Uniforms and Rank/Grade

[Eclipse]

I see cadets in woodland camo, and was idly curious, just thought it was an odd choice, but figured there may be some particular reason for it. If it has religious, cultural, or political importance to you, no sweat, not a hot topic for me. Most seniors I see are in some USAF or corporate combo. I think one of the CP seniors is in the woodland camo, sometimes. Otherwise, it's the blue BDU uniform, flight suit, polo, whatever, for the seniors I see. Hey, IRT cadet uniforms, you can paint 'em pink and call them Mary, and that would be fine with me: I don't have a dog in this fight.

The woodland BDU is not a cadet uniform, continued characterization of it that way is insulting to both cadets and seniors because it
infers that a "cadet uniform" should be somehow dfferent or inferior to a senior uniform.

Its not worn by cadets, it is worn by everyone.

If you don't want to wear it, so be it.  I would hazard, based on your comments, that the seniors you see are mostly aircrew, and
they historically wear flight suits and gold shirts - that doesn't make the camo field uniform for cadets or the CP.

[RiverAux]

My general opinion on this topic is that we are a military auxiliary and should dress as such in a uniform based on our parent service.  Seems like a fairly simple idea to me and I've yet to hear of there being significant, REAL problems with us wearing them. 

[Storm Chaser]

I wear the woodland BDU often both when working with cadets and when doing ES activities, especially in the field.

I have no problems with the blue BDU and would gladly wear it if it became the only authorized field uniform in CAP. As it stands right now, I have 3 sets of BDUs and no need to buy a set of BBDUs.

I'm not a fan of all the different types of uniforms we currently have in CAP. I'm fine with the Air Force-style uniforms, but wouldn't mind if CAP did away with them and went to all corporate uniforms, since not everyone meets the height, weight and grooming standards and can wear the AF-style ones. I would just like to see true uniformity among our members, which it's practically impossible with all the different authorized uniform combinations we have right now.

[SunDog]

I see cadets in woodland camo, and was idly curious, just thought it was an odd choice, but figured there may be some particular reason for it. If it has religious, cultural, or political importance to you, no sweat, not a hot topic for me. Most seniors I see are in some USAF or corporate combo. I think one of the CP seniors is in the woodland camo, sometimes. Otherwise, it's the blue BDU uniform, flight suit, polo, whatever, for the seniors I see. Hey, IRT cadet uniforms, you can paint 'em pink and call them Mary, and that would be fine with me: I don't have a dog in this fight.

The woodland BDU is not a cadet uniform, continued characterization of it that way is insulting to both cadets and seniors because it
infers that a "cadet uniform" should be somehow dfferent or inferior to a senior uniform.

Its not worn by cadets, it is worn by everyone.

If you don't want to wear it, so be it.  I would hazard, based on your comments, that the seniors you see are mostly aircrew, and
they historically wear flight suits and gold shirts - that doesn't make the camo field uniform for cadets or the CP.

That's cool; really, I was just asking about it, out of honest curiosity. I get the feeling there is some history and hard feelings IRT the woodland? A fuss, in the past? I must have missed that storm. It did seem to me that camo was a odd choice, but if that was the standard back in the day, now I know.  I imagine it'd cost a lot to swap it out, and a change would have to be phased in over a long time, even if the org wanted to replace it.  I don't have a personal preference for, or agin it  - only seeking enlightenment.

I'm pretty sure I HAVE seen one of our SMs in woodland. Don't remember seeing it on a SM at a Wing event, but I may not have taken note. Our non-aircrew usually wear the all-blue BDU, or some USAF combo or other.  That Includes aircrew guys very often.   I have a polo shirt, blue nomex when it's cold, and a blue blazer. I bought blue BDUs a long time agho, but never set them up. I have sage green nomex, but they be a bit tight now, and my sqdn perfers blue.

The polo is quick and easy, so that works most of the time. I have a baseball cap with Capt's bars on it, and if I'll be around cadets, I waer it so they don't yell at me. Not sure the regs require a cap in the polo shirt and gray slacks combo. . .will look it up before I retire.

