Is CAP going to continue as an Air Force auxiliary?

Started by skymaster, November 16, 2011, 12:09:29 AM

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NCRblues

In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SARDOC

Quote from: NCRblues on November 16, 2011, 05:29:23 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

Should create a Uniform thread where everyone posts how they would handle every uniform issue imaginable..then instead of rehashing it over and over again in every thread you could just link it when appropriate to keep the OP thread from getting continuously derailed...like this...   -out-

NCRblues

Quote from: SARDOC on November 16, 2011, 05:37:09 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 16, 2011, 05:29:23 AM
well that took a uniform dive really fast....  ::)

Should create a Uniform thread where everyone posts how they would handle every uniform issue imaginable..then instead of rehashing it over and over again in every thread you could just link it when appropriate to keep the OP thread from getting continuously derailed...like this...   -out-

:o

I demand this happen right away!!!

:clap:
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

NIN

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

davedove

Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2011, 03:08:17 AM
Seeing as how I've seen a speech where a National Guard officer was whining about the 10-20K spent on their SDF, I would be surprised if there wasn't someone in the AF that would like to get rid of CAP with the idea of spending the money on something else. 

I would also not be surprised if there were AF officers that wouldn't like the same control over CAP that the CG has over the CG Aux.  There are CAP members that wouldn't mind that either.

You get those kind of arguments all through military channels (and probably all through the different governments).  General XYZ will be upset because he doesn't get all the funds he wants for his pet project, so he criticizes spending money on something he doesn't think is as important.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

MSG Mac

The DofD has been told by the President to cut costs accross the Board, and there is a Congressional Super-Committee with a mandate to come up with a plan to cut expenses throughout the government by next week. How this effects CAP we'll find out soon. But as pointed out, only a change in Public Laws can change CAP's relationship with the Air Force. BTW if CAP's $30 Megabucks were to be canceled, it doesn't mean it can be used for another AF project, That comes from the military budget which is very strict about where every dollar is spent and accounted for.   
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

lordmonar

Yes....but in the budget battle.

General X needs $150M for his Super Secret Neeto Raygun project....he may go around pointing out budget items other generals have on their wish list that he thinks are "not important".

Then the fight is on.

Bottom line though.....is of course removal of service.

Who gets the short end of the stick when you cut CAP's $30M?

Someone still has to do SAR......and how much is that going to cost if they hand it off to some other DoD agency or pass the costs onto the state/county government?

Or do they just drop it all together?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Spaceman3750

Removal of funding doesn't automatically equate to removal of our operations mandate. Kind of like how this year the State of Illinois killed the paychecks of regional superintendents but not their jobs.

LTC Don

This isn't about CAP being cut from the budget.  That's a pretty absurd an idea anyway.  As just said, the mandate is to cut expenses - that being the case, this is all about the Air Force examining what 'non-essential' and 'non-combat' tasks can be handed off to CAP as a value-added proposition to take advantage of our volunteer services.

I bet if many were intellectually honest, there are quite a few things we can do for the Air Force that would save them quite a bit.

Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.



Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
MER-NC-143
Gill Rob Wilson #1891

JeffDG

Quote from: LTC Don on November 16, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.

davidsinn

Quote from: JeffDG on November 16, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on November 16, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.

We would be working directly for the government I don't think the FAA could say anything.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

JeffDG

Quote from: davidsinn on November 16, 2011, 07:49:48 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on November 16, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on November 16, 2011, 07:10:25 PM
Right off the bat I'm wondering if a hard look at courier (small cargo payload) and small personnel movements by aircraft would be better managed by letting us do that task.  I'm sure there may be others.
Those two suggestions would run hard into Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.  We have a very limited exemption, and were to push such services, I would bet that a lot of panties would be in a bunch at FAA HQ.

We would be working directly for the government I don't think the FAA could say anything.
Who we're working for is not material.  The determination of whether we are a "public aircraft" or a "civil aircraft" is determined not by "who" but by "what".  Transporting people or property as suggested is, clearly, a civil aircraft function, unlike something like being a water-bomber doing fire-fighting.  The FAA ruled in 1981 that we were "civil aircraft" and subject to FARs, not "public aircraft" exempt from such requirements.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/FAR_EXEMPTIONS_FOR_CAP_AIRCRAFT_OPE_8A476BED098D6.pdf

lordmonar

If it's an A or B mission then we are exempt from the reinbursment rules.

