Uniforms and Rank/Grade

[bosshawk]

I think that Grumpy has the history correct.  I was an Army Officer, assigned to the 7th AF Tactical Air Control Facility at TSN Airbase in Saigon in 1966 and the AF all wore either fatigues or the 1505s.  Us ground pukes all wore fatigues, mostly jungle variety.  I also worked with the 363rd Tactical Recon Wing and the 460th Tac Recon Wing off and on from 64-66 and saw a ton of AF uniforms and none of them were blue.

[Storm Chaser]

It would also be very expensive too. Small market = Big costs.

I hadn't thought of that. 

But how small is the market for the current CAP Corporate uniform coat? That didn't seem to effect the adoption of it. 

There's no CAP corporate uniform coat, only a CAP blazer worn with gray trousers. Most CAP distinctive uniforms are based on existing or commercial clothing items, which can be purchased through different retail or online stores. CAP distinctive insignias, on the other hand, which are available through Vanguard tend to be more expensive and of lesser quality than those similar insignias available through AAFES (many of them from Vanguard) for the Air Force.

So this coat:



was NOT designed specifically for CAP as a Corporate Uniform?

I get that the shirt is a commercial white shirt and the trousers, tie and any headgear (ie hat) are most likely USAF uniform standard issue items, but the coat doesn't look cheap and is used by no one else that I know of. 

First of all, your previous post said "current CAP Corporate uniform coat" not former coat [empahsis mine]. Second, while that coat was customized for CAP use, it was hardly a CAP original. In fact, a Google search will find several stores that carry similar style coats.



The website below sells the above coat in navy blue and provides options for customization, including the option for adding epaulets.

http://www.marlowwhite.com/dress-uniforms/fire-department.html

[Mitchell 1969]

It is interesting that our parent organization is so worried about us looking like it does that it's taking years to make a ---- decision on what we can wear.  apply it to the new uniform.  What's so hard about that?

But, that doesn't mean they're picking on CAP. Our parent organization is also busy worrying about it's OWN look, and taking years to sort it out.

[Grumpy]

I didn't mean to say they're picking on us.  Just that every time there's a uniform change, we go through the same thing.  All I'm saying is that with just the CAP patches alone we should stand out.  The Air Force doesn't wear bright colored patches over/on their pockets or wing patches on their shoulders.  Heck, our patches alone would stand out like neon signs.  Heck go back to the CAP cut outs on the blouse.  It just seems simple to me, that's all.  Keep it simple instead of making a big deal out of it.

If they're worried about us receiving salutes from the active duty type, we'll always have that problem as long as we have rank insignia. 

I have a sticker on my window indicating my Master rating in Security Police.  Last week I was saluted by a Marine as I drove by (I was wearing my polo shirt).  I figure she thought I was a colonel and saluted.  So it'll always be there.

[Shuman 14]

First of all, your previous post said "current CAP Corporate uniform coat" not former coat [empahsis mine]. Second, while that coat was customized for CAP use, it was hardly a CAP original. In fact, a Google search will find several stores that carry similar style coats.

OK, I thought that was the current CAP Corporate uniform, my mistake.

[Grumpy]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

[SunDog]

So to move on... does anyone like my idea idea of a khaki/silver tan Corporate Uniform to replace the current ones and the USAF Style one as a single uniform for all CAP Senior Members?

Ah, gee, I probably would vote "no ", if it was the one and only approved uniform, and the polo was eliminated as an option. But if you can get your idea adopted, I wouldn't run screaming away, either. It'd look okay, probably wear well enough. Probably get us a little bit of psychological/cultural distance from big blue, too.

Not a wholly bad thing, right? Not a divorce, just germinate a little attitude change? Run things a little more like a VFD, a little less like a USAF org? Note I said a LITTLE less, before anyone blows a seam. . .

Fair enough from my stand point.

BTW, I wouldn't eliminate the polo option, just change the trouser color to khaki from grey to go with the whole "Corporate branding" color of khaki.

Oh, cool! Sure, yes, you have my vote, then. One base unifiorm, with some flexibility for the more casual amoung us - the ones who can go many months between needing anything other than polo or bag? You strike a noble compromise. . .

I wonder if the conversation  here can have an impact on the reality, though. . .and if it's even worth the energy and time to fuss with it?

[SarDragon]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

No such animal. The Navy no longer wears the khaki coat/blouse. Aside from that, Chiefs didn't have "officer's stripes."

[Grumpy]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

No such animal. The Navy no longer wears the khaki coat/blouse. Aside from that, Chiefs didn't have "officer's stripes."

I know that Dave.  What I was referring to was the photo of the blouse he posted.  It  was double breasted and had the silver officer's stripes and epaulets.  The old chief's uniform was double breasted without the other stuff.  Does that help in clearing it up?

[SarDragon]

Mostly. That uni was a PITA to wear, and, IMHO, is ugly. My dad wore it, and really disliked it.

Since it's not a current uniform, it will be expensive to adopt because of the nasty old economy of scale issue.

[Panache]

It would also be very expensive too. Small market = Big costs.

Probably not any more expensive than the blues.  "Silver Tan" is a fairly common color in law enforcement uniforms, and all major uniform suppliers (Galls, Quartermaster, etc.) carry both uniform shirts and pants in that color.

Probably not so for uniform jackets or BDU's ("KBDU?") though.

EDIT:  Turns out there are quite a bit of khaki BDU's out there.  More than Woodland Camo.  Go figure.

[Shuman 14]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

But it's in NAVY blue not AIR FORCE blue.

My point is that someone had to special order the Air Force blue cloth in a double breasted naval/FD style when that coat was authorized.

