Loss of USAF uniforms

[Storm Chaser]

I think some senior members would leave CAP if the AF-style uniform was eliminated, but I don't think it would be as bad as some may think. Those who are in CAP because of the organization and mission will stay. And it's possible that losing the AF-style uniform could force the issue of coming up with a better corporate uniform alternative. I honestly don't think it would hurt the organization that much.

While I'm proud to wear the AF-style uniform, losing this uniform would not affect my membership in CAP. I think that having two classes of senior members, those who can wear the AF-style uniform and those who can't, is more detrimental to the organization than losing the AF-style uniform. Quite frankly, I don't understand why we continue perpetuating this division in our membership.

Yep...now put yourself in NHQ's shoes........we know for a fact that membership will be affected if we go to all corporate.....but who can put an number to that?

I don't know that for a fact. No one really can without some sort of survey or research on the matter.

And so we got keep the status quo or make a change .....one does not affect membership the other does.

Again we don't know for a fact one way or the other. The status quo is not always a good thing. That's why we're always changing. We're not the same organization we were 20 or even 10 years ago.

But it is a question mark to how badly it is going to affect membership and it is a question mark about what benefit it will bring to CAP.

I can't disagree.

So they choose to make no change....and get disrespected for making that decision.

Please tell me how my comments were disrespectful in any way. I have the upmost respect for the National leadership, volunteers and employees alike. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every decision. You certainly don't.

If they make another decision and it goes south on them.....then what?

We learn and move on. That said, the membership should probably be consulted for such a drastic change.

That is one of the problems with CAPTalk.....is that most of us are all talk an no one is in a position to make any change.  And when change does happen we give them nothing but grief.   When NHQ does as for feed back and input from the field.....for every good input they ask for they get nine that are completely off topic, or completely unworkable......I know one of the people who are vetting the  STRATEGIC  PLAN responses......and the vary from real strategic concepts to "why did they take the flag off the BDUs".

So because feedback is not always perfect, it's better not to offer any at all? Interesting. Especially when you've been working so hard in developing and promoting a program that the vast majority of CAP members either don't see a need for or simply don't want.

So....as had been said to the OP.....here on CT we have hashed this topic out before......ad nausium.  NHQ is not going to go down that route because too many members want to be in USAF style uniforms and may quite if they take them away.

Right, Wrong, or Indifferent....those are the facts of the situation.

Maybe so... for now. But the fact is no one knows what the future holds for us.

[EMT-83]

Someone pulls a wild idea out of his butt and posts it here, and you folks actually waste the time to debate it?

[jeders]

Someone pulls a wild idea out of his butt and posts it here, and you folks actually waste the time to debate it?

CAPTalk, debating wild ideas pulled from people's butts since 2005. 

[goblin]

EMT, chill out. There was some actual discussion going on here before your unnecessary comment.

While I agree that CAP needs to find a way to strengthen its relationship with Big Blue, I don't necessarily think that only uniforms can do that. Stealing from the CAC discussion (see? I can search), civilians are a HUGE part of the total force, feel like (and are) part of the team, yet don't wear or need uniforms.

I also believe (personal opinion) that the lack of standardization and yes, sometimes sloppiness of seniors in uniform may hurt the relationship more than help it.

When I try to bring folks from my "Real AF" squadron to a CAP meeting, they are definitely impressed by the cadet program. However, seeing senior members wearing the same uniform, same rank, and (sometimes!) sloppy uniforms is often a turn off.

The conversation stemmed from this: the debate of whether our squadron would benefit from a standardized senior uniform for meetings (polo) to possibly retain more active duty folks that would want to participate.  This would be for the senior side... The DCC would wear the cadet UOD and set the standard for proper wear.

If you really think that's a wild idea, then you need to re-cage your attitude. Thanks to those who offered their opinions.

[Holding Pattern]

When I try to bring folks from my "Real AF" squadron to a CAP meeting, they are definitely impressed by the cadet program. However, seeing senior members wearing the same uniform, same rank, and (sometimes!) sloppy uniforms is often a turn off.

