not paying full attention to driving the bus.

If yo are a qualified mission pilot, or even a trainee, you already know this.

"So Captain Eclipse, you are saying that your pilot, who was directly over the people who were trapped in the burning wreckage, continued on to his training flight 200 miles away simply because he didn't have the correct paperwork?"

[MilesDyson]

No, I am completely pulling your leg and wasting your time. I am not a pilot. I am not even in CAP. In fact, it is getting light outside and I have to get up and go to work in Belgrade.

[Eclipse]

"So Captain Eclipse, you are saying that your pilot, who was directly over the people who were trapped in the burning wreckage, continued on to his training flight 200 miles away simply because he didn't have the correct paperwork?"

No, if you are over burning wreckage, you would report it to ATC, who would roll local EMS and you would then leave the area.  An aircraft that is visible and burning is not..."lost"...therefore CAP would not..."search"...for it, nor would they generally be involved in any way.

I am not a pilot. I am not even in CAP.

OK, glad we cleared that up, because the above would really be the only explanation for your lack of understanding of the basic SOP for CAP operations.

[MilesDyson]

"So Captain Eclipse, you are saying that your pilot, who was within just a few miles of the people who were trapped in the burning wreckage, continued on to his training flight 200 miles away simply because he didn't have the correct paperwork? Those people suffered for hours before being found even though your airplane was close by and could have helped locate them hours sooner?"

[Eclipse]

Yes.

[MilesDyson]

No, if you are over burning wreckage, you would report it to ATC, who would roll local EMS and you would then leave the area.  An aircraft that is visible and burning is not..."lost"...therefore CAP would not..."search"...for it, nor would they generally be involved in any way.

Oh, you haven't spent much time up north. A crash in the forest miles from a road nearest FD 20 miles away, less than five miles visibility in haze, oh that burning plane is lost.

[Eclipse]

You've got emergency lights on your personal vehicle, don't you?

[cap235629]

You've got emergency lights on your personal vehicle, don't you?

Be careful I resemble that comment!

I am also a responder for another agency though!

[DH]

I will probably regret getting into this. I was hoping this was somone truly interested in making a positive contribution to COMM but instead they may have done much to harm the program in the eyes of many who may read the postings, especially new or prospective members. The COMM program has much to offer in it's design, but there are many who while understanding there are limitations in other areas, cannot accept the role the program is currently geared for.  Just as a note to pilots, in our Wing we encourage pilots to make prior contact with known radio operators (IC's, Relay stations, etc.) to monitior while they are in the air. It provides opportunities to train with the radios, provides a means of passing information, and may provide an additional safety net for the pilot. Our pilots are encouraged to monitor a wide area repeater also while airborne. There have been several cases when we have had a qualified air crew in the air on a proficiency flight that have been tasked to a mission. It's all about preparation and planning. There's nothing wrong with inviting a MS or MO to fly along with you for company when on a proficiency flight. You never know. Wow, what a concept, a marriage between flight and comm proficency.

[SarDragon]

Here's some closing traffic from a recent mission, sanitized.

AFRCC search mission 11M[xxx] was opened on 21 Aug and closed 22 Aug as a resulted of detection of a 121.5 ELT signal by a CAP aircraft already airborne on a proficency flight. CAP [xxx] tracked the signal to the [local] airport, landed, teamed up with a UDF crew and DF'ed the signal to a private hangar.

Non-distress finds authorized for Aircrew [member A] and [member B] and UDF team [member A] and [member B].

Details.
After calling in the distress signal¹ [Aircrew member A] and [Aircrew member B] remained airborne untill AFRCC could be contacted and a mission # assigned². They are both from [unit], and were flying CAP [xxx] from [unit]. After landing they were joined by [UDF team member A] and [UDF team member B] and worked together to locate the signal. Even though the hangar seemed occupied they could not gain anyone's attention. The [local] PD was called to the location and also could not get anyone to come to the door, and were not able to enter the hangar. A follow up was conducted the next morning and the signal had ceased.

That's exactly the way it was supposed to be done.

1. Notify someone - ATC, another CAP member, AFRCC directly if necessary.

2. Stayed in the area, but didn't self deploy, i.e. start looking for the ELT until the proper time.

This isn't rocket surgery. The rules in place for a reason, and they aren't that hard to follow.

[N Harmon]

In fact, I was trying to get ahold of some ground unit to make a phone call to wing or AFRCC whatever.

