Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?

[RiverAux]

Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.

To be clear, I'm not surprised that such talk is around, but I also don't think it is likely to amount to much unless CAP does something incredibly stupid to mess things up. 

Keep in mind that CAP has made it through a lot of previous DoD budget cutbacks.  From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

[NCRblues]

Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.

To be clear, I'm not surprised that such talk is around, but I also don't think it is likely to amount to much unless CAP does something incredibly stupid to mess things up. 

Keep in mind that CAP has made it through a lot of previous DoD budget cutbacks.  From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

I have thought allot about your last statement before. To an extent it is still baffling, but at the same time not. Americans were shocked that the coasts were no longer safe. Even when the war ended people were still very aware that with "modern technology" the coast was vulnerable. Keeping CAP on the books and in the skies made sense for generals turned politicians after the war.

Still would be interesting to really find out how hard CAP had to fight to stay up in the air.

[SARDOC]

I think any basic cost benefit analysis would show us as an asset worth keeping.  I would like to see the USAF help CAP become more of a resource for other federal agencies like HLS or FEMA

[ZigZag911]

First, USAF gets a lot more 'bang for the buck' from CAP than AFJROTC.

Secondly, 1st AF seems fairly pleased with us, as does FEMA.

Thirds, if USAF ever did cut us loose, it is very possible either Homeland Security or the Army Guard would grab us PDQ...which might give the Air Staff second thoughts (if indeed this is anything other than the occasional "sky is falling" talk).

[DBlair]

First, USAF gets a lot more 'bang for the buck' from CAP than AFJROTC.

Secondly, 1st AF seems fairly pleased with us, as does FEMA.

Thirds, if USAF ever did cut us loose, it is very possible either Homeland Security or the Army Guard would grab us PDQ...which might give the Air Staff second thoughts (if indeed this is anything other than the occasional "sky is falling" talk).

I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

So, with that said, I agree that CAP would be quickly absorbed... and just think, we already have a variety of non-AF uniforms from which DHS could choose for CAP. lol  Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

Back in 1995 when John McCain was wielding his death ray toward us, there was talk of shifting us to DoT, which of course "owned" the USCG and USCGAUX at the time.  CAP would likely have disappeared, as we would have very likely been absorbed by the CGAUX.

The cadet side of things would also have been deep-sixed.

Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

And that would just please the stink out of our members who dislike the paramilitary connections (I am not one of those) and want us to be all SAR/DR, all the time.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.

I have wished that for a long time, and my views are not shared by a lot of CAP members.

I have thought that CAP-USAF should be moved to the Air Force Reserve Command, and that our National Commander would be an AFRES two-star, with a CAP one-star as his/her deputy.

Region commanders would be an AFRES one-star, with a CAP Colonel as deputy.

Wing commanders would be an AFRES Colonel, with a CAP lieutenant colonel as deputy.

(The reason I say AFRES and not ANG is because of the Title 10 dual state/Federal jurisdiction...we are always Federal, and an ANG officer not Federalized could likely not exercise control over us, because s/he would be responsible to his/her State AG).

The Auxiliary factor, as you put it, is what drew me.  Lose that and you lose quite a few people, except for the all SAR/DR, all the time sector.

[NCRblues]

Excuse me while I go on a rant:

I am so sick and tired of people in CAP afraid to say we are part of the AF family.

Just because airman are not given a class at basic, or some random officers dislike CAP means nothing. We ARE part of the AF family. We have members who wanted nothing more in life than to serve on AD, but could not due to medical problems or other disqualifying items. These members are some of the most active and devoted I have ever meet in my life, and to be honest, they put ALOT of AD members to shame in that department.

I stress this every time I talk to someone in the military, we are part of the family... Don't like it? That sucks for you, help me carry out our congressional mission or get out of my way. I don't have time for people who are scared to offend Airman bag - o - &%$*.

GRRRR

END OF RANT.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Rant shared.

We have members who wanted nothing more in life than to serve on AD, but could not due to medical problems or other disqualifying items. These members are some of the most active and devoted I have ever meet in my life, and to be honest, they put ALOT of AD members to shame in that department.

I have known plenty of those, as well as former members of the Armed Forces who had to get out for medical reasons, hardship discharge, etc.

I don't have time for people who are scared to offend Airman bag - o - &%$*.

