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Rank Confusion

Started by docspur, August 12, 2007, 11:32:12 AM

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docspur

Joining CAP and becoming an "officer" was a learning experience.  More used to the NCO ranks, becoming a Butterbar and then 1stLouie taught me that I really didn't know squat about accepting salutes, etc.  But I learned.  There were still plenty of Captains, Majors, etc over me so I still had to "whip it out" and that I was used to.  So I make Captain.  Whole new ball game but didn't really hit me until I enter the classroom at the armory where we hold our squadron meetings...I'm going to teach my first class of Aerospace Education.  I had recently transferred to the squadron and was still getting to know everyone...and I was getting used to my railroad tracks.  So, I walk into the classroom to teach and someone barks out "ROOM TEN HUT!"  Everyone jumped to their feet and snapped to attention.  I probably would've really been impressed, but I was busy at attention just like everyone else.  About a minute of standing there and I start to wonder, "Who has come in the room with rank, and why hasn't that person told everyone 'At Ease'?"  About that time a 1stlouie leans over toward me and whispers, "Sir, its for you."

I about died.

Capt DL Spurlock, Commander
NCR-MO-127 - Trail of Tears Composite Squadron

Group IV Safety Officer
Missouri Wing

mikeylikey

 :D      It will eventually get old.  When I got commissioned years ago, I had to get used to soldiers older than my parents calling me Sir.  It was just a little weird at first.  When I became a Captain, it seems like people would actually seek me out to throw a salute or a "good morning" my way.  I think most people think you may not be anyone until you become a Captain.  Weird. 
What's up monkeys?

bosshawk

Imagine my first assignment in the Army as a Second Lieutenant: in Germany, had 70 German nationals working for me, three senior NCOs and a bunch of lower EM: all of whom were older than me and 70 who spoke German around me all the time.  A real learning experience and one which I will always remember.  Didn't kill my career, but it came close on more than one occasion.

I've heard of grade creep: when I made First Lt, I was advised by one of my Captain friends that I could finally join the O Club.  Now, you tell us that it comes with Captain?
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

mikeylikey

^  Yes sir, grade creep is an amazing thing.  I have myself looked at a Lt and thought "how young is this guy, and who does he think he is coming in "my" o-club.  Same is true is CAP.  I am sure there are many people who figure a Lt has nothing to offer and has not been around the block yet. 
What's up monkeys?

davedove

I have just the opposite reaction in CAP.  Having been around the Army for more than twenty years now, it seems really strange to me when a more "seasoned" individual (including myself) is wearing Lt bars.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

mikeylikey

^ Also agreed.  What is even better is watching "kids" come into CAP as a Captain because they went through flight training.  Nothing better than a 21 year old Captain and a 55 year old 2nd Lt.  Oh wait......even better is that Captain thinking he or she is some hot stuff and trying to tell a Lt what to do.  I say save advanced grade to prior service only.  That however is a different discussion for a different area I guess.
What's up monkeys?

Pylon

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 13, 2007, 03:53:26 PM
Oh wait......even better is that Captain thinking he or she is some hot stuff and trying to tell a Lt what to do.

Young CFI's, and former Spaatz cadets, both who rate promotions to Captain are generally categories of people I consider fairly mature.  I've never seen happen what you describe, and I know both young CFIs and former Spaatz cadets.

Don't blame the age inversion on the young people "cranking rank"  - it can happen in CAP to anybody, with or without special promotions, because people can join the senior program at 18 or 88.  It's not an issue that will be solved by eliminating advanced promotions for people bringing advanced skills to the organization.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

MIKE

^ I think it would help.  It's hypocritical of me, but thats what I think after being a senior for a while.
Mike Johnston

SJFedor

Quote from: mikeylikey on August 13, 2007, 03:53:26 PM
^ Also agreed.  What is even better is watching "kids" come into CAP as a Captain because they went through flight training.  Nothing better than a 21 year old Captain and a 55 year old 2nd Lt.  Oh wait......even better is that Captain thinking he or she is some hot stuff and trying to tell a Lt what to do.  I say save advanced grade to prior service only.  That however is a different discussion for a different area I guess.

Don't hate on the 21 year old Captain.  :P

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: SJFedor on August 14, 2007, 04:28:50 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 13, 2007, 03:53:26 PM
^ Also agreed.  What is even better is watching "kids" come into CAP as a Captain because they went through flight training.  Nothing better than a 21 year old Captain and a 55 year old 2nd Lt.  Oh wait......even better is that Captain thinking he or she is some hot stuff and trying to tell a Lt what to do.  I say save advanced grade to prior service only.  That however is a different discussion for a different area I guess.

Don't hate on the 21 year old Captain.  :P

It was so much easier to be a SFO wasnt it  ::)
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

SJFedor


Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

flyerthom

I found it to weird. I remember being a new CAP guy with a fresh set of 1st Lt bars. I was walking back to my car after Aviation Nation at Nellis AFB and all these "real air force guys" snapping salutes and me rather embarrassed, returning them. I remember thinking "ah but but you guys are real, I'm just a regular guy in a flight suit." My CO reminded me, we're really on the same team but I still felt like a double A baseball player in a pennant game.
TC

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: SJFedor on August 14, 2007, 05:40:44 AM
You have no idea...

I was a TFO.
I was known as "The old cadet"
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

mikeylikey

^  Hey you were an Officer.  Just one that had to sit at the kids table in the O-CLub
What's up monkeys?

exFlight Officer

I don't know if this relates to the situation but I will post it. When I joined CAP, I was also in AFJROTC at the time. I came in/and still am a Flight Officer. I went to a CAP event and all of the cadets saluted me and called me sir. In AFJROTC, I was not used to all of that and I saluted back and called the cadets sir's and maam's. They looked at me in the strangest way. Took me a little while to get used to it.

Also, my Group calls me a Super Cadet  ;D 

JoeTomasone

I'm currently working as a civilian contractor in Iraq, where the soldiers (pretty much regardless of rank and probably having been instructed to) address us as "sir".    One day (and I'll admit I was tired), I was chatting with a group of newcomers who were "sir'ing" me left and right.   We were walking and a Major comes the opposite direction.  You guessed it, I threw a salute out with a "Good afternoon, sir" almost in total sync with the entire group.    After he passed, one of the group says, "Um, sir, you know that you don't have to salute officers like we do.... Right?".   I wasn't sure which would be more embarrassing -- explaining that I'm a 1st Lt in CAP and it was out of habit, fatigue, and the mindset I was in with them all addressing me as "sir", or to play dumb and say, "Oh, really?    Umm..   Thanks..".     So I just basically said, "Yeah, but I would have felt left out.." with a grin.    Fortunately, they bought it.   :)


NCRblues

 ???When did we start saluting in Iraq? When I was there, it was a no salute zone in country...
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

JoeTomasone

Beats me, but outside of a few posted "no salute" zones, it's universal outdoors on this FOB -- as near as I can tell, anyway; I don't go looking to see who is and isn't, but I see it often enough for it to be dismissed as an aberration.



Seabee219

I have to admit that it is strange now that I am a CAP officer that I get saluted, and call older men that served in WW2 by there first name.   I served in the Navy and was a enlisted grunt all my years in.  In my squadron, we have the respect of all the seniors with eathother.
CAP Capt, Retired US Navy Seabee.
  MRO, MS, MO, UDF, GT3, MSA, CUL
1. Lead by example, and take care of your people

Cecil DP

Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 19, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
Beats me, but outside of a few posted "no salute" zones, it's universal outdoors on this FOB -- as near as I can tell, anyway; I don't go looking to see who is and isn't, but I see it often enough for it to be dismissed as an aberration.

In Vietnam we only saluted an Officer if we thought there was a sniper in the area.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

SDF_Specialist

Quote from: flyerthom on August 14, 2007, 07:54:10 AM
I found it to weird. I remember being a new CAP guy with a fresh set of 1st Lt bars. I was walking back to my car after Aviation Nation at Nellis AFB and all these "real air force guys" snapping salutes and me rather embarrassed, returning them. I remember thinking "ah but but you guys are real, I'm just a regular guy in a flight suit." My CO reminded me, we're really on the same team but I still felt like a double A baseball player in a pennant game.

Well they may have known you were CAP, and were unsure as to if they have to salute you. Remember, when it doubt, pull it out. Or, they just felt it was necessary to salute. It's a nice gesture regardless. I'd say enjoy it. When I was in CAP, I walked past two AF TSgts who looked at my name tag and said "Oh. You're CAP. Why not get rid of that second line on the tag there, and become a real man?". I politely responded "Well I thank you for the offer, but I'm happy with the amount of man that I am volunteering for my country. Thank you for your service."
SDF_Specialist

SilverEagle2

Quote from: Cecil DP on December 10, 2009, 05:47:53 PM

In Vietnam we only saluted an Officer if we thought there was a sniper in the area.

That's just mean  >:D
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

Cecil DP

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on December 10, 2009, 06:36:59 PM
Quote from: Cecil DP on December 10, 2009, 05:47:53 PM

In Vietnam we only saluted an Officer if we thought there was a sniper in the area.

That's just mean  >:D

No, It's Darwinism
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

Gunner C

Quote from: Cecil DP on December 10, 2009, 05:47:53 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 19, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
Beats me, but outside of a few posted "no salute" zones, it's universal outdoors on this FOB -- as near as I can tell, anyway; I don't go looking to see who is and isn't, but I see it often enough for it to be dismissed as an aberration.

In Vietnam we only saluted an Officer if we thought there was a sniper in the area.
Our greeting of the day "downrange" was "Sniper check, sir!" They'd feign ducking and ask us not to do that again.   8)

tarheel gumby

Had a Navy Master Chief Salute me when I was on encampment staff, at a FLWG winter encampment. The encampment was at Orlando NTC, I was wearing the Dark Blue winter combonation with SFO shoulder marks. I just returned the salute in the manner it was given, and kept on moving. Being a Navy Brat I have always held MCPO's in esteem, so when I was saluted by one I was shocked.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

PHall

Quote from: tarheel gumby on December 12, 2009, 01:33:09 PM
Had a Navy Master Chief Salute me when I was on encampment staff, at a FLWG winter encampment. The encampment was at Orlando NTC, I was wearing the Dark Blue winter combonation with SFO shoulder marks. I just returned the salute in the manner it was given, and kept on moving. Being a Navy Brat I have always held MCPO's in esteem, so when I was saluted by one I was shocked.

But you did exactly the "right" thing, returned the salute and got on with your business. :clap:

Redbird Leader

Back in '74 when I turned SM (due to enlisting in the AF), I was selected to be a Sqdn CC, even though I was only a Chief Warrant Officer (CWO).  When the papers were sent to Nat'l, they sent them back with the notation that cadets couldn't be squadron commanders (CWO).  That little slash (/) really does make a difference.
Commander, Redbird Cadet Sqdn (MO-801)
Captain, USAF (Ret)
Prior, never ex, cadet (Mitchell unnumbered Jul 71)

Dragon 3-2

Three times this year I have be saluted by Active duty

1.  Coming out of the Ft.Dix MCSS an Army SgtMaj saluted myself and my buddy, he a C/LtCol and me a C/Capt.

2. Three Army ROTC cadet 1st LT's Saluted me at encampment by the Ft.Dix chow hall, I'm a C/LtCol now and we use the same rank insignia as them.

3. by far the scariest of them all, also at encampment, while the basics were practicing for their graduation parade on the way to chow, as the PAO I ran a head of the formation to get a shot, and turned my back to a group of approaching active duty ( they were a ways off so I thought I was safe...boy was I wrong) out of the corner of my eye I saw ABU patter moving closer to me, so I turned to make sure I wasn't ignoring an officer and was greeted by an USAF Security Forces female 1st LT Saluting me.  out of pure shock a stammered getting my salute up and jumbled  what was intended to be "Good Afternoon Ma'am", into " Good Noon Ma'am". She smiled and said " Relax Colonel,  I was a C/Major before this", and we went about our duties.

Captain  Steven Smith
Aerospace Education Officer
NJ-102 Plainfield Red Falcons
Eaker #2089
2009 NJWG / NER Dragon Drill Team

Spaceman3750

Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 19, 2009, 05:03:49 AM
I'm currently working as a civilian contractor in Iraq, where the soldiers (pretty much regardless of rank and probably having been instructed to) address us as "sir".

Many times people refer to individuals of equal or lower "rank" as sir simply out of respecting them as an all-around person, or to foster mutual respect. I am a network technician for a local school system and routinely call students "sir or ma'am" when they initiate a question or conversation with me simply because I want to show them that I respect them, and that in turn leads them to have a bit of respect for me. That means they're less likely to break my computer labs ^.^.

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2010, 10:03:41 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 19, 2009, 05:03:49 AM
I'm currently working as a civilian contractor in Iraq, where the soldiers (pretty much regardless of rank and probably having been instructed to) address us as "sir".

Many times people refer to individuals of equal or lower "rank" as sir simply out of respecting them as an all-around person, or to foster mutual respect. I am a network technician for a local school system and routinely call students "sir or ma'am" when they initiate a question or conversation with me simply because I want to show them that I respect them, and that in turn leads them to have a bit of respect for me.


As do I, but this is universal in anything but very casual conversation; not a random act of respect.   

You know the sad thing?  I am addressed as "sir" much more often as a civilian by RM personnel than I am in uniform as a CAP Officer by cadets and SMs of lower grade.




MSgt Van

While at Maxwell AFB I'm often mistaken for a MSgt...   ;D

Grumpy

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2010, 10:03:41 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on October 19, 2009, 05:03:49 AM
I'm currently working as a civilian contractor in Iraq, where the soldiers (pretty much regardless of rank and probably having been instructed to) address us as "sir".

Many times people refer to individuals of equal or lower "rank" as sir simply out of respecting them as an all-around person, or to foster mutual respect. I am a network technician for a local school system and routinely call students "sir or ma'am" when they initiate a question or conversation with me simply because I want to show them that I respect them, and that in turn leads them to have a bit of respect for me. That means they're less likely to break my computer labs ^.^.

What is the problem here?  Using the term "ma'am or "sir" is simple courtesy.  If you need a regulation to tell you who to say it to you're hurtin' for certain.

maverik

Plus isn't it just general military knowledge that civilian are "sir/ma'am".
KC9SFU
Fresh from the Mint C/LT
"Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne

JoeTomasone

First time I have encountered it in use.   In all my professional work with the military stateside I don't think I was ever addressed as "sir"; or certainly not to the degree that I took notice as I did here.   Might have to inquire about it.


AlphaSigOU

Back in my days WIWOAD I was an A1C working the chow hall at 'Spang-Quentin Federal Penitentiary' (Spangdahlem AB, Federal Republic of Germany, for the humor-challenged); for a few hours once a week I would swap stripes for 1st Lt bars and walk down the hill to our squadron meeting place on base.

Occasionally, I'd get saluted, and I would return the courtesy. The following morning I'd get double-takes from some airmen and NCOs when they saw me slinging hash for breakfast in cook's whites and A1C stripes. When questioned I politely explained and that was fine by them. The first shirt and the services squadron commander knew of my dual status and were OK with it - my CAP squadron commander (an AD SSgt and CAP Maj) was also in my squadron.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Dragon 3-2

I just thought of a way to avoid this problem all together, It'll prob bring a fire from the sky on be but here goes.

instead of senior members wearing the AF rank insignia, why not Gold versions of the cadet ranks? or use squares and triangles... just a thought

* digs foxhole *

Captain  Steven Smith
Aerospace Education Officer
NJ-102 Plainfield Red Falcons
Eaker #2089
2009 NJWG / NER Dragon Drill Team

Spike

^ There is no problem.  There is nothing that needs to be fixed.  If anything, older Cadet Officers are mistaken for Real Air Force Officers more than Fat donut eating Senior Members. 

Grumpy

Quote from: Spike on January 14, 2010, 03:11:53 PM
^ There is no problem.  There is nothing that needs to be fixed.  If anything, older Cadet Officers are mistaken for Real Air Force Officers more than Fat donut eating Senior Members.

Ooooo

mynetdude

I have no RM experience whatsoever.

I remember and will cherish these memories, I remember when I first started wearing the uniform soon I was calling every cadet ma'am and sir finally our c/CMSgt had to tell me that I do not call cadets ma'am and sir that I were to call them cadets and/or their ranks.

Then I remember I was looking for the DCC she was not in the classroom and so I happened to be in the classroom all the cadets came to attention, of course I was not sure what to do and the c/CMsgt again had to tell me I had to tell them "at ease" etc etc.

I have trouble making out the RM AF ranks on their collars on their BDUs as they are kind of dark so I salute them anyway (and get none back).  I LOOOVE those metal grades on the flight caps for those wearing the AF blues or flight suit I can see those much better than our own grade insignias

Wolfman21

Nice, :clap:, that one made me chuckle.. ;D I feel sorry for the person who returned the salute :'(
C/SrA Kidd
Element leader
GLR-KY-216
Ft. Campbell composite squadron
"EAGLES OF MERCEY"

lordmonar

Quote from: Wolfman21 on May 18, 2010, 04:35:03 PM
Nice, :clap:, that one made me chuckle.. ;D I feel sorry for the person who returned the salute :'(

What?

You feel sorry for someone returing a military courtesy even when he did not have to?  That makes me sad  :-[.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JayT

Quote from: Wolfman21 on May 18, 2010, 04:35:03 PM
Nice, :clap:, that one made me chuckle.. ;D I feel sorry for the person who returned the salute :'(

A salute isn't really that big of a deal. It's just a courtesy and greeting.
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

mynetdude

Quote from: JThemann on May 19, 2010, 12:47:53 AM
Quote from: Wolfman21 on May 18, 2010, 04:35:03 PM
Nice, :clap:, that one made me chuckle.. ;D I feel sorry for the person who returned the salute :'(

A salute isn't really that big of a deal. It's just a courtesy and greeting.

The RM guy didn't return the salute, I didn't say he did but I saluted them anyway.  I was told that a salute does NOT have to be dependent on rank/grade necessarily; saluting is a mutual respect courtesy and can be extended to civilians for that matter if you so wish to.

I regularly get saluted by VFW folks (I have made the mistake of not saluting back, I am terribly torn about not knowing this before).  I live in an community heavily populated by WWII and some Vietnam veterans as well as Korean war vets.

tdepp

Quote from: Spike on January 14, 2010, 03:11:53 PM
^ There is no problem.  There is nothing that needs to be fixed.  If anything, older Cadet Officers are mistaken for Real Air Force Officers more than Fat donut eating Senior Members.

Hey! Watch it.  I resemble that remark.  ;)
Todd D. Epp, LL.M., Capt, CAP
Sioux Falls Composite Squadron Deputy Commander for Seniors
SD Wing Public Affairs Officer
Wing website: http://sdcap.us    Squadron website: http://www.siouxfallscap.com
Author of "This Day in Civil Air Patrol History" @ http://caphistory.blogspot.com

raivo

I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

PHall

Quote from: raivo on May 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM
I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

Bad senior member, no doughnut! >:D

lordmonar

Quote from: PHall on May 23, 2010, 03:09:24 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM
I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

Bad senior member, no doughnut! >:D
Hey no fair throwing the book at him!  You got use progressive discipline! 

Bad Senior Member....don't do it again or I will have to wag my finger at you!
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

GTM SGT Frazier

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on December 10, 2009, 06:36:59 PM
Quote from: Cecil DP on December 10, 2009, 05:47:53 PM

In Vietnam we only saluted an Officer if we thought there was a sniper in the area.

That's just mean  >:D
Agreed

DakRadz

Quote from: raivo on May 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM
I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

A SF TSgt once saluted me as I was leaving the GA Academy Day at Dobbins ARB (driving away in my car). I was in my JROTC blues, plus our drill team's blue beret (I KNOW!!!! I was ignorant on this stuff at the time and my instructors didn't warn me- but the SF I met up close had no issue with it, I wasn't flaunting.), so I guess he saw shoulder marks and silver insignia on the beret and reacted.

I saluted back, kept a straight face to avoid embarrassing him, and started turning red and cracking up when I was out of sight.

He started getting this "Awww man" grin/grimace on his face after the salute, so I think he realized about midway that I was a cadet, which is the only reason I cracked up, plus being bemused and embarrassed that I was mistaken for a real officer.

HGjunkie

Quote from: DakRadz on November 15, 2010, 09:22:56 PM
Quote from: raivo on May 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM
I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

A SF TSgt once saluted me as I was leaving the GA Academy Day at Dobbins ARB (driving away in my car). I was in my JROTC blues, plus our drill team's blue beret (I KNOW!!!! I was ignorant on this stuff at the time and my instructors didn't warn me- but the SF I met up close had no issue with it, I wasn't flaunting.), so I guess he saw shoulder marks and silver insignia on the beret and reacted.

I saluted back, kept a straight face to avoid embarrassing him, and started turning red and cracking up when I was out of sight.

He started getting this "Awww man" grin/grimace on his face after the salute, so I think he realized about midway that I was a cadet, which is the only reason I cracked up, plus being bemused and embarrassed that I was mistaken for a real officer.
:P
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

tsrup

Quote from: raivo on May 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM
I got saluted once by a couple of A1C's who were crossing the street I was waiting to turn into (I was in my car.) It caught me completely off guard to the point that I forgot to salute back.

Don't worry, you are not required to salute back while operating a vehicle.
Paramedic
hang-around.

FOgordo93

I just became a SM back in March after being a cadet for a year. Just a few weeks ago, I got promoted to Flight Officer. I was looking forward to the 'sir's' and salutes. I had several cadets come up to  me and "Sir me to death" I finally told them the only time they need to call me sir is if there are SMs around, visitors present or several cadets. I salute every officer in our squadron. but not many of our cadets do, which is a shame. I have yet to receive a salute from a cadet since I have been a SM. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for them, I just think that people in higher rank / authority should be saluted.
Cody Gordon, Flight Officer (CAP)
US Air Force Auxiliary
Drug Demand Reduction Officer
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
GLR-IN-002

lordmonar

I think it is a bad policy for you to NOT make the cadets call you "sir".

One...as a former cadet it helps create that barrier between cadets and senior members.
Two...That barrier will instill the idea in your senior members heads that you are not just an old cadet.

On the note of number two.....see what your other senior members are doing.  If they call each other by their first names....do the same.  It is a signal that "Hey I am one of you old guys too".

Seniors are not necessarily all about the rank thing.....they are about getting the job done.  If you act too much like a cadet around them....they will think thay are a cadet and treat you that way.

Good luck.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

FOgordo93

A few weeks ago at a meeting, a cadet was walking out to go home and called me by my nickname I received from the squadron. Well, a Captain over heard it and got on to the cadet. The Captain said " What did you just call him?" the cadet responded " I called him _______". The Captain proceeded to tell the cadet that " You either call him: sir, Flight Officer, or Flight Officer Gordon."
       So I guess it kinda goes back to the post that was made above this one ^^^ I do have to learn to be more of a SM and get out of cadet mode
Cody Gordon, Flight Officer (CAP)
US Air Force Auxiliary
Drug Demand Reduction Officer
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
GLR-IN-002

lordmonar

Go find that Capt....thank him....and ask him to mentor you.

Good Luck
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Hill CAP

Quote from: FOgordo93 on July 18, 2011, 06:10:33 PM
A few weeks ago at a meeting, a cadet was walking out to go home and called me by my nickname I received from the squadron. Well, a Captain over heard it and got on to the cadet. The Captain said " What did you just call him?" the cadet responded " I called him _______". The Captain proceeded to tell the cadet that " You either call him: sir, Flight Officer, or Flight Officer Gordon."
       So I guess it kinda goes back to the post that was made above this one ^^^ I do have to learn to be more of a SM and get out of cadet mode

Not like it probably hasn't already been said but I will say it as a former cadet and now as a former Senior Member who took the FO Transition at 18.

Step away from the cadet program for a year or two get in to something like Professional Development or Logistics or a role that is very limited time such as Public Affairs or Administration.

The Cadets in the squadron still see you as a cadet even though you have moved on seperate yourself from them and act like an adult member.

and Welcome to the Dark Side.
Justin T. Adkinson
Former C/1st Lt and SM Capt
Extended Hiatus Statues

Ozzy

Hence why I tend to stay in the SM office... except during PT nights. I stayed away from this year's encampment (In part due to the Army) but also because I was so familiar with so many cadets for when I was a cadet. But I'm going to an out-of-state one where I'm only really familiar with a few older cadets.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

Майор Хаткевич

#57
Quote from: Hill CAP on July 22, 2011, 06:30:28 AM
snip

Some never grow out of the cadet stage at all and stay smackwads for years. 

Briski

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 22, 2011, 02:57:45 PM
Quote from: Hill CAP on July 22, 2011, 06:30:28 AM
snip

Some never grow out of the cadet stage at all and stay smackwads for years.

"Capt Briski, were you a cadet?"
"Yes, I was."
"I thought so. You can always tell."
"Yeah, it does tend to leave a mark on us. ...was it the shirt stays?"

I always thought that former cadets either made the transition to senior, or they didn't. But the more experience I gain as a Cadet Programs officer, the more clearly I understand that the transition from Cadet to Senior is more of a spectrum than anything else:


CADET <-------------------------------------------------------------------------> SENIOR


The transition from Cadet to Senior is an ongoing process.

And it's easier to regress than we'd like to think.
JACKIE M. BRISKI, Capt, CAP
VAWG Cadet Programs Team

...not all those who wander are lost...

lordmonar

I was not a CAP cadet back when I was a kid.....but I was a boy scout...and they make the transition hard at 18.

It does take time to make the break.  But that is what it is....you have to break off the cadet relationship.

That means for a time...no haning out with cadets after meetings, no calling them by their first name.  Insiting on those salutes.  Getting your Adminstration Tech rating.

Sometimes it is the relationship with the older cadets that is the hardest.

Keep it tight....keep a low profile and press one.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Sapper168

Being an enlisted army veteran, i still look around for the officer being called sir and saluted before realizing its me.  Dont know if i will ever really be used to it.
Shane E Guernsey, TSgt, CAP
CAP Squadron ESO... "Who did what now?"
CAP Squadron NCO Advisor... "Where is the coffee located?"
US Army 12B... "Sappers Lead the Way!"
US Army Reserve 71L-f5... "Going Postal!"

lycan1138

i was in the Naval JROTC and not only had to make the transition from cadet petty officer second class ( cadet E-5) i had to learn Air Force terms and try to learn to be an officer at the same time.

FOgordo93

While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!
Cody Gordon, Flight Officer (CAP)
US Air Force Auxiliary
Drug Demand Reduction Officer
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
GLR-IN-002

vento

Quote from: FOgordo93 on August 06, 2011, 02:54:50 AM
While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!

You guys are allowed to wear a flight suit to a meeting? Especially not immediately after a flying sortie? Wow!

davidsinn

Quote from: vento on August 06, 2011, 05:29:46 AM
Quote from: FOgordo93 on August 06, 2011, 02:54:50 AM
While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!

You guys are allowed to wear a flight suit to a meeting? Especially not immediately after a flying sortie? Wow!

Why not? It says for aircrew but doesn't specify when aircrew may wear it.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

vento

^^^ not against regulation per se, it's just that I have not seen flight suit as the prescribed uniform of the day for squadron meetings, guess there is a first for everything. Sorry for turning this one into an uniform thread, now back to our normal programming about "Rank Confusion".

Extremepredjudice

I was on base, when I was a JROTC,  and some dumb sergeant laughs and calls us play soldiers, and tells us to get the ---- off the base...

He didn't see the major standing behind him... The major yelled at him for about 2 hours..

Hehe, he saluted us when we saw him again.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Dragon 3-2

This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms. since I only had one pair with me and no dress uniform, I had to revert back to CAP uniforms a few times during the week. naturally the cadets had a hard time with my enlisted rank when they arrived on Saturday. I got everything from "First Class Private" to Sergeant Major from basic's and cadet staff alike, which gave me a good laugh but I corrected them and asked to just be called PFC to make it easy for them. Sunday again I'm ACU's and the cadet staff have caught on and most of the basics. Then comes Monday's UOD for blues, I wear my CAP uniform and transform from a PFC to a 1st LT completely throwing off the cadets again, "First Private Lieutenant" was my favorite of the day. seeing that my flip flop was confusing them I decided to just stay in BDU's for the rest of encampment until graduation. I still got mix ups every now and then especially when in my national guard PT gear. by Saturday everyone was getting it right except this one cadet that saluted me  while I was in my ACU's and said "First Class Private Lieutenant Smith, thank you for helping us to understand the different rank structures" in all seriousness. I shook his hand and sent him on his way before the laughter got to me, that was the best mash up of my ranks yet ;D

Captain  Steven Smith
Aerospace Education Officer
NJ-102 Plainfield Red Falcons
Eaker #2089
2009 NJWG / NER Dragon Drill Team

Eclipse

Quote from: Dragon 3-2 on September 13, 2011, 09:01:12 PM
This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on September 13, 2011, 09:14:41 PM
Quote from: Dragon 3-2 on September 13, 2011, 09:01:12 PM
This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.
Right.....give it a rest.....why not ask why he was asked to wear his uniform.  I can think of several reasons to wear his military uniform.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Yes, I can, too.  They all start with "Wouldn't it be cool if...".

Our regulations are clear, and so are the ones that authorize wear for members of the military as well.  The fallout, when it occurs, is not pretty.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on September 13, 2011, 09:14:41 PM
Quote from: Dragon 3-2 on September 13, 2011, 09:01:12 PM
This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.

It sounds like your beef is with whoever asked him to wear the uniform, not with the guy following orders.

As an encampment commander I have on multiple occasions asked service members to wear their military uniforms during limited portions of encampment.  Just a couple of examples:

* Running/working the rifle range.  The base was very happy to check out the range and work the associated support if MAJ Lee, ARNG, was checking it out (and went to the required safety classes), but scratched their heads endlessly if Maj Lee, CAP tried to do so.

* Checking out and operating a govt vehicle.  After coordination by the SD, PFC Jones shows up with military license and creds to get a school bus, life is good.  1LT Jones, CAP - not so much.  After the vehicle is returned, back to CAP life (and uniform.)

*  Military Career Fair - a brief designated period during the encampment where recruiters and other military personnel talk about careers available in the military along with upsides and downsides of service.  If we have AD/reservists on the staff with something to contribute, I will ask them to suit up and help lead the discussion.  Then back to work as a CAP guy.

and so on.  The usefulness of "dual-career" folks at encampment is limited only by the imagination of the leaders involved.

If it helps, I agree with what I think was your basic premise - that CAP members performing CAP duties should almost always be wearing CAP uniforms, and should never wear military uniforms just to look cool or to impress cadets.

But that's not what you said when jumping down the throat of a service member.




Eclipse

These situations come up and no one raises their common sense or regs flag.

Yes, there are any number of times and places where being in the military may help CAP.  In those cases, as you said above, the
requirement is coordination with the State Director, and in many cases approval of the person's military commander.

This wasn't one of them.  I guarantee it.  The tone and timber of the post shows the "wasn't that cool" reasoning behind doing so.

One year we had a young man who had recently entered the Marine Reserves and was also our Cadet Commander.  He desperately
wanted to talk about Marine life and recruiting, so for the single session we had slated, we allowed him to wear his uniform.

Otherwise, as a CAP commander, I have no authority over members of the military, and they have no reason to obey my directives.
Further, the only authorization to be on the installation we use is through their CAP membership, not their military service.  Our host service
makes that very clear to people who show up to the gate in their military finest and are not on the MSA.

End of the world? obviously not, end of a military career if something goes fubar?  Possibly, and certainly CAP, Inc., has no reason to
stand behind someone who makes a mistake or breaks something if they aren't even serving as a member at the time it happens.

And Ned, while your examples above are likely from real world experience, none of that is supposed to be happening day-of or based
solely because of the random show-up of someone in CAP who also happens to be in the military.  The flipside risk is that the member takes
off their blue hat, puts on their green hat, and hacks off a local commander to the point that you never get to play there again.


"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

There are probably some situations where having a dual member could be helpful as Ned describes, but if I was the CAP commander of the event I would require the military member to produce written approval from their commander for them to provide such assistance to CAP and clearly recognizing that they are doing it in their role as a military member.

So, if the Air NG/CAP guy checks out a truck and wrecks it, they won't be coming after CAP for the repair costs. 

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on September 13, 2011, 11:33:06 PM
These situations come up and no one raises their common sense or regs flag.

Yes, there are any number of times and places where being in the military may help CAP.  In those cases, as you said above, the
requirement is coordination with the State Director, and in many cases approval of the person's military commander.

This wasn't one of them.  I guarantee it.  The tone and timber of the post shows the "wasn't that cool" reasoning behind doing so.

One year we had a young man who had recently entered the Marine Reserves and was also our Cadet Commander.  He desperately
wanted to talk about Marine life and recruiting, so for the single session we had slated, we allowed him to wear his uniform.

Otherwise, as a CAP commander, I have no authority over members of the military, and they have no reason to obey my directives.
Further, the only authorization to be on the installation we use is through their CAP membership, not their military service.  Our host service
makes that very clear to people who show up to the gate in their military finest and are not on the MSA.

End of the world? obviously not, end of a military career if something goes fubar?  Possibly, and certainly CAP, Inc., has no reason to
stand behind someone who makes a mistake or breaks something if they aren't even serving as a member at the time it happens.

And Ned, while your examples above are likely from real world experience, none of that is supposed to be happening day-of or based
solely because of the random show-up of someone in CAP who also happens to be in the military.  The flipside risk is that the member takes
off their blue hat, puts on their green hat, and hacks off a local commander to the point that you never get to play there again.
No...Eclipse one again you are jumping to conclustions.  The poster only said he and a couple of Real Military Types were asked to wear their uniforms.  YOU immediately told hime he was wrong.  YOU never asked if it was coordinated.  YOU are the one who turned a guys cool been there done that story of humours uniform confustion into a "I KNOW MORE THEN YOU" thread.

Like I said .....get off your high horse and let's keep things in perspective. 

And I want you to know one thing.....you are wrong about your authority over military members.  AT A CAP FUNCTION CAP RULES.  And AD members there on AD orders supporting a CAP function had better be listening to the CAP commander or they will be in trouble.  If a CAP member disobeys your CAP orders then he is gone....does not matter if he is also AD military or a cop or a doctor.

Nothing changes because of the uniform you wear.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

#75
Quote from: lordmonar on September 13, 2011, 11:52:04 PM
Nothing changes because of the uniform you wear.

Everything changes because of the uniform you wear.  If you aren't in a CAP uniform at a CAP activity, you aren't in CAP, especially for those
in the military who chose to wear their service uniform.

I don't need to ask the question, because it is irrelevant.  Dragon himself already added all the "fun" he had with his grade, etc., regardless, I would say
the odds are in my favor he was not there with authorization of his military commander, and at least 50/50 the SD is or was unaware of the situation
until, at a minimum, he or one of his RAPS walked into it.  I can guarantee you the SD nor his commander were the ones who "asked him to wear it",
so that only leaves the CAP people, who should not be doing that in the first place, since they don't have the authority to waive or change CAP's uniform
requirements at their whim.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

#76
"Well, you know, who cares, anyway? What's the big deal?"

Let me 'splain.

None of the Details®, of themselves, really amount to much.  You can hand-pick just about any reg that doesn't directly kill people, and make the argument that they are meaningless. The devil and harm are in both the cumulative / effect of ignoring things which are simple and direct, and the subjective effect on credibility.

The cumulative is easy to see.  People ignore the little things, and before you know it, there are real issues of command and control, because everyone picks and chooses which "little thing" to ignore.  We all know of at least one major activity where this is the case, rumors and back channel about
things not going according to reg, etc., but people ignore it because they don't want to get involved, etc., then when something goes real bad,
those investigating ask "Why didn't anyone say something about this stuff?"

The subjective loss of credibility is more dangerous, because it isn't something you can control, and is hard to ever regain.  Someone like me, with more than a few years watching this kind of stuff, can see from 50K feet that the leaders of this activity have "issues" in regards to adherence and understanding of the regs, maybe this particular example is the sum total of that, maybe it isn't, but we all know how this works, and that calls into question the totality of the activity, because if they can't get something simple like uniforms and member status right, what else are they letting slip that might actually "matter"?

That's why we should care.

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2011, 12:00:36 AM
Everything changes because of the uniform you wear.  If you aren't in a CAP uniform at a CAP activity, you aren't in CAP, especially for those
in the military who chose to wear their service uniform.

Major non-concur. 

This is how CAP Urban Legends get started.  The clothes that you are wearing have little, if anything, to do with your CAP status.

Yes, the regs require that folks performing CAP duties wear a CAP uniform.  (A fairly recent change, BTW.  For most of our history, a uniform was only required if flying or working with cadets.)

But it is silly to suggest that a violation of a uniform regulation means that the person is not a member or not acting in the course and scope of their CAP duties. 

This is how those "Maj Smith lost power and crashed a CAP aircraft, but because he had taken off his BDU shirt, NHQ refused to cover him and his poor widow has to pay $587,000 to CAP" things get started.

Seriously, if a cadet is found wearing a civlian t-shirt and shorts at 0300 in the barracks on the way to the latrine, then the troop "isn't in CAP?"

Really?

You have as much authority over a CAP member at an activity as you ever do; regardless of what they are wearing. 


Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on September 14, 2011, 12:28:43 AM
Seriously, if a cadet is found wearing a civlian t-shirt and shorts at 0300 in the barracks on the way to the latrine, then the troop "isn't in CAP?"

You and I both know this example has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

We're talking about a member who willfully wears a different uniform with the specific intent to stand-out, be different, or use his influence with the other
service to his advantage.  In fact, in the examples you cite, the person would specifically not be on "CAP duty" because he is using his grade and standing to "work" for the other service.  In which case they need to be on orders and authorized by the SD.

Opinions would be different if the person decided to wear their police uniform, or bakery hat, but the results are not.  Either you're in CAP that day, or you aren't.

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

QuoteBut it is silly to suggest that a violation of a uniform regulation means that the person is not a member or not acting in the course and scope of their CAP duties.

This is how those "Maj Smith lost power and crashed a CAP aircraft, but because he had taken off his BDU shirt, NHQ refused to cover him and his poor widow has to pay $587,000 to CAP" things get started.
FYI, CAP official training (in the form of the CD online training) is still highlighting two members whose families were refused benefits because they were not in proper uniform at the time of their crash. 

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2011, 12:42:28 AM
We're talking about a member who willfully wears a different uniform with the specific intent to stand-out, be different, or use his influence with the other
service to his advantage. 

Are we?

Unless you have ESP, I don't know how you can say that.

All we know from the post is that a member "was asked to wear his ACUs" during an encampment, during which he also wore his CAP uniform.

Nothing in that post suggests to me that s/he did so on his/her own accord "with the specific intent to standout, be different, or use his influence with the other service to his advantage."

Like I said before, I would agree that any CAP member who wears a military uniform at a CAP activity simply to be cool or impress cadets would be acting improperly.

You may be correct and you have uncovered the slippery slope to Hell and [darn]ation caused by somebody wearing the uniform of our country at a CAP activitly.

But we don't have enough information to bad-mouth as service member and accuse them of deliberatly violating regs by wearing ACUs ""with the specific intent to standout, be different, or use his influence with the other service to his advantage."

But maybe that's one of the differences between you and me.

I tend to give members the benefit of any doubt and take them at their word until it is proven otherwise.  You, OTOH, have presumed fault and petty motives in the absence of any evidence.

This must be where I'm supposed to say "let's just agree to disagree" on this one.


Extremepredjudice

And now back to your regularly scheduled Rank Confusion. :angel: 8)

I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"