CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[Ozzy]

I was also going to mention that it should also include authorizing the cadet first sergeant diamond, but the new 52-16 doesn't try to authorize it so its a non-issue I guess.

As to me mentioning the shirt crease, I did it because the wing patch isn't an issue anymore and because its the common practice of not just the AF but of the general population as well.

[Eclipse]

Please cite your reference for the picture with four badges being wrong.  I know it looks absolutely crazy and busy, but please show where it states only two can be above the tape on the BDU in the 39-1.  I may have read over it.

It states where two can be worn, and never mentions the pockets, ergo.

We are not in the Army, and we don't wear badges on our pockets.

[Hawk200]

REPOSTED TO FIX IMAGE ERRORS.
An everywhere issue: change of wording for regulation. Especially in 6.2 there is an issue with the wording that I have had trouble with and quite a few others have too, 6.2 says that you can wear up to four badges, taken to look like this.
(I know this image is not mine, I used it because it shows the max of what 6.2 suggests if you read that paragraph without interpretation)
Especially since there is a statement that one badge can be worn on the pocket. But what it means is one patch can be worn on the pocket, not badge. I now understand that your badges can look like this at most.
Only with a space in between the badges.

Please cite your reference for the picture with four badges being wrong.  I know it looks absolutely crazy and busy, but please show where it states only two can be above the tape on the BDU in the 39-1.  I may have read over it.

It's one of the convoluted deals with 39-1. Fig 2-17 Note 5 says that a CAP wing and a specialty insignia may be worn. Note 6 states that a military wing may be worn below a CAP wing, although it doesn't say that it's worn in place of a specialty insignia, it implies it. It's worded strangely.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Please cite your reference for the picture with four badges being wrong.  I know it looks absolutely crazy and busy, but please show where it states only two can be above the tape on the BDU in the 39-1.  I may have read over it.

I used to think the same way you are. The 39-1 reads that you can wear four badges. That is if you read it plainly. However if you read through it and decipher what the manual really means, you will come up with this;
Two skill badges above the CAPtape.
One command badge above the nametape.
That is all that is allowed on the BDU. I know, the 39-1 says that you can wear four badges/devices. So where did the fourth badge go? I have the same curiosity. My best guess is that they are taking about a specialty badge allowed on the pocket such as in CAP specialty badges (ES Communications or Safety or Cadet Programs) or in Army or USAF specialty badges (MP), however none of those are authorized on CAP BDUs. CAP specialty badges can only be worn on blues, and once you leave your specialty in the army or USAF you have to take that specialty badge off. Unlike with things such as CIB, CAB, AASLT, or ABN, those once they are earned it takes nearly God to take them away.

That is one thing that I think REALLY REALLY REALLY needs changed in the 39-1, not just section B paragraph one marked 6-2 in the 39-1, but they way the whole 39-1 is worded, it can get confusing.

[Hawk200]

Two skill badges above the CAPtape.

Correct.

One command badge above the nametape.

In actuality, no. I know Vanguard produces a cloth one, but there has yet to be any guidance for wear on the BDU. Also,  the command badge came out after the current version of 39-1. So 39-1 does not currently authorize it.

I know, the 39-1 says that you can wear four badges/devices. So where did the fourth badge go? I have the same curiosity. My best guess is that they are taking about a specialty badge allowed on the pocket such as in CAP specialty badges (ES Communications or Safety or Cadet Programs) or in Army or USAF specialty badges (MP), however none of those are authorized on CAP BDUs.

It addresses wear on the blues, but is kinda sketchy on BDUs.

CAP specialty badges can only be worn on blues, and once you leave your specialty in the army or USAF you have to take that specialty badge off. Unlike with things such as CIB, CAB, AASLT, or ABN, those once they are earned it takes nearly God to take them away.

There's some differences between what's considered specialty badges. If you're talking about Security Police, Firefighters, and similar that are worn on the pocket, those are considered "duty" badges, and are not treated or worn the same as specialty insignia. 2903's terminology has to be known. You are correct in that once that duty is no longer performed, they are no longer allowed for wear.

Now, something like a maintenance, medical, operations, etc. "occupational" badges may be worn, and for CAP purposes, they are worn as "specialty insignia." 39-1 actually gives a table on them, although it is a bit outdated.

That is one thing that I think REALLY REALLY REALLY needs changed in the 39-1, not just section B paragraph one marked 6-2 in the 39-1, but they way the whole 39-1 is worded, it can get confusing.

It's just one of many.

[sleepyboyd]

It's one of the convoluted deals with 39-1. Fig 2-17 Note 5 says that a CAP wing and a specialty insignia may be worn. Note 6 states that a military wing may be worn below a CAP wing, although it doesn't say that it's worn in place of a specialty insignia, it implies it. It's worded strangely.