So we can all pretty much go as military, or non-miiltary, as we like. Keep the rank (camo, blue BDU, AF combos), and use it it if you like. Or not (polo shirt, blazer). 

[Eclipse]

I have a baseball cap with Capt's bars on it, and if I'll be around cadets, I waer

Please don't,  that is a violation of CAP regs.

There is no headgear required for either the golf shirt or aviator whites, and grade is not authorized for wear on ball caps.

[Storm Chaser]

That's cool; really, I was just asking about it, out of honest curiosity. I get the feeling there is some history and hard feelings IRT the woodland? A fuss, in the past? I must have missed that storm. It did seem to me that camo was a odd choice, but if that was the standard back in the day, now I know.  I imagine it'd cost a lot to swap it out, and a change would have to be phased in over a long time, even if the org wanted to replace it.  I don't have a personal preference for, or agin it  - only seeking enlightenment.

Back when I was a cadet in the late 80s, we wore OD green fatigues with the white on blue "CIVIL AIR PATROL" and name tapes. The Air Force wore these fatigues until they were replaced by woodland BDUs in the mid-80s. And it wasn't until the 70s or 80s (don't know the exact time frame) that they replaced the blue tapes and color patches with green subdued ones.

I remember all of us cadets wondering when CAP would switch to BDUs and, when they finally did in the early 90s (I believe), we were very proud to switch our utility uniform to match that of our parent service. Of course, in 2007 the Air Force switched to ABUs and many in CAP have wanted to go to that uniform ever since.

Many have thought that since CAP seems to always be behind the Air Force when adopting new uniforms, that we would also be wearing ABUs eventually. But there have been many debates on whether we should or not go to ABUs or even on whether the Air Force would allow it at some point. To that you can add the discussions of the Air Force possibly going to a different all-services combat uniform sometime in the future.

For whatever reasons, uniforms seem to be an issue of contention among CAP members, as you can see from the many posts. I'm not sure why it's such a polarizing subject, but it certainly is.

[SARDOC]

My general opinion on this topic is that we are a military auxiliary and should dress as such in a uniform based on our parent service.  Seems like a fairly simple idea to me and I've yet to hear of there being significant, REAL problems with us wearing them.

I would agree with that if the parent service allowed all our members to wear that uniform.  The Coast Guard Auxiliary allows all of their members to wear the uniform while the Air Force does not allow it for the Civil Air Patrol.

I personally would wear whatever the organization decided that all of our members can wear.

My Personal Preference would be the Blue BDU for field work and flight/utility uniforms but the Air Force Style for Class A's and B's but I'm not on that committee.

[PHall]

My general opinion on this topic is that we are a military auxiliary and should dress as such in a uniform based on our parent service.  Seems like a fairly simple idea to me and I've yet to hear of there being significant, REAL problems with us wearing them.

I would agree with that if the parent service allowed all our members to wear that uniform.  The Coast Guard Auxiliary allows all of their members to wear the uniform while the Air Force Department of Defense does not allow it for the Civil Air Patrol.

I personally would wear whatever the organization decided that all of our members can wear.

My Personal Preference would be the Blue BDU for field work and flight/utility uniforms but the Air Force Style for Class A's and B's but I'm not on that committee.

Fixed that for you.  It's a DOD regulation that prohibits CAP from wearing the ABU.

[Private Investigator]

I'm with Eclipse...corporate uniforms, all insignia included, as sole choice for seniors...let the cadets keep Air Force style.

Leave the grade structure alone...it's confusing enough as things are...let's limit ourselves to CAP's own problems, rather than also adopting those of CGAUX, Red Cross, etc.

I concur   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

We can look pretty ragged now, for sure. A bunch of us went to a local AFB for a chamber ride a few years ago. Ghastly, I mean hideous, and I'm pretty easy about this stuff.  I didn't KNOW we had that many uniform combinations, or that we could muck them up so ingeniuosly. It was embarrasing. . .

My Unit always looks sharp. The problem is some units do not have the moral courage to tell their buddy Bubba to shape up because you are making Petticoat Junction Squadron look like sad sacks. You are a "Captain", what did you say?   

[SARDOC]

My general opinion on this topic is that we are a military auxiliary and should dress as such in a uniform based on our parent service.  Seems like a fairly simple idea to me and I've yet to hear of there being significant, REAL problems with us wearing them.

I would agree with that if the parent service allowed all our members to wear that uniform.  The Coast Guard Auxiliary allows all of their members to wear the uniform while the Air Force Department of Defense does not allow it for the Civil Air Patrol.

I personally would wear whatever the organization decided that all of our members can wear.

My Personal Preference would be the Blue BDU for field work and flight/utility uniforms but the Air Force Style for Class A's and B's but I'm not on that committee.

Fixed that for you.  It's a DOD regulation that prohibits CAP from wearing the ABU.

Thanks but that "Fix" isn't correct because it's actually the Air Force who won't let CAP members who are overweight from wearing their uniform.

[Walkman]

...the Air Force who won't let CAP members who are overweight from wearing their uniform.

Wasn't there a time when this wasn't the case?

For you old-timers, has our approach to ranks and what they mean changed much over the years?

[Eclipse]

...the Air Force who won't let CAP members who are overweight from wearing their uniform.

Wasn't there a time when this wasn't the case?

Only with the field uniforms - members out of weight or grooming could wear camo BDUs without grade insignia on the collars until the early 2000's.
Flight suits and blues were still restricted.

Thanks but that "Fix" isn't correct because it's actually the Air Force who won't let CAP members who are overweight from wearing their uniform.

Correct on the USAF restricting military-style uniforms to those in weight and grooming, but specific to the ABU, CAP has asserted that the DOD prohibition on sale to
those not in the military is the primary reason CAP members can't wear them, though no one can substantiate that the DoD policy even applies to CAP, and obviously the commercial
availability of ABUs makes the point fairly moot.

Of course "why" is only coffeehouse fodder anyway.

[Shuman 14]

As the non-CAP member, I'll throw my thoughts onto this fire.

Number One: the purpose of uniforms is... UNIFORMITY; if CAP did more of the direct support missions with the USAF, then this could be seen as more of an issue, but as it appears the majority of CAP does CAP missions that do not require direct contact with the USAF, it's really not.

As several people have pointed out, a professional uniform, that everyone can wear, is the key. Be that uniform any one of the current Corporate uniforms, going back to a Khaki  WWII style or adopting something entirely new really doesn't matter. Professional and everyone in it are the UNIFORMITY key.

On that note, I think one of the big reason that many Senior members hold onto wearing the the USAF style uniform and BDUs was/is the prohibition on wearing Military decorations and badges on the Corporate uniform. Personally I would take that as a slap in the face, and I'm sure many prior Service CAP members are equally proud of what they did and earned in the Service and NOT being allowed to wear them would irk them too.

So if you remove that prohibition, I think you would see more Senior members gravitate towards a Corporate uniform, regardless of what is selected.

Personally I'd like to see CAP return to Pinks & Greens or an all Khaki Service Uniform with Pin on rank on the shoulder straps and CAP cutouts on the upper lapels instead of the US cutouts on the jackets, and with rank on the right shirt collar and a CAP cutout on the left in Class B's.

I'd also like to see the BBDU adopted as the standard field/tactical uniform for Seniors.

As to the cadets, I say leave them in the USAF Style uniforms and allow them ABUs or whatever camo pattern uniform Congress forces the Services to adopt.

The Reason for this is simple, while not the primary goal of the CAP cadet program, you have to admit is is a major recruiting tool for the USAF be that Senior AFROTC, the US Air Force Academy or directly enlisting into the USAF, USAFR, and AFNG.

I believe the USAF likes the cadet in their uniform so if they do move onto an actual USAF career after CAP, they have a heads up on wearing their uniforms correctly.

[Ned]

Col Bagley,

If you haven't figured it out by now, I think it is safe to say that there is absolutely no consensus amongst CAPTalk participants about CAP uniforms.