Still don't see why we can't fly parts and people for the USAF if tasked on an A mission.

We may have to require our pilots for those mission to have a comercial ticket......but I don't see why we could not do it.


In fact....we already have the exemption in place.  See the table all the way at the bottom.  TRANSPORATION passengers or non-CAP property.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Hardshell Clam

Quote from: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.

RogueLeader

Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 09:56:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.

Like I said, a 4 star can't kill us, only congress and the president can.  He may want to, but even the SECAF, SECDEF can't do that to us.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

The CyBorg is destroyed

#36
I remember times like 1995, when John McCain came seriously close to shutting us down.  National even authorised a letter-writing campaign to try to prevent it.  Thank God, it worked, but there were structural changes made in the interim that were not so good: overcorporatisation at the National level, and being reduced to only part-time Auxiliary status.

I wrote a letter to my Representative (D), and both of my Senators (R) at that time.  The Representative was quite well-versed with CAP and wrote me back an enthusiastic letter.  One of the Senators said that because he didn't serve on the Armed Services committee it wasn't in his ballpark, and the other echoed the McCain line of the time: if it doesn't drop bombs, break things and kill people, it doesn't belong in DoD.

There are times when I do feel that we really are the red-haired stepchild of the Air Force.  I am proud of our historical connection with the Air Force, but I also believe now the Air Force as a whole could really give a flying fig about us, which is evidenced in the fact that so few in the Air Force even know who we are!

Personally, if a SECAF or CSAF wants to get rid of us, why say no?  If someone doesn't want me in an organisation, then, fine, that goes two ways: I may not necessarily want you either.

It seems like that most of the AF people I talk to only care about one thing: cadets.  After all, that's potential warm bodies through the gates of Lackland or Colorado Springs.

I will say this: if CAP is cut completely loose from the AF, I give it at most five years before the organisation folds or metamorphoses into something else, and we will lose a LOT of membership, one of which will be yours truly.

There is a very active NSCC unit in my city, and I've been a member of the CGAUX before and can be again, and I'd also be up for contacting Colonel Land about the ACA.

Oh, the Royal Auxiliary Air Force analogy doesn't apply, because they are a lot more like the Air Force Reserve.  They are combat-capable, combat-trained (a few of their squadrons are dedicated Royal Air Force Regiment ground-defence units) and under Queen's Regulations (UCMJ).

Also, the SDF Air Wing possibility probably wouldn't work.  Quite a few SDF's started out with air units but then dropped them...in some cases because state AG's saw too much overlap with CAP!  I think the only ones that have dedicated air units now are Texas, Puerto Rico, Oregon and California, although Virginia has one based on Army Aviation.  Indiana and New York used to have them.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 09:56:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.
Just got out of a meeting with some high ranking DoD types.....and they seem to like us
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NCRblues

Quote from: lordmonar on November 17, 2011, 12:04:27 AM
Quote from: Hardshell Clam on November 16, 2011, 09:56:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on November 16, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Bottom line.....if it is a budget issue.....the USAF cannot....I SAY AGAIN....cannot afford to cut CAP loose.

We save the USAF many many many more dollars then the $30M they spend on us right now.

AFRCC only has to be the coordination center because CAP has its 500 +/- aircraft out there ready to fly the missions that the U.S. government would be tasked to do.  If the federal government did not give that job to the USAF or USCG...then the states would have to pick up the bill......and it is impossible for anyone to do what we do for as cheap as we do it.

So....any 4 star out there trying to kill CAP so he can get our $30M so he can save his personal pet project would quickly be told to shut up by ACC and AFRCC.

I hope you are right but time will tell.
Just got out of a meeting with some high ranking DoD types.....and they seem to like us

I also had a meeting with some "high-up" mukity mucks. One was the state adjutant general, the other was the Lt. Gov of the state who spoke for the governor. I brought up this very fact and thread. (reason for meeting was our wing king sits on the governors cabinet)

The Lt. Gov almost had a heart attack when I told him about it. He said and I quote (I wrote it down just to post it here) "that wont fly with this state, the governor and myself will both lean heavily on our congressmen, and if need be, testify on the hill against letting you all go".

My wing has a great relationship with the local AF base's and the state. They use the wing allot with flights and ground teams. I'm 100% sure my state would blow a gasket if we were dumped. We save the state MILLIONS every year.
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

jimmydeanno

The 3-Star (Major Command Commander) in my neck of the woods seems to be pretty pleased with us. 
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill