Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?

Started by skymaster, November 16, 2011, 12:09:29 AM

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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 17, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
What you are suggesting, too, would roll us back into how the Air Force employed/used the CAP back in the 1950s and early 1960s. Old timers might remember that the Continental Air Command once served as an umbrella for us, the Air Guard and the Reserve. We were much closer to the Air Force then.

That is EXACTLY what I am saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Air_Command

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 17, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
But with all this anti-Air Force Auxiliary stuff that has actually severely fractured our organization over the last decade or so, it caused a lot of State Guard organizations to form or futher develop their own aviation organizations that serve as reserves to the Air Guard.

There aren't as many of those as you might think.

Two of them that I know of were disbanded (New York, Indiana) non-flying units.

The only active ones I know of right now are in Texas, California and Oregon, all of which have a non-flying mission of backfilling Air Guard units in those states when the Air Guard is Federalised.  The only one I know of with a mission similar to CAP is one in Virginia organised along Army Aviation lines.  Ohio has an active Naval Militia commanded by a retired Marine.

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 17, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
I just think it's sad because the anti-Auxilary philosophy gained so much momentum, where there seems to be such a lack of discipline and committment to standards, that we now have so many senior members who treat this organization more as a social club or fraternity and we have cadets who are better disciplined or motivated than the adults who lead them. It needs to change.

Agreed wholeheartedly.  When I first joined ('93), we formed up in the drill hall of the Armed Forces Reserve facility and customs and courtesies were not "optional" as they too often are now.

Our commander, a Lt Col, isn't saluted now by much of the membership when he should be and senior officers who report to him are more like "yeah, whaddaya need, Joe (not his name)?" rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Quote from: flyboy1 on November 17, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
You volunteer to join an organization like this, you need to accept personal responsibility to do what is called of you....it demonstrates that we can be trusted players. Without it, I can see why the Air Force may have begun to question our usefulness in the grand scheme of things.

Especially when the AF reads comments like many of those here who are openly anti-Air Force Auxiliary.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

ZigZag911

USCG is so much smaller and resource strapped than USAF; consequently CG needs and appreciates the augmentation of AUX members.

While it would be very nice, I don't think it's a realistic possibility that we'd ever have that close a working relationship with USAF.

In spite of Ma Blue's occasionally aloof attitude toward us, I too sincerely hope we remain the Air Force Auxiliary.

KT

Quote from: CyBorg on November 17, 2011, 07:21:48 PM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.

lordmonar

Quote from: KT on November 17, 2011, 10:43:32 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 17, 2011, 07:21:48 PM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.
+1

Knock, Knock....hey boss I need you to sign something.....okay Pat....let me see it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Hardshell Clam

Quote from: davidsinn on November 16, 2011, 05:28:01 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 05:06:31 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on November 16, 2011, 05:03:00 AM
Our squadron recently hosted a NASAR class and one of the local Emergency Managers made a comment that the BBDU's looked really sharp and professional.  I personally think such a remark was very complimentary and should make people pause and ask why camouflage is so important especially considering the fact that ANSI class II vests are now required.

I agree. At least in the blue, the tapes, etc match. The camos look funny with the "blue trim".
Actually, they look worse on the BBDU. They clash because they are not complimentary shades. The BDU looks ok at best with them. I would much prefer it if my uniform was at least uniformly blue...

We can agree to disagee, as I like 'em on the blues myself :)

LGM30GMCC

Quote from: lordmonar on November 17, 2011, 10:52:38 PM
Quote from: KT on November 17, 2011, 10:43:32 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on November 17, 2011, 07:21:48 PM
rather than "Sir, Lieutenant Goldbar reports as ordered."

Unless you were in trouble I think even in the AD AF you would probably get a blank stare from the commander if you did that.
+1

Knock, Knock....hey boss I need you to sign something.....okay Pat....let me see it.

We start to stand up, or manage to stand up in the office when our CC  walks in and he he motions for us to sit down. Or if we are standing there he just tells us 'Sit, sit sit,' or 'Sit down' and such.(granted we consist of a bunch of missileer 1Lts and Capts)

If I need to talk to him it's a knock on the door

"Sir, X Y and Z just happened and we are looking at doing A B and C" "Cool...do that."

While you are respectful and use Customs and Courtesies it is RARE to see someone report in. The exception is service dress. If you see someone in service dress day to day it usually means either A) they really screwed up or B) they are really awesome.

Customs and Courtesies are all about respect. They are not supposed to be this SUPERHARDCORE ZOMG YOU ARE AWESOME I'M NOT WORTHY TO BREATHE THE SAME AIR.

Nolan Teel


jimmydeanno

If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: LGM30GMCC on November 18, 2011, 12:38:47 AM
Customs and Courtesies are all about respect. They are not supposed to be this SUPERHARDCORE ZOMG YOU ARE AWESOME I'M NOT WORTHY TO BREATHE THE SAME AIR.

I never intended it that way.

Back when I first joined CAP in 1993, my then-squadron really did do stuff like come to attention when a senior officer entered the room.

Also back then, cadets who would be walking down a hallway would stop and say "Sir/Ma'am, permission to pass" before walking past you.  That took some getting used to.

Things have changed...a lot.  The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction; there's not much of a "happy medium" any more.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Larry Mangum

So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

jimmydeanno

Yep, and the only person that an office comes to attention for in my wife's unit is the squadron commander (or higher commander).  Considering the open nature of most work centers nowadays (cubicle farms) it would be impractical for them to come to attention, every time an officer walked in the room, considering that the office will have 3 of them sitting right in the middle.  It might be a little easier if the environment was more conducive to having the officers segregated.

In a CAP context, I don't necessarily come to attention when someone enters my office, but I certainly stand up to greet the person that enters (Parents, grandparents, potential members).  There are two other people in my office area, though, and they'd be coming to attention every 15 seconds on any given night.


It's just important to remember that customs and courtesies aren't so much about the "rule" aspect of what they represent, but the attempt at showing respect to the person you're doing them for.  If you are a generally polite and respectful person, you do 90% of the stuff in the regulation in the first place.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PMSo why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?

Enhanced enjoyment of too many movies?

"That Others May Zoom"

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 18, 2011, 03:55:53 PM
It's just important to remember that customs and courtesies aren't so much about the "rule" aspect of what they represent, but the attempt at showing respect to the person you're doing them for.  If you are a generally polite and respectful person, you do 90% of the stuff in the regulation in the first place.

And it should not interfere with the mission getting done. We don't call a class in session to attention. Only the leader of a work party salutes. If 2nd Lt. Newbee is deep in getting the personnel files up to spec, let him/her work.

Ned

Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   

Not very strange when you consider that Air Force cadets brace and come to attention when an officer passes.  At least they did the last time I visited the Academy last year.  And AFROTC cadets have a similarly high customs and courtesies requirement.

And the last time I visted Lackland, I saw that the BMT trainees also were expected to exhibit a high level of customs and courtesies.  And although I haven't been to an AF tech school, I am given to understand that the airmen still have formations, do some marching, and are held to a fairly high customs and courtesies standard.  Less that BMT, I suppose, but higher than they will be held to when they arrive at their operational unit as trained airmen.

Why?

I suspect it has something to do with the military training method successfully used by every military in the world since the first Legionnaire was disciplined by a centurion.  Trainees have always been held to a higher standard while they are learning military and other new skills.

CAP cadets continue this long and successful tradition.  Cadets - by definition - are students.  They are learning leadership, getting an aerospace education, getting in shape, and developing their character as part of the Cadet Program.  And our training method uses some military aspects to challenge and develop our cadets.

Which includes a high level of military customs and courtesies.  Like standing when an officer comes into the room.  Saluting smartly when appropriate.  And addressing seniors as "Ma'am" or "Sir" as appropriate.

etc

I'm still pretty new but have noticed how stringently customs and courtesies are enforced in the cadet program. I try to do the same as much as possible. To be it seems a bit hypocritical to not.

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: LTC Don on November 16, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
This isn't about CAP being cut from the budget.  That's a pretty absurd an idea anyway.  As just said, the mandate is to cut expenses - that being the case, this is all about the Air Force examining what 'non-essential' and 'non-combat' tasks can be handed off to CAP as a value-added proposition to take advantage of our volunteer services.

I bet if many were intellectually honest, there are quite a few things we can do for the Air Force that would save them quite a bit.

Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.

Ah yes...

"General Sir... We are sorry, but we have to take your C-37 away from you. But we have arranged for you to fly in a brand new C-182 instead... Your pilot is that older gentleman in the polo shirt over there. "
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: etc on November 18, 2011, 05:40:08 PM
I'm still pretty new but have noticed how stringently customs and courtesies are enforced in the cadet program. I try to do the same as much as possible. To be it seems a bit hypocritical to not.

Cadets are fun... and evil.

Aside from cadets being sticklers for C & C, I have noticed the same for military NCO's. And I have seen one or two pointedly correct the occasional wayward officer. (With respect to rank of course) 
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

lordmonar

Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
+1.

My cadets come back from encampment and you can't walk 10 feet with out 2-3 cadets bracing up and shouting "Good Evening Sir!".
Geez....I was just going to the bathroom!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2011, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   

Not very strange when you consider that Air Force cadets brace and come to attention when an officer passes.  At least they did the last time I visited the Academy last year.  And AFROTC cadets have a similarly high customs and courtesies requirement.

And the last time I visted Lackland, I saw that the BMT trainees also were expected to exhibit a high level of customs and courtesies.  And although I haven't been to an AF tech school, I am given to understand that the airmen still have formations, do some marching, and are held to a fairly high customs and courtesies standard.  Less that BMT, I suppose, but higher than they will be held to when they arrive at their operational unit as trained airmen.

Why?

I suspect it has something to do with the military training method successfully used by every military in the world since the first Legionnaire was disciplined by a centurion.  Trainees have always been held to a higher standard while they are learning military and other new skills.

CAP cadets continue this long and successful tradition.  Cadets - by definition - are students.  They are learning leadership, getting an aerospace education, getting in shape, and developing their character as part of the Cadet Program.  And our training method uses some military aspects to challenge and develop our cadets.

Which includes a high level of military customs and courtesies.  Like standing when an officer comes into the room.  Saluting smartly when appropriate.  And addressing seniors as "Ma'am" or "Sir" as appropriate.
And I agree......hence the comments from the other thread about how seniors address each other when cadets are not around and how they act when cadets are around.

We stress the C&C's....but we don't go over board.  I never chew out someone who renders even hard core C&C's.....especially if they are new.  We will get to relaxing them as they mature and know when and were hard core C&C is appropriat and more familuarity is called for.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

davedove

Quote from: lordmonar on November 18, 2011, 06:27:27 PM
Quote from: Larry Mangum on November 18, 2011, 03:42:23 PM
So many people here on CAP-TALK want us to be more like the Air Force.  Well in the Air Force, airmen do not brace or come to attention when an officer simply passes them by in the hallway. So why woudl we expect cadets to do so?   What is the purpose of having them do so?
+1.

My cadets come back from encampment and you can't walk 10 feet with out 2-3 cadets bracing up and shouting "Good Evening Sir!".
Geez....I was just going to the bathroom!

What?  And no one moved to make sure the seat was warm for you???? >:(
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003