Having watched these discussions for a number of years, my personal opinion is that it is unlikely that we will have one here anytime soon.

As you have seen, the opinions on what we should or should not wear vary widely, and the reasons given vary even more widely.

Perhaps more importantly, many who hold polar opposite opinions are firm (even passionate) in their opinions.  And nobody seems to be able to convince anyone from an opposing camp of the correctness of their opinions.  So we go around and around.  And around.  Sometimes it gets rather heated and feelings get hurt.

But despite the endless discussions, nothing ever changes.

On a personal level, I am satisfied that CAP has a large number of uniform combinations because we need a large number of uniform combinations to do our job, given real-world constraints.  I note parenthetically, that our AF colleagues have roughly the same number of uniform combinations as we do.  And for the same reason -- they need them to do their job.

And in response to your origninal question ; "why"- the answer is always going to be elusive and nuanced because there are multiple reasons why we have arrived at our current uniform constellation.  Some of the decisions were made 70 years ago by officers who are no longer able to answer the question.  Some of the decisions have been made more recently, of course, but were made by a group decision-making process (e.g. the former NEC & NB) which means there could be as many reasons as there were voters.

Finally, it is worth remembering that our uniforms are not an end in themselves; they are not a mission.  Uniforms are just a tool to help us perform our missions.  If our mission effectiveness is affected, we can and should change our uniforms.  Otherwise, perhaps not.  Change for change's sake is expensive for our volunteers.

But for some folks "what we wear" will always be more important than "what we do."

[ZigZag911]

Grooming standards became a hot issue with USAF in the mid 80s, really cracked down around 1990....prior to that, you never really heard a thing about height & weight standards.

[Storm Chaser]

As several people have pointed out, a professional uniform, that everyone can wear, is the key. Be that uniform any one of the current Corporate uniforms, going back to a Khaki  WWII style or adopting something entirely new really doesn't matter. Professional and everyone in it are the UNIFORMITY key.

I agree 100%.

On that note, I think one of the big reason that many Senior members hold onto wearing the the USAF style uniform and BDUs was/is the prohibition on wearing Military decorations and badges on the Corporate uniform. Personally I would take that as a slap in the face, and I'm sure many prior Service CAP members are equally proud of what they did and earned in the Service and NOT being allowed to wear them would irk them too.

I wear some of my Air Force badges, awards and decorations at times, but would gladly give them up if it meant having a professional looking uniform that everyone could wear. There are plenty of CAP insignias to wear on a CAP uniforms and if someone has an issue because they can't wear their military insignias, then perhaps they're in CAP for the wrong reasons.

[Walkman]

...if someone has an issue because they can't wear their military insignias, then perhaps they're in CAP for the wrong reasons.

My CC spent 22 years in the AF and has been in CAP since he was a cadet. He says that if he were to wear all his AF ribbons along with his CAP ones, he'd look like the proverbial 3rd world dictator.

[Shuman 14]

I wear some of my Air Force badges, awards and decorations at times, but would gladly give them up if it meant having a professional looking uniform that everyone could wear. There are plenty of CAP insignias to wear on a CAP uniforms and if someone has an issue because they can't wear their military insignias, then perhaps they're in CAP for the wrong reasons.

I don't disagree with that but you do understand that one of CAP's recruitment tools for Senior Members is to sell veterans on is reliving some of their "glory days" in the military again? Teamwork, comardship, telling sea stories to young cadets, etc.

Take away the prior Service incentives (ie retain your rank, get to wear your bling) and you will lose membership.

If that's good or bad will be up to you.

[Eclipse]

On a personal level, I am satisfied that CAP has a large number of uniform combinations because we need a large number of uniform combinations to do our job, given real-world constraints.

The main reason we have so many combos is not "need", it's the USAF's stance that auxiliary members can't wear military style uniforms if they weigh too much or have a beard.  A stance
which make them an outlier in this regard.

Fix that, and honestly, it's a fix, and our "need" for so many combos drops by 1/2 overnight.