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"CAP, Get lost or die trying"

Started by cachambliss, June 07, 2010, 11:11:50 am

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cachambliss

This IS NOT a blast towards CAP.  This is copied as I recieved it from a friend in Alaska.    This is the perception of a pilot towards the CAP.  Guys my point is that as long as the CAP suffers from impressions such as this, as long as the CAP is viewed as a 'Good Ol Boy Semi-Private Flying Club' As long as CAP is referred to as Crazy Assed Pilots, then our work is not done and we must do more to present a professional image and train and act professionally.  Here are my friends comments:

SUPPORT THE CAP - GET LOST OR DIE TRYING

The Anchorage, AK CAP were conducting float plane instruction on Figure 8 Lake. 
They started doing cross-wind T/O and landings. I heard about 10kts.  from a CAP member.
I guess it didn't go very well for them. There were 3 people on board and after the
aircraft flipped on its back they were able to egress safely. A Cessna 185 float plane
saw them upside down and landed. The pilot flew them back to Lake Hood seaplane base.
They said there were wet and cold. Do you think?

During Feb of 2009 the CAP lost another Beaver on Skis. They were on a training
flight and taking off from a frozen lake and didn't seem to clear the trees.

NTSB Documents attached and Pics of the float plane.

I think if I went down I would want the Coast Guard to come looking for me.

Now, before some wag blames this on improper uniforms, please, lets look at the bigger picture of CAP Perceptions to the public, and lets work on Professionalism.

Professionalism is an attitude, not a job.

For the Record:  My friend is not a low time Private Pilot, but is an ATP, has several thousand hours PIC, is a Senior Air Force Official. 

RiverAux

What is your point?  Yes, there were two accidents, but as far as I know, they haven't been blamed on a lack of professionalism on the part of the CAP aircrews involved.  Accidents happen to everybody in training.  Is this "senior Air Force official" recommending that we have the Canadian Air Force support our military since the US Air Force has accidents?

JoeTomasone

A Blackhawk from the base I'm on went down a few months back at a nearby base on landing.   All aboard were killed.    Were they less professional because there were fatalities?

I think your friend needs a beating with the reality stick.


capchiro

In my over 30 years of CAP experience, I have never heard CAP referred to as Crazy Ass Pilots.  Considering our lack of pay, I think we are usually very professional.  I do like how your buddy compared us to the Coast Guard, a well paid, dedicated, heroic bunch of full time men and ladies, and not to the CGAUX..  I think his comparison alone notes our level of professionalism..  If I had my druthers, I would rather the Coast Guard come for me than CAP because of their resources (plus, we don't have really cool para-rescue swimmers)..
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

RiverAux

Yeah, them dumb Alaska CAP members only save about a dozen people a year.  Might as well get rid of them. 

NIN

June 07, 2010, 01:27:38 pm #5 Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 02:31:46 pm by MIKE
Its not like an accident is prima facia evidence of a crappy organization. Otherwise, the AF would have folded its tent up years ago.

The "friend" cites the Beaver that flipped over on Figure 8 Lake and then goes on to say "I heard about 10kts. from a CAP member."  Is that 10kts of crosswind? They got the plane up to 10 kts?  What is this guy referring to?  Its not clear, and by being unclear leaves it as an exercise to the reader to ascertain what he's talking about.  And by being vague, it makes it seem like he's casting aspersions upon the pilot's ability to fly the airplane in "about 10kts" (again, 10kts of _what_? Head winds?  Cross winds?  Airspeed?), which is, of course, something they teach on the first day of pilot school, right?

You can be a "senior air force official" and not know dick about float planes.  Hell, I know F-15 jocks who now fly big iron and you ask them to get into a 182 and its like asking Mario Andretti to drive his wife's station wagon.

Each of those accidents shows that CAP is out there, training, qualifying pilots, etc.  In the course of "doing" there is likely to be some "bending" now and again.  Nature of the beast.

But calling into question the effectiveness of the entire organization on the basis of a couple guys flipping a Beaver over, thats just juvenile.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

vmstan

Right, because the AF never has accidents or acts in an unprofessional manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident

Maybe the Coast Guard should be in control of our nuclear arsenal as well.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

cachambliss

Guys,
  The very first words I wrote were "This is not a blast towards CAP".  Nor did I say I agreed (or not)( with what my friend had to say.   

