The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[kd8gua]

Heck, Tom had to take his supply of old blue Flight Officer rank slides off too. Something that hasn't been in production for 15+years that was merely listed as a collectible. Luckily I bought my pairs already!

[Al Sayre]

I'm with Tom on this one.  During the CAPMart-Vanguard change over debacle, he single-handedly picked up the slack while Vanguard was standing around for almost 6 months trying to figure out what to do with 58,000 new customers.  He should get an award, not a cease and desist letter.  I will admit that Vanguard's service has gotten better, but I still have consistently better service from Tom.

[MSG Mac]

This situation is not only for CAP. In the last edition of Leatherneck magazine, there was a discussion of the Marine Corps requiring a $5,000/per annum royalty fee from major producers of Marine Corps memorabilia. The Civil Air Patrol seal and insignia are the property of CAP and while we may disagree about the way it is handled, Vanguard was awarded the franchise. BTW CAP is the one issuing Cease and desist orders, not Vanguard.

[indygreg]

I've used Hock mostly, for price reasons, and been extremely satisfied with their service.  I hate to see them forced out.  I guess I'll use Vanguard if forced too.

[putthepinback]

While I can't say much I will say this. CAP did refuse to license the Hock Shop during the 6 months this case has been through legal proceedings. During the 47 years Tom has been in business he has done nothing but dedicate his time and money to the members of CAP and the families that work for him. I fail to see how him not being able to sell the items can do anything other than hurt the members.

[JC004]

The royalties are nice.  I want to know how much money we have spent buying back the items from Vanguard that we've phased out.  How about just on the TPU?  I think that we should see the answer to this.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The royalties are nice.  I want to know how much money we have spent buying back the items from Vanguard that we've phased out.  How about just on the TPU?  I think that we should see the answer to this.

Or the fact that a good chunk of the cash supposedly went to improve the mountain...

[Pylon]

But we should remember how we got into our current situation with Vanguard.

For decades, CAP lost buckets of money running our own insignia/uniforms/doodads and trinkits store.  Whether we called it the Bookstore or CAPMART, whether we ordred via the mail, on the phone, or on the web.  GOB managers or professional managers.

It just bled money.  Which was dues money paid in by you and me.  Money that could have been used for other programs and projects - it went down the drain in a torrent of red ink.

Quite true.  However, I'd say a large part of that was just simple and utter mis-management.  Free FedEx shipping for over a year is a great example  (I mean, shipping doesn't cost much money, right? Let's give that away...)

And clearly VG charges more for some of the popular items like "CAP" tapes  for BDUs, etc.

But the simple fact is that they pretty much have to, in order to offer our less popular insignia at reasonable prices.  For example, VG can probably sell thousands of embroidered CAP tapes a year, but I would be surprised if they sold more that a couple of dozen Master CDI badges a year.  If our veteran CDI had to pay the full  cost of dies, enamel machines, etc., their badges would cost hundreds of dollars each.

Tom and others can charge less simply because they are not obligated to carry the full line of CAP insignia.  They are in essense, siphoning off the low hanging fruit which makes it that much harder for VG to carry our full product line.

So in a very real sense, popular items like CAP tapes subsidize the "micro-market" stuff like Master CDI badges which would otherwise become prohibitively expensive.

Vanguard service can be problematic at times, but I have been around long enough to remember similar and perhaps more vocal complaints about the Bookstore and CAPMART.

Maybe we could have a good discussion about why CAP needs so many unique insignia and uniforms, instead of using "off the rack" stuff.

Heck, does anybody have a count of how many unique CAP insignia, ribbons, badges, etc there are?  My WAG is over two hundred - each of which have to be designed, manufactured, stored, cataloged, marketed, sold, and delivered.

VG dies a pretty good job, all things considered.

Here's the thing.  Your personal evaluation is that Vanguard does a pretty good job, and we've already seen that Vanguard is returning over $200k to the organization through the profit sharing/kickback plan.  And that was with The Hock operating.   So why does The Hock need to be shut down?   Vanguard was obviously making enough profit that they not only covered their costs and expected profit, but were able to also pay $200k+ in royalties to CAP. 

Are we so greedy that we just need to make double that or more, from a source that traditionally generated no money or lost money, and at the cost of member goodwill?

[RiverAux]

I'd certainly like to see some customer service surveys of CAP members who have used Vanguard.  I would hope that we included some quality control measures in our contract with them. 

[LtCol Hooligan]

I just order two days ago.  I hope I stil get my stuff.  Where's that petition- I'll sign.

[Ned]

Quite true.  However, I'd say a large part of that was just simple and utter mis-management.  Free FedEx shipping for over a year is a great example  (I mean, shipping doesn't cost much money, right? Let's give that away...)

You could be right, but they did go through multiple managers and at least one reorganization in attempts to find the right "management mix."

Maybe they just never found the right manager, but another possibility is that it is simply not economically sustainable to offer inhouse services given the product base and available customers.

Here's the thing.  Your personal evaluation is that Vanguard does a pretty good job, and we've already seen that Vanguard is returning over $200k to the organization through the profit sharing/kickback plan.  And that was with The Hock operating.   So why does The Hock need to be shut down?   Vanguard was obviously making enough profit that they not only covered their costs and expected profit, but were able to also pay $200k+ in royalties to CAP. 

Are we so greedy that we just need to make double that or more, from a source that traditionally generated no money or lost money, and at the cost of member goodwill?

Fair question.  A couple of caveats - I haven't seen the VG contract, nor have I seen their books.  You question contains an assumption that VG makes a profit from the CAP line and a separate assumption that a profit is a pre-requisite for the royalty part of the agreement.
IOW, the contract may require VG to pay us a percentage of sales even if they are losing money.

But having said that, the answer is one of those slippery slope things.  Although the following example isn't really fair to Tom who has always had the members' interest at heart, this isn't much different than considering one person shoplifting small amounts from a store.  In the big scheme of things, the store will probably still make a profit despite the one shoplifter and no one is really hurt.  But imagine more and more shoplifters (or another half-dozen Hocks) and you can see the problem.   

[Slim]

I know the bookstore/CAPMart was a drain on corporate money, but guess who made all of that insignia that they used to sell?  Yep, Vanguard; if not them, then it was IRA Green, but most of what I remember was Vanguard.  They did nothing more than stop shipping items to Maxwell, took six months to set up an inferior eCommerce site, and kicked the prices up on virtually everything.  Out of stock items?  Sorry.  Need something in a hurry?  Sorry.  Got a problem with an item that is different that what they depict/advertise on their website, contact customer service about it, and you're essentially called a liar.

Who's benefiting from the kickbacks from Vanguard?  Hawk Mountain and Oshkosh/NBB are the biggest ones I know of.  I understand that they're also using this money to build facilities at Camp Atterbury for NESA (How is CAP building/owning property on a federally owned/state operated military installation?  What happens to those buildings if something happens and CAP is no longer welcome there?).  Are there any other places benefiting from these kickbacks?  How about kicking some of that money to the wings to help defray the cost of summer encampments or whatever program the wing decides?  We're all being forced to contribute to CAP's coffers in another way, why can't we ALL benefit from this monopoly?

What really irks me the most about this is that Tom's one of us.  He's been providing quality services and mostly quality products for as long as I can remember.  He's helped me out more than once when I needed something in a hurry.  Why is CAP going out of their way to put a member out of business?  What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

[FW]

For NESA, we gave Camp Atterbury $20,000 for the renovation of our facility there.  The NG put in $250,000.  I think we have a 99 year lease for the facility.  If that's the case, we are getting a pretty good deal.  Since we own Hawk Mt. and the facility at Oshkosh, it isn't an issue there.
The NEC voted to use the Vangard funds for regional training facilities.  The NEC can vote to reallocate the funds anytime they wish.  It's just a matter of desire.

The Hock has done a great job over the years however, CAP has signed an "exclusive deal" with Vangard.  CAP must hold up its side of the contract. 

[lordmonar]

Here's the thing.  Your personal evaluation is that Vanguard does a pretty good job, and we've already seen that Vanguard is returning over $200k to the organization through the profit sharing/kickback plan.  And that was with The Hock operating.   So why does The Hock need to be shut down?   Vanguard was obviously making enough profit that they not only covered their costs and expected profit, but were able to also pay $200k+ in royalties to CAP. 

Are we so greedy that we just need to make double that or more, from a source that traditionally generated no money or lost money, and at the cost of member goodwill?