No need to. There is a representative from the FAA a few desks back from the AFRCC console at Tyndall AFB. Chances are good that your ELT report to ATC will be relayed to AFRCC before anyone on the ground can dial the number.

The point being: We have a procedure for this; You notify ATC. They, in turn, notify AFRCC, and maybe contact other aircraft in the area to see if they are hearing it. AFRCC launches a mission only after confirmation of a signal and/or an existing missing aircraft case. The process sounds a lot more drawn out than it really is, and the decision is made quickly enough that a CAP aircraft can be re-tasked appropriately while still in the air.

[MilesDyson]

Here's some closing traffic from a recent mission, sanitized.

AFRCC search mission 11M[xxx] was opened on 21 Aug and closed 22 Aug as a resulted of detection of a 121.5 ELT signal by a CAP aircraft already airborne on a proficency flight. CAP [xxx] tracked the signal to the [local] airport, landed, teamed up with a UDF crew and DF'ed the signal to a private hangar.

Non-distress finds authorized for Aircrew [member A] and [member B] and UDF team [member A] and [member B].

Details.
After calling in the distress signal¹ [Aircrew member A] and [Aircrew member B] remained airborne untill AFRCC could be contacted and a mission # assigned². They are both from [unit], and were flying CAP [xxx] from [unit]. After landing they were joined by [UDF team member A] and [UDF team member B] and worked together to locate the signal. Even though the hangar seemed occupied they could not gain anyone's attention. The [local] PD was called to the location and also could not get anyone to come to the door, and were not able to enter the hangar. A follow up was conducted the next morning and the signal had ceased.

That's exactly the way it was supposed to be done.

1. Notify someone - ATC, another CAP member, AFRCC directly if necessary.

2. Stayed in the area, but didn't self deploy, i.e. start looking for the ELT until the proper time.

This isn't rocket surgery. The rules in place for a reason, and they aren't that hard to follow.

Sigh. That's what I love about internet forums - the knee-jerk judgmental opinions one gets by people who didn't take the time to find out the details before rendering their opinions.

What part of this does anyone claim I violated? I heard an ELT. I had 2 1/2 hours of fuel available beyond reserves. I notified ATC. I remained aloft orbiting the area at about 8000 feet. I contacted a ground station, who later turned out to be the IC. He contacted the Wing commander who gave authorization for me to try and get a bearing while the IC organized ground units to go check local airports. I was then directed to land and consult with the IC, who was happy that I had done as I had done. I was then requested to check an airport 50 miles away where an aircraft was overdue. I did, nothing was found and the incident was closed. I went home after 6 hours of flying that day. Would someone please tell me how it is that I don't fit in with CAP as a pilot?

[MilesDyson]

So I am arrogant person who does not understand anything about CAP and who should not even be a pilot in CAP. Wow. I sure am glad I stopped lurking on Captalk and started posting! Thanks fellow CAP members!

[Persona non grata]

Grow up, its only the virtual world here not the real one.   

[MilesDyson]

Grow up, its only the virtual world here not the real one.

Oh so in the virtual world CAP members don't have to be polite to each other. I get it.

[Mark_Wheeler]

Here's some closing traffic from a recent mission, sanitized.

AFRCC search mission 11M[xxx] was opened on 21 Aug and closed 22 Aug as a resulted of detection of a 121.5 ELT signal by a CAP aircraft already airborne on a proficency flight. CAP [xxx] tracked the signal to the [local] airport, landed, teamed up with a UDF crew and DF'ed the signal to a private hangar.

Non-distress finds authorized for Aircrew [member A] and [member B] and UDF team [member A] and [member B].

Details.
After calling in the distress signal¹ [Aircrew member A] and [Aircrew member B] remained airborne untill AFRCC could be contacted and a mission # assigned². They are both from [unit], and were flying CAP [xxx] from [unit]. After landing they were joined by [UDF team member A] and [UDF team member B] and worked together to locate the signal. Even though the hangar seemed occupied they could not gain anyone's attention. The [local] PD was called to the location and also could not get anyone to come to the door, and were not able to enter the hangar. A follow up was conducted the next morning and the signal had ceased.

That's exactly the way it was supposed to be done.

1. Notify someone - ATC, another CAP member, AFRCC directly if necessary.

2. Stayed in the area, but didn't self deploy, i.e. start looking for the ELT until the proper time.

This isn't rocket surgery. The rules in place for a reason, and they aren't that hard to follow.