Then encourage the senior members that are wearing the uniforms in a sloppy manner to not do so (wear it sloppy that is. If they refuse then get them out of the uniform.) And get them those senior members in uniform actively engaged with the cadets.

If you have a senior member in the AF uniform poorly representing the uniform, the solution isn't to get rid of the uniform for everyone. The solution is to get that member into shape, or get that member out of the uniform.

Though now that I think about it, I think nearly all of our AF uniformed SMs are prior military. I suppose that is why they are so uniformly sharp.

[abdsp51]

Goblin is your CC going to pay for that combo for everyone? 

Plus if your issue is the uniform being worn sloppy take action and fix it. 

[goblin]

If I tell SM whoever that his uniform is out of regulations and that he cannot wear it until it's fixed, and he doesn't fix it, what recourse does one have?  We don't want people kicked out or quitting either.  I realize tact is key, but with volunteers it can be touchy sometimes.

Most were on board with the idea. Also, most that shell out cash for blues and mess dress don't have an issue buying a polo.

I don't have any problems telling a CAP pilot to roll down his flight suit sleeves and take the mach tuck out of his flight cap, but telling the 80 year old 1LT that he looks like he just rolled outta bed in his blues is an entirely different situation.

And also, working with cadets, it's not my lane.

[abdsp51]

If I tell SM whoever that his uniform is out of regulations and that he cannot wear it until it's fixed, and he doesn't fix it, what recourse does one have?  We don't want people kicked out or quitting either.  I realize tact is key, but with volunteers it can be touchy sometimes.

Most were on board with the idea. Also, most that shell out cash for blues and mess dress don't have an issue buying a polo.

I don't have any problems telling a CAP pilot to roll down his flight suit sleeves and take the mach tuck out of his flight cap, but telling the 80 year old 1LT that he looks like he just rolled outta bed in his blues is an entirely different situation.

And also, working with cadets, it's not my lane.

Wrong wrong wrong.  Enforcement if the standard is everyone's lane and it says so in 39-1.  Plus if you are going to mae a uniform the standard outside of the minimum required in 39-1 it is upto the unit to fund it not the member. 

I hope you have a different attitude and approach in your real AF Sq than you do your CAP Sq. 

[Holding Pattern]

If I tell SM whoever that his uniform is out of regulations and that he cannot wear it until it's fixed, and he doesn't fix it, what recourse does one have?  We don't want people kicked out or quitting either.  I realize tact is key, but with volunteers it can be touchy sometimes.

Most were on board with the idea. Also, most that shell out cash for blues and mess dress don't have an issue buying a polo.

I don't have any problems telling a CAP pilot to roll down his flight suit sleeves and take the mach tuck out of his flight cap, but telling the 80 year old 1LT that he looks like he just rolled outta bed in his blues is an entirely different situation.

And also, working with cadets, it's not my lane.

Wrong wrong wrong.  Enforcement if the standard is everyone's lane and it says so in 39-1.  Plus if you are going to make a uniform the standard outside of the minimum required in 39-1 it is upto the unit to fund it not the member. 

I hope you have a different attitude and approach in your real AF Sq than you do your CAP Sq.

This was posted while I was typing out a much longer winded version of this post.

[coudano]

I've been a senior member now, in three different squadrons (including as a deputy commander for cadets) where all of the senior members chose, of their own volition, to only wear corporate uniform.  And so far, from my point of view, it has been a positive experience.

The USAF and/or NHQ doesn't have to "take it away from us".
In my opinion, it's a good idea, and this is a debate that can be won at the grassroots by convincing members, and units, one at a time, that it's a good, and maybe better, idea.
Just stop wearing the usaf style uniform, as a matter of culture, and eventually people start asking the question "why do we even still refer to it in our manuals?"  It's not required.   --in some ways, it would probably lead to an INCREASE in professionalism or at least professional image, for the organization--

--Now, a corporate service dress equivalent that looks good (in conjunction with the currently existing 'class B' --put a professional looking coat and tie over the aviator combo and allow doodads on it...) would be a great idea (again).  But that's a DIFFERENT thread that's already been beaten to death

[coudano]

Yes they much prefer enforcing the two classes of senior membership, that way they don't need to make hard decisions

And that is why we don't want to restart this conversation.

Wait, i'm confused...
What's wrong with national headquarters enforcing two classes of senior membership???

[AirAux]

I think I like this topic.  I think they should do away with Air Force uniforms.  I have been in CAP most of my life, from WIWAC, except for that stint in the Army flying helicopters.  My Dad was in the Air Force, WWII and Korea and retired in 1965.  One of my sons went to the Air Force Academy, Class of 1991.  I love the Air Force.  With that said, I can no longer wear the Air Force uniform due to being a fatty.  And guess what, it's not all about exercise and calories.  I do feel left out at Conferences, etc.  Our connection with the Air Force, as the Auxillary has changes so much over the past 50 years.  We never get orientation flights with them.  No refueling flights, no flights to Wright-Patt, no encampment on Air Force bases.  We can't get on Air Force bases to buy uniform items without a song and dance.  We can't use the Consolidated Club like we used to be able to.  I truly feel we should change the name to Civilian Air Patrol and leave the Air force out of it.  They could still support us and we could still do their Search and Rescue.  I imagine they spend more on their NASCAR team each year than they do on us anyhow.  I feel the uniform issue tears us apart and discourages possible members with disabilities or fat and fuzzies at least.  Let's design a nice Corporate uniform and all get on the same team.  I mean the word uniform actually has a definition and it sure isn't having 8 different items of wear on any given day.  JMHO, as usual.     

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I think I like this topic.  I think they should do away with Air Force uniforms.  I have been in CAP most of my life, from WIWAC, except for that stint in the Army flying helicopters.  My Dad was in the Air Force, WWII and Korea and retired in 1965.  One of my sons went to the Air Force Academy, Class of 1991.  I love the Air Force.  With that said, I can no longer wear the Air Force uniform due to being a fatty.  And guess what, it's not all about exercise and calories.  I do feel left out at Conferences, etc.  Our connection with the Air Force, as the Auxillary has changes so much over the past 50 years.  We never get orientation flights with them.  No refueling flights, no flights to Wright-Patt, no encampment on Air Force bases.  We can't get on Air Force bases to buy uniform items without a song and dance.  We can't use the Consolidated Club like we used to be able to.  I truly feel we should change the name to Civilian Air Patrol and leave the Air force out of it.  They could still support us and we could still do their Search and Rescue.  I imagine they spend more on their NASCAR team each year than they do on us anyhow.  I feel the uniform issue tears us apart and discourages possible members with disabilities or fat and fuzzies at least.  Let's design a nice Corporate uniform and all get on the same team.  I mean the word uniform actually has a definition and it sure isn't having 8 different items of wear on any given day.  JMHO, as usual.     

Finally!  Someone who actually makes sense.

[goblin]

According to the "regulars" on here, you sir are a troll!

With that being said, I tend to agree with that. A sharp looking common uniform, military in style but unique to CAP.

I don't think all ties should be cut, and I don't think we need a rename/rebrand, but a common uniform is a start (cadets exempt)

[goblin]

.With that said, I can no longer wear the Air Force uniform due to being a fatty.  And guess what, it's not all about exercise and calories.  I do feel left out at Conferences, etc.  Our connection with the Air Force, as the Auxillary has changes so much over the past 50 years.  We never get orientation flights with them.  No refueling flights, no flights to Wright-Patt, no encampment on Air Force bases.

These options still exist, you just have to work hard for them. I've personally flown CAP members in our jet on multiple occasions, and even more in the sim.  It's more about networking now than a handout but the opportunities are still there.

[AirAux]

If that is the case, it is the rarity, not the norm.  As a cadet, I encamped at Chanute Air Force Base.  Our Cadets have not been on an Air Force base for many years.  We have Warner-Robbins, near us and it is a large active base, but no support from them to speak of. 

[jeders]

If that is the case, it is the rarity, not the norm.  As a cadet, I encamped at Chanute Air Force Base.  Our Cadets have not been on an Air Force base for many years.  We have Warner-Robbins, near us and it is a large active base, but no support from them to speak of.

First, has anyone tried to get them on to an Air Force base for anything? Museum tours, o-flight, simulator tours are all available if you talk to the right people. Like Goblin said, it's about networking.

As for encampments not being on AF bases anymore, your first statement answers most of that, there are far fewer AF facilities available today than there were 20 years ago. And where there is an AF base, the facilities on base are utilized at a much higher rate due to the Air Force's push to reduce resource consumption and unused buildings. So when you combine all of that, at least here in Texas, the only Air Force base capable of handling 400 to 500 cadets and seniors for an encampment is Lackland AFB. Unfortunately, they're kinda full training the entire Air Force enlisted force. So instead, we use National Guard training facilities which usually have a much lower utilization rate but are large enough to handle the numbers.

[abdsp51]

If that is the case, it is the rarity, not the norm.  As a cadet, I encamped at Chanute Air Force Base.  Our Cadets have not been on an Air Force base for many years.  We have Warner-Robbins, near us and it is a large active base, but no support from them to speak of.

Have you reached out and tried?  Have you approached the folks there in a timely manner to set things up?  A lot of things that use to happen on a frequent basis do not happen much anymore due to the higher ops tempo and doing more with less manpower, less resources, and less funds.  So anything outside of mission related necessity isn't going to happen as it use to.

I can tell you I have gotten cadets into flight sims with very little effort, arranged a working dog demo, and have had presentations accomplished simply by asking and coordinating in advance. I even coordinated the sim time for a unit that was passing through going to an event as well. 

While many may consider getting onto base a headache, again it comes down to talking to the right people.  Sorry but with how world events have been people on the whole are not going to get the instant or desired access on a whim.  And simply because we are the AF Auxiliary does not mean we are entitled to base access or use of their facilities. 

[AirAux]

Exactly Gentlemen, the Air Force can no longer accomodate our needs, so why do we need to run around in blue shirts pertending like we are anything to them?  The people driving and working on the Air Force NASCAR are no wearing Air Force uniforms, so why should we?  And yes, I have asked and tried to get tours and etc.  To get on base requires filling out documents and requesting specific dates for specific people with specific automobiles to get to buy uniform parts at the BX.  Perhaps, you have better connections than I do.  All I am saying is we are no longer a core part of the Air Force.  We need to get over it and do our own thing with look-a-like uniforms so people can actually say, Guess what, I saw a Civil Air Patrol member today, and geewhiz, he looked sharp/spiffy/debonair, whatever.  Having 8 different uniforms does not make us uniform in any fashion.  You are not an Air Force officer and never will be as long as you are in CAP.  Give up the Air Force uniform and let us all join together in whatever we decide and hold hands and sing Kumbaya..

[goblin]

If that is the case, it is the rarity, not the norm.  As a cadet, I encamped at Chanute Air Force Base.  Our Cadets have not been on an Air Force base for many years.  We have Warner-Robbins, near us and it is a large active base, but no support from them to speak of.

Have you reached out and tried?  Have you approached the folks there in a timely manner to set things up?  A lot of things that use to happen on a frequent basis do not happen much anymore due to the higher ops tempo and doing more with less manpower, less resources, and less funds.  So anything outside of mission related necessity isn't going to happen as it use to.

I can tell you I have gotten cadets into flight sims with very little effort, arranged a working dog demo, and have had presentations accomplished simply by asking and coordinating in advance. I even coordinated the sim time for a unit that was passing through going to an event as well. 

While many may consider getting onto base a headache, again it comes down to talking to the right people.  Sorry but with how world events have been people on the whole are not going to get the instant or desired access on a whim.  And simply because we are the AF Auxiliary does not mean we are entitled to base access or use of their facilities.

Hey! We finally agree on something!