I'm not a lawyer...but as I understand that's the law.

Hock can't operate as a retailer and sub-contract for Corporate controlled items because Vanguard has the exclusive rights to it.

Not saying that was the smartest thing to do...but right now CAP CAN'T give Hock a license even if it wanted to...because they gave that to Vanguard exclusively.

It does not matter how much Vanguard and CAP are making.....Vanguard tells CAP "you gave us exclusive rights....shut down these other guys" and we have to do it.....or else Vanguard can sue CAP for breach of contract.

[Slim]

For NESA, we gave Camp Atterbury $20,000 for the renovation of our facility there.  The NG put in $250,000.  I think we have a 99 year lease for the facility.  If that's the case, we are getting a pretty good deal.

Yeah, that does make sense, and is a good deal for us.  I was given the impression (might have been a post here somewhere) that CAP was building a facility there.  Oshkosh and Hawk are a little different because neither is located on a military installation.  Neither of them are one terrorist incident away from being locked down to nonessential personnel/civilians for the intermediate future (the way most military bases are to this day, it was a lot easier to get to wing HQ on 9/10/01 than it was two weeks ago when I was there).

What's really irritating about this is that Tom's been in business for what, 30 years?  I know he was around when I first joined in 1983.  He's been operating alongside Vanguard for the last 6-8 years.  Now, it's a problem?  Quality service must really be hurting Vanguard's bottom line.

I know it will all flesh out in the courts in the end, and the only real winners will be the bloodsuattorneys, not the wallets of the members who make this organization run every day of the year.  But what's an equitable solution here?  Vanguard could license Tom as a dealer, he has to buy his products through them (CAP still gets their kickback), and it might cost us a little more so Tom can make a profit.  I'd gladly pay a little more to use Tom if it means I know I'll get what I ordered sometime within the same month I order it.  His suppliers of plastic coated embroidered insignia and off-color ribbons might have to suffer, but we-the members-get the same quality items from a reputable source who can give the personal touch and provide higher quality service.

[lordmonar]

Slim,

Vanguard may not be able to transfere the license....nor would they want to.

As far as service goes....I have to say I....in the last year or so...I have had the same luck with with both of them.

Yes it sucks that Tom is one of us and he has provided good service over a long period of time....but bottom line is that it is buisness.....Vanguard has a contract and it says they are the only ones who can sell CAP stuff.

I don't know if a petition will help any...because again botton line CAP has a contraact with Vanguard...their hands are tied or they could be sued.

If CAP does nothing and gets sued then there goes our membership dues to pay back Vanguard for lost proffits and court costs.  There goes all that kick back money that pays for NESA, NBB and HMRS.

I don't like it....but the damage was done 4-5 years ago....I just hope that they allow Tom to operate enough to cover his loses and get rid of his inventory. 

[Smokey]

Shutting down the Hock sounds like...........Obamacare to me.

I've had nothing but good luck with the Hock.  Vanguard on the other hand  charges absurd prices for shipping the small stuff, acted like I was bothering them on the phone, etc. 

Maybe it's time for a TeaParty for Vanguard.

[Rotorhead]

The problem here is that The Hock was run over when it came time to license the stuff. Tom's been doing this for years, but CAP still gave the exclusive contract to Vanguard.

That's CAP's mistake.

Vanguard's just enforcing their rights. Tom must have known this day would come at some point; he was violating the law, and the fact that we like how he runs his business doesn't change that.

When the contract comes up, this could be easily fixed.

And, by the way, online petitions have no effect on anything. Don't waste your time.

[Strick]

Just FyI , I went to the vanguard website and they have customer survey on service.  It took me thirty seconds to fill it out.  I recommend evey person share their experince with them ,good or bad

[SarDragon]

Another possible consideration is what's called "brand dilution." Related to this are Genericized trademarks

Examples of trademarked items that have, through neglect, become genericized:

   
• aspirin, originally a trademark of Bayer AG
• escalator, originally a trademark of Otis Elevator Company
• thermos, originally a trademark of Thermos GmbH
• yo-yo, originally a trademark of Duncan Yo-Yo Company
• zipper, originally a trademark of B.F. Goodrich

IP owners must take active measures to protect their property, or their claims can become invalid. I think this is part of what CAP is doing.