Miles,
In that closing traffic, I'm the one that got the call. I was sitting on my computer at home and I had my personally purchased NTIA compliant ICOM radio next to me on the local repeater. Out of the blue I hear " Any Station this is CAP4XX" And I of course pick it up and ask what I can do to be of assistance. They report hearing the ELT in the vicinity of a major VOR in Southern California at a mid-level altitude and that the bearing as it was on the becker was 290. I reminded them not to DF the signal and I would contact an IC and open a mission. I then called the Wing Alerting Officer, whom advised me to contact an IC. The IC then called the alerting officer and opened the mission with AFRCC. I continued to act as relay (I'm a CUL) as the IC was geographically separated from the repeater. Then in a matter of 15 minutes the aircrew had found that the signal was on airport and we proceeded from there. It was under an hour from my first call to the ELT being identified at an airport.

Mark

[MilesDyson]

Hey everyone! I hear an ELT but I'm not looking for it! Someone may be in trouble but I'm not doing anything!

[Mark_Wheeler]

Why don't you just make a couple of calls up your chain of command and go from there?

Mark

[davidsinn]

Hey everyone! I hear an ELT but I'm not looking for it! Someone may be in trouble but I'm not doing anything!

Then you're an idiot. You've already been told that you should contact ATC and let them handle it. If you want to be a cowboy on your own time and dime in your own aircraft, fine. But when you joined CAP and signed out the aircraft you agreed to follow the rules. If you can't do that then find a new way to spend your time.

[Eclipse]

So I am arrogant person who does not understand anything about CAP and who should not even be a pilot in CAP.

Based soley on what you have been posting and asking?  Sounds about right.

[Larry Mangum]

So what post got him suspended?

[Eclipse]

Honestly, pick one. 

There's no way anyone in CAP with 5 years in and professing to be a pilot and a communicator could be that uninformed or misinformed about our operations.  He is / was pretending to ask day-1 questions that are covered in GES.

[AirDX]

I don't suppose the mods could just scrub this entire topic.  Perfectly innocent people could google their way in here looking to get involved in CAP commo, and based in this thread, decide we're a bunch of idots and run, not walk, away.

[a2capt]

The same could be said for about half of what is on the internet, too.

[Buzz]

Honestly, pick one. 

There's no way anyone in CAP with 5 years in and professing to be a pilot and a communicator could be that uninformed or misinformed about our operations.  He is / was pretending to ask day-1 questions that covered in GES.

Maybe Wal-Mart has a new computer game: "SAR Hero" . . ?

[ol'fido]

 "I want to be a Rescue Ranger, I want to live a life of danger....."

[BillB]

Looks like Dyson was given incorrect information., Big deal made of corporate radios and very little mention made of NITA compliant personal radios. How many have bought NITA compliant Motorola hand helds to replace the old Vertex-150's? Most ham radios doi not meet the compliant requirements, but many hams have commercial radios that do. But people in this thread talked only of corporate issued radios, wheras many members have purchased NITA compliant radios for CAP use.

[a2capt]

"Dyson" ... LOL - tit for tat. Whoever that is came in giving false information, too.

[SarDragon]

Looks like Dyson was given incorrect information., Big deal made of corporate radios and very little mention made of NITA compliant personal radios. How many have bought NITA compliant Motorola hand helds to replace the old Vertex-150's? Most ham radios doi not meet the compliant requirements, but many hams have commercial radios that do. But people in this thread talked only of corporate issued radios, wheras many members have purchased NITA compliant radios for CAP use.

There were at lease two people that pointed out issued radios vs. compliant radios, myself and wuzzafuzz.

[Gordon F Johnson]

Using moderator privileges to ban someone from a forum is a cowardly way to win an argument.

[davidsinn]

Using moderator privileges to ban someone from a forum is a cowardly way to win an argument.

Not a single person with those privileges posted in this topic...

[N Harmon]

Another thing a person who is well-versed in radio can do in CAP Comms?

Teach people how to talk on radios.

You don't even need a CAP radio to do it. You can do it with cheap FRS handhelds. Teach them how to initiate and end conversations, how to send and receive map coordinates, how to pass traffic, how to check in and out of nets. The list goes on.

The point is that there is a TON of stuff that a person can do in CAP Comms that does not involve the Civil Air Patrol giving him/her a new toy^H^H^Hradio to take home to their shack.

I am a licensed amateur radio operator. But I have got to tell you that a lot of the skills that make a successful CAP Communications Officer are not on the FCC exams.