So the argument that ordering an old style USAF cut uniform coat in Khaki cloth is "too" expensive to consider... holds no water.

[Shuman 14]

So to move on... does anyone like my idea idea of a khaki/silver tan Corporate Uniform to replace the current ones and the USAF Style one as a single uniform for all CAP Senior Members?

Ah, gee, I probably would vote "no ", if it was the one and only approved uniform, and the polo was eliminated as an option. But if you can get your idea adopted, I wouldn't run screaming away, either. It'd look okay, probably wear well enough. Probably get us a little bit of psychological/cultural distance from big blue, too.

Not a wholly bad thing, right? Not a divorce, just germinate a little attitude change? Run things a little more like a VFD, a little less like a USAF org? Note I said a LITTLE less, before anyone blows a seam. . .

Fair enough from my stand point.

BTW, I wouldn't eliminate the polo option, just change the trouser color to khaki from grey to go with the whole "Corporate branding" color of khaki.

Oh, cool! Sure, yes, you have my vote, then. One base uniform, with some flexibility for the more casual among us - the ones who can go many months between needing anything other than polo or bag? You strike a noble compromise. . .

I wonder if the conversation  here can have an impact on the reality, though. . .and if it's even worth the energy and time to fuss with it?

Like my girlfriend likes to says... dreams and wishes are free so keep on dreaming all you want.

My thought is as long as discussion does take place then change can happen... if it stops nothing ever will.

[Shuman 14]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

No such animal. The Navy no longer wears the khaki coat/blouse. Aside from that, Chiefs didn't have "officer's stripes."

I think you need to check that, I think the Navy re-adopted a khaki uniform as an optional uniform a couple of years back.

I've seen JCS Chairman ADM Mike Mullen on TV in khaki.

[Shuman 14]

It would also be very expensive too. Small market = Big costs.

Probably not any more expensive than the blues.  "Silver Tan" is a fairly common color in law enforcement uniforms, and all major uniform suppliers (Galls, Quartermaster, etc.) carry both uniform shirts and pants in that color.

Probably not so for uniform jackets or BDU's ("KBDU?") though.

Not as hard as you think:

http://bdu.com/khaki-clothing

Seriously just Google "khaki dress uniforms" "khaki police uniforms" or "tan police uniforms" under shopping and you'll find khaki or silver tan dress/service uniform shirts and trousers from numerous sources.

Now the finding a blouse/jacket might be a little harder but I found shirts and pants in about five seconds... and most are cheaper than the current USAF light blue shirts and USAF blue trousers that CAP wears.

[SarDragon]

It would also be very expensive too. Small market = Big costs.

Probably not any more expensive than the blues.  "Silver Tan" is a fairly common color in law enforcement uniforms, and all major uniform suppliers (Galls, Quartermaster, etc.) carry both uniform shirts and pants in that color.

Probably not so for uniform jackets or BDU's ("KBDU?") though.

The operative word here is uniform. Remember that.

The AF has specifications (spec) for their uniforms. They procure them in large lots, made to those specs. Without any specs, getting uniforms from more than one civilian supplier will lead to non-uniformity. Those large lots also allow a lower price. Trying to supply 66,000 members will cost a lot more per uniform than supplying ten times that many. You need to consider how frequently the uniform is worn (much less for a CAP uniform, so it lasts a lot longer), and what the turnover rate is (AF more people at a higher rate).

My 66,000 figure assumes the entire membership. Cut that in half for just SMs. Cut it in half again for just the large and the fuzzy members.

We need to find something that is uniform, readily available, and acceptable to the AF. This is not a trivial task.

[SarDragon]

How about US Navy Chief Petty Officer's blouse minus the officer's stripe and epaulet?

But it's in NAVY blue not AIR FORCE blue.

My point is that someone had to special order the Air Force blue cloth in a double breasted naval/FD style when that coat was authorized.

So the argument that ordering an old style USAF cut uniform coat in Khaki cloth is "too" expensive to consider... holds no water.

The coat Grumpy is talking about is the khaki coat. How did we move to the CSU coat?

I don't know the source of the CSU coats, because I wasn't allowed to wear it. I seem to recall folks complaining that it was more expensive than the AF blue coat.

As for my comments on the currency of the khaki coat, I just looked in the current USN uni reg, and it's not in there.

[Panache]

The operative word here is uniform. Remember that.

The AF has specifications (spec) for their uniforms.

I thought we were talking about something that'll be strictly CAP-only.  And last I checked, the specs on the G/W's are "a white aviator-style shirt and gray pants" with no further details.  I suspect the AF couldn't care less if our uniform was polka-dotted tights and pink tutus as long as somebody with half a brain couldn't mistake us for RealMilitary™.

[Panache]

...and once some half-asleep Airman who's too busy daydreaming salutes one of us as we walk by in our tights and tutus, the AF brass will start kvetching about how CAP is trolling for salutes and uniform changes are incoming.

[SarDragon]

The operative word here is uniform. Remember that.

The AF has specifications (spec) for their uniforms.

I thought we were talking about something that'll be strictly CAP-only.  And last I checked, the specs on the G/W's are "a white aviator-style shirt and gray pants" with no further details.  I suspect the AF couldn't care less if our uniform was polka-dotted tights and pink tutus as somebody with half a brain couldn't mistake us for RealMilitary™.

The AF apparently did care about the CSU. Look what happened.

Aviator shirt - the original spec was for the Van Heusen Aviator shirt, available from the Bookstore. When they ceased operations, the spec changed. Click the link and look at the chart. Wearing anything other than the Aviator version leads to more non-uniformity.

If we're going to adopt a new uniform combination, we need to do it right, or not do it at all.