New 39-1

[Shuman 14]

I dunno about less rules, but it would just be nice if we had less possible permutations and variations.   But I do get your point about wearing it right.

About a week ago I saw a CAP Lt. Col. with a wing patch on his blues.  Okay.  Fine.  He was talking to a Maj. who was, at most, 5'6" and 300 lbs.  Also in blues.

I just sighed and walked away.

Seriously? Where do you find a USAF uniform in that size? 

[Panache]

I dunno about less rules, but it would just be nice if we had less possible permutations and variations.   But I do get your point about wearing it right.

About a week ago I saw a CAP Lt. Col. with a wing patch on his blues.  Okay.  Fine.  He was talking to a Maj. who was, at most, 5'6" and 300 lbs.  Also in blues.

I just sighed and walked away.

Seriously? Where do you find a USAF uniform in that size? 

I was seriously tempted to ask.  But discretion got the better of me and I just left it alone.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

About a week ago I saw a CAP Lt. Col. with a wing patch on his blues.

Old style ("Tony Nelson") or current?  If memory serves, wing patches were never authorised for the current service dress.  I know I never had a wing patch on mine, though my old "Tony Nelson" hanging in the closet has one, as well as blue nameplate.

He was talking to a Maj. who was, at most, 5'6" and 300 lbs.  Also in blues.

Without sounding snarky, those would have to have been "tailored," "let out," etc. to fit someone of that build.

I just sighed and walked away.

I'm not so sure I could.  It is because we let this kind of thing go on, and don't police ourselves, that is the core of a lot of our uniform problems, especially viz. the USAF.

To the Lt. Col. I may have said, "Sir, wing patches have been discontinued on any Air Force order of dress since March 2006."

To the Major I may have said, "Sir, with all due respect, you are inappropriately uniformed.  In your position, I would be wearing one of the CAP-distinctive uniform options."

[a2capt]

From CAPM 39-1, 1-July 1997:

9. Shoulder Patch: Worn centered, 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on left sleeve.
Figure 2-3. Men's Old-style Service Dress (Senior Members)
(Phaseout Date - 1 October 1999)
.....
8. Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on left sleeve.
Figure 2-6. Men's Long-sleeve Shirt (Senior Members)
.....
7. Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on left sleeve.
Figure 2-9. Men's Short-sleeve Shirt (Senior Members)

The current CAPM 39-1 sans the Infinite Change Letter parade also has the "Shoulder Patch" (Wing Patch) and is the replacement for this 1997 edition.

I recently had an encounter with someone who .. didn't read the ICL.. and only just the week previous, had gotten a wing patch sewn on .. because "it's 'back' in the manual". (as if they thought it was not in there.. ) 

[NIN]

I'm not so sure I could.  It is because we let this kind of thing go on, and don't police ourselves, that is the core of a lot of our uniform problems, especially viz. the USAF.

To the Lt. Col. I may have said, "Sir, wing patches have been discontinued on any Air Force order of dress since March 2006."

To the Major I may have said, "Sir, with all due respect, you are inappropriately uniformed.  In your position, I would be wearing one of the CAP-distinctive uniform options."

No disagreement with the self policing aspect. Really.

But when you lead off any statement with "With all due respect," what you're really saying is "With no respect whatsoever."

I don't know Panache's rank or status (cadet or senior), but if a cadet came up to me and said "Sir, with all due respect, you're inappropriately uniformed" (note: I am not) I'd be a little surprised.   My battalion commander was a bit of a "big guy," and I'm pretty sure he didn't meet weight standards.  There was *no* way I was ever going to say "Sir, with all due respect.." and tell him he was out of line.

Same thing with my wing or region commander (a few of which I knew who did not meet the standards, either. I might make a comment in private if I knew the wing or region commander well enough).

[Panache]

I don't know Panache's rank or status (cadet or senior)

Senior Member, 1st Lt.  And since I would like to make Captain in a couple of months, I figure antagonizing two Wing staff officers probably wouldn't be the way to do it, even if I was technically right.   

[NIN]

I don't know Panache's rank or status (cadet or senior)

Senior Member, 1st Lt.  And since I would like to make Captain in a couple of months, I figure antagonizing two Wing staff officers probably wouldn't be the way to do it, even if I was technically right.

You are wise beyond your years! As they say, discretion is the better part of valor.

[Storm Chaser]

I've seen some crazy things as well. When I was a cadet, we had a wing commander that was very big and I saw him wearing AF-style blues in a wing conference. They must have been custom made because there's no way AAFES sold those sizes, even back in the early '90s.

During my last wing conference, I saw a major looking pretty sharp in his short sleeves blues, except... he was wearing 4 specialty track badges; one on each pocket, one above the ribbons and another above the name tag. 

[MSG Mac]

I dunno about less rules, but it would just be nice if we had less possible permutations and variations.   But I do get your point about wearing it right.

About a week ago I saw a CAP Lt. Col. with a wing patch on his blues.  Okay.  Fine.  He was talking to a Maj. who was, at most, 5'6" and 300 lbs.  Also in blues.

I just sighed and walked away.

Seriously? Where do you find a USAF uniform in that size? 

Our squadron was assisting at a MDANG base last month and a MSG who was retiring gave us some of his old, but clean and wearable uniforms-50XXXL

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But when you lead off any statement with "With all due respect," what you're really saying is "With no respect whatsoever."

I don't know Panache's rank or status (cadet or senior), but if a cadet came up to me and said "Sir, with all due respect, you're inappropriately uniformed" (note: I am not) I'd be a little surprised.   My battalion commander was a bit of a "big guy," and I'm pretty sure he didn't meet weight standards.  There was *no* way I was ever going to say "Sir, with all due respect.." and tell him he was out of line.

Same thing with my wing or region commander (a few of which I knew who did not meet the standards, either. I might make a comment in private if I knew the wing or region commander well enough).

Off the cuff wording, which is why I said in my post, "I MAY have said."

If someone of junior rank, including a cadet, came to me and said, "Captain, you are inappropriately uniformed," my response MAY be:

"Indeed?  Please cite the regulation I am violating."

If I am indeed out of compliance, I can easily acknowledge my error and correct it at soonest opportunity without being angry.  I haven't got that kind of ego.

The only time I can think of when I was out of compliance was at a Wing staff soiree when an observant Major told me my Loening ribbon was upside down.  I went to the gents', took my service dress coat off, corrected the ribbon, and all was well.  Yes, he outranked me but I would have done the same thing if a Cadet AB would have said so.

[Eclipse]

I have always appreciated when someone finds something I'm wearing incorrectly, if one person notices,
5 others do as well.   I'd rather be told I have an issue then walk around the whole night with the
equivalent of toilet paper on my shoe.

Be prepared though, cause if you challenge me, the odds are you're wrong.

As an example, I carry the page from 39-1 regarding the proper wear of the corporate semi-formal in
the jacket pocket because so many people want to make an issue of that combo, the bow tie, especially.

I let one esteemed fellow officer work himself up a couple rounds of disagreeing with me the last
time it happened before I showed him the page.

We all have our hobbies...

[jimmydeanno]

But when you lead off any statement with "With all due respect," what you're really saying is "With no respect whatsoever."

I don't know Panache's rank or status (cadet or senior), but if a cadet came up to me and said "Sir, with all due respect, you're inappropriately uniformed" (note: I am not) I'd be a little surprised.   My battalion commander was a bit of a "big guy," and I'm pretty sure he didn't meet weight standards.  There was *no* way I was ever going to say "Sir, with all due respect.." and tell him he was out of line.

Same thing with my wing or region commander (a few of which I knew who did not meet the standards, either. I might make a comment in private if I knew the wing or region commander well enough).

Off the cuff wording, which is why I said in my post, "I MAY have said."

If someone of junior rank, including a cadet, came to me and said, "Captain, you are inappropriately uniformed," my response MAY be:

"Indeed?  Please cite the regulation I am violating."

If I am indeed out of compliance, I can easily acknowledge my error and correct it at soonest opportunity without being angry.  I haven't got that kind of ego.

The only time I can think of when I was out of compliance was at a Wing staff soiree when an observant Major told me my Loening ribbon was upside down.  I went to the gents', took my service dress coat off, corrected the ribbon, and all was well.  Yes, he outranked me but I would have done the same thing if a Cadet AB would have said so.

I like to start with light criticism of the offender's violation.  Something like, "Oh hey, Bill, I noticed you had a wing patch on your blues.  I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they phased those out about 10 years ago."

"Oh really?"

"Yeah, I think it was when they authorized the new style service coats.  There were a lot of changes."

"Oh, I must have missed it, I'll fix it when it's convenient."

A lot of times it'll be at a conference or something and they'll come back 5 minutes later sans wing patch, or ribbons back in order.  Most people don't like to be the odd man out, and if you phrase things in a helpful way and show genuine desire to help, most people take the criticism just fine, fix it and move on.

Then there are the people who aren't "most people."  I remember when the TPU came out.  It was sometime around our encampment graduation and the Commandant of Cadets was going to wear it.  He didn't read the guidelines correctly and went and bought a complete AF SS Blues Uniform.  He was walking towards the banquet hall and I was like, "Whoa, there Jim.  I didn't know you were an AF major."  "I'm not, it's the new CAP uniform."  "No, you're definitely supposed to have a white shirt and a nametag that says 'Civil Air Patrol' for that thing.  What you're doing now is dressing up like an active duty officer." 

He got all bent out of shape, started swearing at me about being a know-it-all little punk and maybe I should get my facts straight first.  Considering he was the one in the wrong, I just passed my thoughts to the encampment commander.  For the parade the next day, he was back in his aviators.

[Mitchell 1969]

I've seen some crazy things as well. When I was a cadet, we had a wing commander that was very big and I saw him wearing AF-style blues in a wing conference. They must have been custom made because there's no way AAFES sold those sizes, even back in the early '90s.

During my last wing conference, I saw a major looking pretty sharp in his short sleeves blues, except... he was wearing 4 specialty track badges; one on each pocket, one above the ribbons and another above the name tag. 

I remember being a bit awe-struck at the L. A. AFB BX in 1998 where I saw a pair of blue uniform trousers, sized 52. Under the USAF weight standards, they must have been for a guy about 9 feet tall.

[Eclipse]

He got all bent out of shape, started swearing at me about being a know-it-all little punk and maybe I should get my facts straight first.  Considering he was the one in the wrong, I just passed my thoughts to the encampment commander.  For the parade the next day, he was back in his aviators.

I am a 3rd-degree master black belt "know it all little punk".  Someone who came back at me like that would be on my radar
for "every little thing" from that point on.

No reason to prove him wrong.

[Eclipse]

I remember being a bit awe-struck at the L. A. AFB BX in 1998 where I saw a pair of blue uniform trousers, sized 52. Under the USAF wright standards, they must have been for a guy about 9 feet tall.

Or a famous Army General from DS1...

[cap235629]

I remember being a bit awe-struck at the L. A. AFB BX in 1998 where I saw a pair of blue uniform trousers, sized 52. Under the USAF wright standards, they must have been for a guy about 9 feet tall.

Or a famous Army General from DS1...

Is that like SG1?

[Eclipse]

My CAP boss refers to it as WWDS.

[Panache]

If I am indeed out of compliance, I can easily acknowledge my error and correct it at soonest opportunity without being angry.  I haven't got that kind of ego.

Sure, you don't have that kind of ego.  And maybe the Lt. Col. and Maj. I saw didn't either, but I don't know that.  I've never met them before in my life.

And if I knew them, I would have pointed it out in a non-confrontational way, much like jimmydeano suggested.

Maybe it was the coward's way out, but I didn't want to take the chance of sabotaging my career in CAP by getting two staff officers at Wing torqued at me.  Yeah, I would have been in the right, but everybody knows that if they wanted to, they could find ways to yank my chain.

I'm not saying that these two were that kind of person.  That's my point: they could be.

[NIN]

Then again, when I first moved here, I went to a wing conference and was in a group having a conversation in the lobby. The wing commander of the wing immediately to our south was standing there edging behind the CAP guy across from me, like he was hiding.

I finally said "Sir, what are you doing?"

He says "I want to be out of the line of fire when the buttons on that service coat your're wearing let go.."

I was *mortified*.

I went home, joined Weight Watchers on that following Monday.  To be fair to him, I was 11 lbs over the weight limit for my height, and that service coat (old style) was probably a size too small.

But man, what a great way to handle it, Colonel. NOT.

[Papabird]

But man, what a great way to handle it, Colonel. NOT.

Having battled weight my entire life, and being "that guy" who split his pants during an opening formation, I know that feeling.  After that mortifying experience, I went to BBDUs and the Grey/Whites.  It took me years to loose the 80 lbs I needed to get back into H/W requirements, but I am there now.  Now I have to buy all new uniforms.   

However, while a little childish and less than comporting to bearing of his position/grade, the Colonel's actions did seem to work.  He may have had a similar situation that changed his life too.   I wasn't there, and don't know if it was meant to be playful or hurtful (could be either and hard to tell in the telling).

Just food for thought.