OK, So what was my point? ---> Perceptions. 
   Some people comment on how few people really know about the CAP and how much misunderstanding there is about the organization.  There are others who view the CAP as a collection of quasi-military wannabes.  There are other who percieve the CAP as Good Old Boy Clubs.    My point was we need to do more to correct and beat back the negative perceptions.
Hence my ending comments on professionalism.

snoopy1894

Quote from: capchiro on June 07, 2010, 12:56:51 pm
In my over 30 years of CAP experience, I have never heard CAP referred to as Crazy Ass Pilots.  Considering our lack of pay, I think we are usually very professional.  I do like how your buddy compared us to the Coast Guard, a well paid, dedicated, heroic bunch of full time men and ladies, and not to the CGAUX..  I think his comparison alone notes our level of professionalism..  If I had my druthers, I would rather the Coast Guard come for me than CAP because of their resources (plus, we don't have really cool para-rescue swimmers)..

pararescuemen are air force, i think your thinking of coast guard aviation survival technicians, aka  "rescue swimmers"  ;)

ZigZag911

If your "friend" is a senior Air Force official, I hope that while on duty he does not base crucial decisions on limited, anecdotal information...talk about a lack of objectivity!

lordmonar

We do training in order to do the mission....and sometimes things happen.....that's why we train.

If the Big Time ATP pilot thinks he is better off with the Coast Guard....maybe he should look at their training acciednt record.

Or better yet....maybe join CAP and help bring up out "proffessionalism" up to his expected standards.

While you are at it...ask him if he files flight planes each and every flight...if he has upgraded to the 406 ELT and if his surivial kit up up to date.

As was stated....two accidents in training do not make for a bad orginsation.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

cachambliss

CAN ANYONE HERE READ ANYTHING OTHER THAN THEIR PRE-CONCEIVED OPINIONS?

OK, So what was my point? ---> Perceptions. 

Visiting this site for only a few weeks, I have developed some rather strong perceptions and not many would be very flattering to many of the people here. 

Note:  Not every comment counter to 'your' thought is a personal attack.   

When I first found this site I thought it could be a real resource - A platform for debate and a medium of how we could do things better.  I was wrong, I apologise.

Moderator, Please delete my account as I see no useful purpose in returning here


Eagle400

Holy [mess], I could tell this would be an explosive topic just from the name!

I did not read through the dialogue above, and I don't need to... This one will get a lock within the next 48 hours -- guaranteed. 

...Unless it is taken to PM, where it belongs. 

:-\


JC004


lordmonar

Quote from: cachambliss on June 07, 2010, 04:23:32 pm
Guys,
  The very first words I wrote were "This is not a blast towards CAP".  Nor did I say I agreed (or not)( with what my friend had to say.   

OK, So what was my point? ---> Perceptions. 
   Some people comment on how few people really know about the CAP and how much misunderstanding there is about the organization.  There are others who view the CAP as a collection of quasi-military wannabes.  There are other who percieve the CAP as Good Old Boy Clubs.    My point was we need to do more to correct and beat back the negative perceptions.
Hence my ending comments on professionalism.

You can fight bone headedness all day and never make any progress.

Don't waste your time.  Do the best job you can....put presure on your peers and leadership to make sure others are doing the best job they can and ignore the bone heads who will draw what ever conclustions they want from isolated cases of aircraft accidents.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

vmstan

Quote from: cachambliss on June 07, 2010, 04:23:32 pm
Guys,
  The very first words I wrote were "This is not a blast towards CAP".  Nor did I say I agreed (or not)( with what my friend had to say.   

OK, So what was my point? ---> Perceptions. 
   Some people comment on how few people really know about the CAP and how much misunderstanding there is about the organization.  There are others who view the CAP as a collection of quasi-military wannabes.  There are other who percieve the CAP as Good Old Boy Clubs.    My point was we need to do more to correct and beat back the negative perceptions.
Hence my ending comments on professionalism.


We're not going against you, we're going against what your friend had to say. What was the purpose in posting it unless you wanted us to post our disagreement? Obviously it wasn't to provide an objective critique.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

N Harmon

Quote from: cachambliss on June 07, 2010, 06:20:54 pmWhen I first found this site I thought it could be a real resource - A platform for debate and a medium of how we could do things better.  I was wrong, I apologise.


Tell me, how does posting secondhand scuttlebut about what some "Senior Air Force Official" thinks about the Civil Air Patrol based on his impressions of some accident involving our fellow members...help us do things better?

It is really easy to talk a big game about professionalism by throwing out slogans like "Professionalism is an attitude, not a job"... But when it comes to practical advice for a variety of situations, that is where experience comes into play.

Do you have that kind of experience? If so then why aren't you cranking out that sort of practical advice instead of stirring things up? If you have to post a disclaimer that such is "NOT a blast against CAP"...maybe you should think twice about the reasons you're posting it.

By the way, "Senior Air Force Official" would be the SECAF or someone who wears a star. I find it hard to believe such a person would craft such an ignorant view of Civil Air Patrol, but whatever.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron