Computer gridding of charts

Started by cmoore, June 20, 2006, 06:57:20 PM

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cmoore

I'm wondering if there is any interest out there in getting pre-gridded
charts.  There was a time when someone here in California was selling
pre-gridded charts for $35 a piece, but he's no longer doing it.  I think
I could probably start that up myself, but it would require an investment
in equipment to print the charts so I need to know if there's any interest.

I've also been experimenting with 8.5x11 pages with either a single
grid on them or a group of nine grids.  For examples see
http://sq14.cawg.cap.gov/images/one_grid.tif and
http://sq14.cawg.cap.gov/images/nine_grids.tif

Here again, I'm wondering if there is any interest in these single- or
three-by-three grid charts.  I'm looking forward to getting feedback.

Thanks,

Chris Moore, 2d Lt CAP
Sacramento Composite Squadron 14
1st Lt Chris Moore
Sacramento Composite Squadron 14

Eclipse

I would be interested in this for sure, but $35 each for something which
changes several times a year is not going to fly. May $10 (vs the ~$8) for a standard chart.

Our pilots (ILWG) constantly get themselves in trouble because they have
taken the time to grid a chart, it goes out of date, and the get caught navigating with it.

Great idea, but too expensive.

A better idea would be a gridded laminaiton sheet that could be stuck to
the chart.

"That Others May Zoom"

capchiro

I think it would be a great idea also, but the expense would be the only holdback.  Please let us know what price range you are considering.  Thanks.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Chris Jacobs

I have an idea.  CAP could get rid of a almost useless grid system.  No one here in Oregon outside of CAP uses a similar system and we seam to always just slow things down.  Maybe i am wrong on this one but it seems that we created something that is usefull, but just causes more harm than good.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

cmoore

Quote from: Eclipse on June 20, 2006, 07:54:57 PM
Our pilots (ILWG) constantly get themselves in trouble because they have
taken the time to grid a chart, it goes out of date, and the get caught navigating with it.


A better idea would be a gridded laminaiton sheet that could be stuck to

That's an interesting point.  Do other people do the same?  I use outdated gridded charts as a scanner or observer but I'm always careful to have a current chart for navigation.

The lamination sheet wouldn't work - the size and shape of the grids is different on each chart because the spacing of the lines of longitude varies by lattitude.
1st Lt Chris Moore
Sacramento Composite Squadron 14

cmoore

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on June 21, 2006, 12:05:40 AM
I have an idea.  CAP could get rid of a almost useless grid system.  No one here in Oregon outside of CAP uses a similar system and we seam to always just slow things down.  Maybe i am wrong on this one but it seems that we created something that is usefull, but just causes more harm than good.

I suppose you could try to get that done.  I think it'd be much easier to find ways to live with what we've got than it would be to try to get CAP to change.

I'm also a little puzzled that you say it's an "almost usless" system, then you say CAP "created something that is useful."  Personally I've found the grid system to be helpful, but I haven't had that much experience with it.  And I think the chances of changing it are are slim.
1st Lt Chris Moore
Sacramento Composite Squadron 14

SarDragon

Why is it useless? I used a gridded chart last w/e for some ES training, and it worked well. I was told that the "satellite hit" placed the "objective" in grid 332, and away we went. Working with lat/long can sometimes provide a better fix, but every once in a while that information gets in the way of searching in the correct area. The "hits" aren't always as accurate as we think, or would like.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Chris Jacobs

I think it is a great idea, and a pretty good system.  The only problem is that it is a CAP grid system.  not a Oregon emergency management grid system, or a sheriff system.  I have seen missions where we are trying to communicate with a sheriff and we have to keep converting from CAP grid system to Lat/Long.  If every one was on the same page it would be nice.  I may be wrong on this one, and maybe other wings have worked with local agency's to get them up to speed on CAP grid systems, but here it seems like we are the only ones that know about it.  Really the only people that even use it in CAP here are the aircrews.

I do like the idea of making laminated overlays.  Or make map cases that have the griding on them.  But i guess that would be a big map case.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

Al Sayre

I have a sectional subscription for the charts around my area.  When the new chart arrives, I grid the most recently expired one.  That way I have both, and the reality is that the charts don't really change that much.  I can identify the location on the gridded chart and then mark it on my current one for navigation purposes.

Remember, when you get a new chart, you still need to check the website for changes (Like new cell towers) that didn't make the update every couple of weeks if you live in an area where there are a lot of changes and construction taking place..
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ZigZag911

 A single,  nationally recognized grid system, utilized by federal, state & local government agencies and volunteer organizations, could be VERY useful...sounds like something for Dept of Homeland Security to bring about.....maybe out National Ops committee could recommend it.

Chris Jacobs

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2006, 05:32:02 PM
A single,  nationally recognized grid system, utilized by federal, state & local government agencies and volunteer organizations, could be VERY useful...sounds like something for Dept of Homeland Security to bring about.....maybe out National Ops committee could recommend it.

I would go for that.  I just think that the CAP grid system is a wast of time unless every one is on the same page.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

ZigZag911

Quote from: Chris Jacobs on June 21, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2006, 05:32:02 PM
A single,  nationally recognized grid system, utilized by federal, state & local government agencies and volunteer organizations, could be VERY useful...sounds like something for Dept of Homeland Security to bring about.....maybe out National Ops committee could recommend it.

I would go for that.  I just think that the CAP grid system is a wast of time unless every one is on the same page.

Agreed, this would probably mean CAP transitioning to another standard....but we've handled bigger challenges (like NTIA!!)

CAPSeahawk8

The State of North Carolina is kind enough to publish for NC Wing both state aero charts and state road maps with the CAP grid on them. And they update them for us every year. Great for planning and passing out to a ES personel, and best of all they are free to us. In North Carolina we are one of the eight divisions of The Department of Crime Control and Public Safety. Which include the Highway Patrol and the National Guard.

Capt Andy Wiggs
Group 3, NC Wing/CV
ES Training Off/NC Wing

ctrossen

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 22, 2006, 03:18:09 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on June 21, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2006, 05:32:02 PM
A single,  nationally recognized grid system, utilized by federal, state & local government agencies and volunteer organizations, could be VERY useful...sounds like something for Dept of Homeland Security to bring about.....maybe out National Ops committee could recommend it.

I would go for that.  I just think that the CAP grid system is a wast of time unless every one is on the same page.

Agreed, this would probably mean CAP transitioning to another standard....but we've handled bigger challenges (like NTIA!!)

I hate to burst your bubbles, but there arleady is a nationally-recognized grid system. Precisely the one we currently use.

It's not the "CAP" grid system. It's the one descibed in the United States National Search and Rescue Supplement to the International Aeronautical and Maritime SAR Manual. It's about as standard a system as there is right now. Only problem being it's not mandated under the NRP, so it's up to us at the local levels to really coordinate with our state and community responders (at least those that need to worry about air operations). On the plus side, it makes transitioning to the USGS 7.5 min topo grids for ground search, for instance, particularly easy.

There already are a number of states that print their state aeronautical charts with the grids we use on them, so there is precedent.
Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

badger bob

Chris
We should be able to use your connections and have the Wisconsin DOT or DMA print overlayed gridded maps for us
Chris Klein
cklein<at>cap.gov
The Supply Guy
IC2
National Volunteer Logistics Officer- Retired
WI-IGA
Wilson Award# 3320

ZigZag911

Quote from: ctrossen on June 22, 2006, 07:19:24 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 22, 2006, 03:18:09 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on June 21, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2006, 05:32:02 PM
A single,  nationally recognized grid system, utilized by federal, state & local government agencies and volunteer organizations, could be VERY useful...sounds like something for Dept of Homeland Security to bring about.....maybe out National Ops committee could recommend it.

I would go for that.  I just think that the CAP grid system is a wast of time unless every one is on the same page.

Agreed, this would probably mean CAP transitioning to another standard....but we've handled bigger challenges (like NTIA!!)

I hate to burst your bubbles, but there arleady is a nationally-recognized grid system. Precisely the one we currently use.

It's not the "CAP" grid system. It's the one descibed in the United States National Search and Rescue Supplement to the International Aeronautical and Maritime SAR Manual. It's about as standard a system as there is right now. Only problem being it's not mandated under the NRP, so it's up to us at the local levels to really coordinate with our state and community responders (at least those that need to worry about air operations). On the plus side, it makes transitioning to the USGS 7.5 min topo grids for ground search, for instance, particularly easy.

There already are a number of states that print their state aeronautical charts with the grids we use on them, so there is precedent.

OK, it's really nice that there is an "official" grid system.....doesn't help inter-operability much if use is optional.....and that still strikes me as needing a federal mandate, rather than CAP (or anyone else, for that matter), negotiuating with every state and county jurisdiction one by one.

KyCAP

Would be nice if someone in CAP knew someone at Jeppesen and had them add a simple function into the software to through the Grid into FliteStar IFR or the AOPA RTP program..

Anyone out there know someone at Jeppesen?

Anyone out there a big client of Jeppensen like an air line chart buying agent....

Maj. Russ Hensley, CAP
IC-2 plus all the rest. :)
Kentucky Wing

ctrossen

That, indeed would.

Personally, I have both FlightStar/Map and DeLorme TopoUSA on this machine. I spent some time and figured out how to do grid overlays in TopoUSA (I also used a DB probably now 10 years old to plot out a good number of US airports). FlightStar/Map then gives me the rest of the airports, as well as navaids, etc.

I use TopoUSA to plot everything out, and reference FlightStar/Map to pick up any additional airports out there. Works well for me, and I think we're slowly but surely expanding the DeLorme user base out in Wisconsin. At the very least, GLLR liked it well enough to give our Planning Section an Excellent in our SAR/DR eval two weekends ago (of course, we also had a Planning Section of five individuals, including three ICs, so that didn't hurt).


Quote from: kycap on July 04, 2006, 06:15:47 PM
Would be nice if someone in CAP knew someone at Jeppesen and had them add a simple function into the software to through the Grid into FliteStar IFR or the AOPA RTP program..

Anyone out there know someone at Jeppesen?

Anyone out there a big client of Jeppensen like an air line chart buying agent....


Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

KyCAP

LOL!!

I was the Planning section chief with Kentucky GLLR Eval in May two months ago with one assistant and we got an Excellent as well..

Maj. Russ Hensley, CAP
IC-2 plus all the rest. :)
Kentucky Wing

wingnut

Hey

I will be doing computer gridding  of California sectionals using US Gov geo-tiffs  and geographical information systems software. Printers are a 36 inch, and a larger one, I have to do a few to figure out the actual costs per map, HP ink is expensive, rough estimate is $10 to $20 per sectional (cost), you have to print the entire map with the grids overlaid on the map using a mouse, a simple but tedious procedure, I am willing to share the knowledge but unwilling to grid the rest of the world every six months.

Captain Bob
Squadron 35,Group1
Pacoima, Ca.
California Wing

Kojack

Quote from: Eclipse on June 20, 2006, 07:54:57 PM

Our pilots (ILWG) constantly get themselves in trouble because they have
taken the time to grid a chart, it goes out of date, and the get caught navigating with it.

I've found that I can keep one gridded chart until it pretty much wears out.  I use the gridded chart for planning and I navigate with a current chart!  It's easy to do and I don't get into trouble.