I don't either, but unfortunately for us there are a considerable amount of people up the chain who ARE afraid to offend 18 year old Airman Slicksleeve, who complains to First Shirt Diamond that some old fart wearing "our" uniform isn't wearing it "right" and shouldn't be wearing it.  First Shirt Diamond then mentions it where Lieutenant Colonel Silverball hears it, and Lt Col Silverball happens to know someone at CAP-USAF who knows someone at AETC who wears stars...

Then National starts in with the handwringing about "We have to be more distinctive (a word I'm beginning to loathe)!  The Air Force is mad at us!  Let's see what else on the uniform we can turn grey!"

And that ends up as more fodder for our members who hate the fact that we have any connection to the AF.

[PHall]

I know of several instances when academia (dissertations and other such research) looked into DHS and the idea of an auxiliary supportive in the way CGAux is of USCG, but most likely in a plain DHS sort of branding, some have suggested a slant towards Border Patrol, others towards Disaster Relief/Emergency Management efforts, all with excellent points as to an auxiliary being beneficial to the parent department.

Back in 1995 when John McCain was wielding his death ray toward us, there was talk of shifting us to DoT, which of course "owned" the USCG and USCGAUX at the time.  CAP would likely have disappeared, as we would have very likely been absorbed by the CGAUX.

The cadet side of things would also have been deep-sixed.

Seriously, though, I think it would be fairly easy to transition to DHS as it seems the organization has either consciously or unconsciously been heading in that direction for a while.

And that would just please the stink out of our members who dislike the paramilitary connections (I am not one of those) and want us to be all SAR/DR, all the time.

Personally, I wish CAP would have a much closer/integrated (think CGAux) relationship, and I hope the AF never drops CAP as I think the auxiliary factor is what draws many members and keeps many involved, that feeling of kinda/sorta/not really being 'part' of the USAF.

I have wished that for a long time, and my views are not shared by a lot of CAP members.

I have thought that CAP-USAF should be moved to the Air Force Reserve Command, and that our National Commander would be an AFRES two-star, with a CAP one-star as his/her deputy.

Region commanders would be an AFRES one-star, with a CAP Colonel as deputy.

Wing commanders would be an AFRES Colonel, with a CAP lieutenant colonel as deputy.

(The reason I say AFRES and not ANG is because of the Title 10 dual state/Federal jurisdiction...we are always Federal, and an ANG officer not Federalized could likely not exercise control over us, because s/he would be responsible to his/her State AG).

The Auxiliary factor, as you put it, is what drew me.  Lose that and you lose quite a few people, except for the all SAR/DR, all the time sector.

I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.

There aren't AFRC units in every state and territory, but there are AFRC personnel assigned virtually everywhere any AF component has a presence.

The state mission...is it defined by statute and/or law, the way the ANG/ARNG/SDF's are?

[flyboy53]

I disagree on the AFRC part. We should come under the National Guard Bureau. Like the ANG we do have a Federal/State mission. The AUX ON/AUX OFF thing.
Not to mention that the ANG is present in all 50 states and Puerto Rico and Guam too. AFRC isn't.

There aren't AFRC units in every state and territory, but there are AFRC personnel assigned virtually everywhere any AF component has a presence.

The state mission...is it defined by statute and/or law, the way the ANG/ARNG/SDF's are?

Speaking in very general terms, a state National Guard's mission is buried in Title 10 and 32 of US Code. That said, the National Guard is basically the Governor's Muscle and the State Guard of SDF is the reserve of the Guard and functions in a similar capacity, especially when the National Guard is federalized. That said, most state National Guards are a division or part of another division and their missions sometimes have a geographic component based on the missions of the Reserve or regular units or bases around them. Sometimes a geographically separated unit has an odd mission like aviation support (where the unit is composed mostly of truck drivers) or light artillery. Most of the time, however, they are infantry.

If we fell under the National Guard Bureau, the postive side of that idea/concept is that we might have access to National Guard funding for youth programs and the mechanism might be in place for better coordination with state emergency management or homeland security departments in order to be used for more state-oriented missions.

What you are suggesting, too, would roll us back into how the Air Force employed/used the CAP back in the 1950s and early 1960s. Old timers might remember that the Continental Air Command once served as an umbrella for us, the Air Guard and the Reserve. We were much closer to the Air Force then.

But with all this anti-Air Force Auxiliary stuff that has actually severely fractured our organization over the last decade or so, it caused a lot of State Guard organizations to form or futher develop their own aviation organizations that serve as reserves to the Air Guard.

I just think it's sad because the anti-Auxilary philosophy gained so much momentum, where there seems to be such a lack of discipline and committment to standards, that we now have so many senior members who treat this organization more as a social club or fraternity and we have cadets who are better disciplined or motivated than the adults who lead them. It needs to change.

You volunteer to join an organization like this, you need to accept personal responsibility to do what is called of you....it demonstrates that we can be trusted players. Without it, I can see why the Air Force may have begun to question our usefulness in the grand scheme of things.

[RiverAux]

If there was ever any major change in the CAP/USAF relationship, I'm fairly sure it would be to towards eliminating the CAP corporation and bringing us under AF control like the CG controls CG Aux.  If CAP was dropped as the AF Aux there is no way it would ever survive long enough to be "picked up" by someone else. 

[RRLE]

From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

[Eclipse]

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

Is your assertion someone just didn't notice CAP had moved?

[RiverAux]

From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.

I don't think things were that simplistic.  Keep in mind that it was very soon after the war that CAP was made into a corporation and separated from the military to some extent.  I can only imagine this as some sort of compromise between those wanting to shut CAP down and CAP supporters. 

[RRLE]

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

Is your assertion someone just didn't notice CAP had moved?

Nope. General Rule. If Office A is moved from Dept 1 to Dept 2, and then, some time later, all the remaining offices under Dept 1 and Dept 1 itself are terminated, then Office A is not effected since it is no longer under or part of Dept 1. CAP escaped the demise of the old OCD simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

[SARDOC]

I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.  Don't get me wrong...I wasn't there it was way before my time.  I think even then they saw a future in civil aviation being able to support a multitude of missions.  I for one am glad they did.

I am glad of our relationship with the Air Force...regardless of what color shirt I wear.  It's not about looking good...it's about being good.  I think if we focused more on bettering ourselves as an organization instead of bickering over uniforms we would make much more progress in being a more productive part of that Air Force Family instead of just being that weird cousin that they really don't know.

[JeffDG]

From a historical point of view I'd be interested to know how we managed to survive the end of WWII after all the other civilian defense organizations were shut down.

CAP was transferred by Presidential order from the Office of Civilian Defense (OCD) to the War Department on April 29, 1943.

President Truman shut down the OCD by Executive Order 9562 on June 4, 1945.

CAP survived simply because it was no longer part of OCD.

OCD was created by EO, so can be terminated by same.

CAP has a Congressional Charter right now, codified in Public Law.  The President cannot, by executive order, nullify a public law.

[JeffDG]

I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.  Don't get me wrong...I wasn't there it was way before my time.  I think even then they saw a future in civil aviation being able to support a multitude of missions.  I for one am glad they did.

I am glad of our relationship with the Air Force...regardless of what color shirt I wear.  It's not about looking good...it's about being good.  I think if we focused more on bettering ourselves as an organization instead of bickering over uniforms we would make much more progress in being a more productive part of that Air Force Family instead of just being that weird cousin that they really don't know.

:clap:

[RRLE]

I'm thinking CAP being moved from OCD was done intentionally before OCD was disbanded with the stroke of a Pen.

Possible but unlikely. CAP was moved more then 2 years before the shut down of OCD.

Moving CAP from OCD to the War Department paralleled the placement of the CGAux which always existed under the USCG. If CAP was an Aux of the USA then it belonged under the War Department not under OCD.

I have yet to find a good book length treatment of the WWII OCD. That is strange because of the hundreds of thousands of volunteers who were part of it. However, there is quite a bit of research available on it on the web. One somewhat consistent theme is that OCD 'suffered' from Eleanor Roosevelt's patronage of it.  From 1941-42 ER was the Assistant Director of the OCD. She resigned in 1942 amid criticism that she was staffing the agency with high level cronies, some of whom were alleged in the vernacular of the times to be too 'pink'. ER had been instrumental in the removal of LaGuardia as director and replacing him with James Landis, who some saw as one of the 'pinks'.

She also came under criticism for trying to include under civil defense such issues as nutrition, housing, day-by-day medical care, education and recreation. The southern 'gentlemen' in Congress also fought her attempt to integrate the OCD.

So with OCD under attack it would make sense to move CAP to the War Department and have it mirror the placement of the USCGAux.

I have no idea why post-war, CAP became a corporation.