I quote the 39-1

5. CAP Aviation Badges and Specialty Insignia: Embroidered, worn 1/2 inch above the cloth "Civil Air Patrol" tape worn
over the left breast pocket. If both devices are worn, aviation badges should be 1/2 inch above specialty insignia.
6. Military Aviation Badges: Embroidered (subdued or white on blue), centered 1/2 inch below the CAP
aviation badge above left breast pocket.

There is nothing stated here that leads me to believe it limits the member from wearing three or four badges.  The only limit I can see is that they must fall below the top notch of the collar.   

My point is that CAP has a very real problem in developing implied rules.  Implied rules are made by reading what the member wants to read and not what the regulation states.  This is a problem when folks like me are fine and dandy in one squadron, move to a new state, and all of a sudden, everyone reads the reg a new way... It stll says the same thing, but they "imply" different things into it.  I wear a CAP Pilot Wing, USAF Navigator Wing, and a GTL badge in BDU, in blues I only wear the CAP Pilot and USAF Navigator... because it states only 2 there...  Letter of the Law....

Rewritting this regulation and making it clear, would help make this problem go away.  If it said only two for the BDU, i'll go take one of them off...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I quote the 39-1

5. CAP Aviation Badges and Specialty Insignia: Embroidered, worn 1/2 inch above the cloth "Civil Air Patrol" tape worn
over the left breast pocket. If both devices are worn, aviation badges should be 1/2 inch above specialty insignia.
6. Military Aviation Badges: Embroidered (subdued or white on blue), centered 1/2 inch below the CAP
aviation badge above left breast pocket.

There is nothing stated here that leads me to believe it limits the member from wearing three or four badges.  The only limit I can see is that they must fall below the top notch of the collar.   

My point is that CAP has a very real problem in developing implied rules.  Implied rules are made by reading what the member wants to read and not what the regulation states.  This is a problem when folks like me are fine and dandy in one squadron, move to a new state, and all of a sudden, everyone reads the reg a new way... It stll says the same thing, but they "imply" different things into it.  I wear a CAP Pilot Wing, USAF Navigator Wing, and a GTL badge in BDU, in blues I only wear the CAP Pilot and USAF Navigator... because it states only 2 there...  Letter of the Law....

Rewritting this regulation and making it clear, would help make this problem go away.  If it said only two for the BDU, i'll go take one of them off...

No one would be more for siding with you on this one than I. I have a CIB, AASLT wings, and a GT badge, I want to wear all three, plus I am now going for MS so I can get MO, so then there will be a set of wings, I want to be able to wear all four. However as it has been explained to me, only two, you have to read the whole reg, and yes there is some deciphering to do... a lot.

[peter rabbit]

CAP specialty badges can only be worn on blues

From the 39-1 re: white aviator shirt
5.   CAP Specialty Badges:  Worn centered on left breast pocket.  Females also have the option of wearing specialty badges 1/2 inch above the pocket (beneath the aviation badge) if they prefer.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

CAP specialty badges can only be worn on blues

From the 39-1 re: white aviator shirt
5.   CAP Specialty Badges:  Worn centered on left breast pocket.  Females also have the option of wearing specialty badges 1/2 inch above the pocket (beneath the aviation badge) if they prefer.

Ok smart elleck, blues, is just a short hand term for dress uniforms, blues short sleeve, blues long sleeve, blues with service jacket, and corporate dress uniform. Happy?

[sleepyboyd]

Heres a suggestion... and i'll prolly get shot for saying this but, how about we go to three uniforms.

White Aviators w/ or w/o blazer for dress
Polo's and grey slacks
BDU's...

The USAF, USMC, US Navy, and US Army have all dropped the BDU from thier uniform inventory... so why do we still treat it like a AF style Uniform? 

Then, we can all be "Uniform".... imagine that!  theres nothing like showing up to a CAP event and having seniors in polo's, aviators, and blues, a few cadets in the crowd in bdu's, a few blue flight suits, a few green flightsuits... all in "uniform"

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Heres a suggestion... and i'll prolly get shot for saying this but, how about we go to three uniforms.

White Aviators w/ or w/o blazer for dress
Polo's and grey slacks
BDU's...

your right, you will get alot of flak for that. Why is there such a problem with having USAF style uniforms? Really I want someone to actually say why they don't want us to have USAF style unfiorms, other than the really old worn out excuse of not everyone can wear them.

The USAF, USMC, US Navy, and US Army have all dropped the BDU from thier uniform inventory... so why do we still treat it like a AF style Uniform? 

Because we haven't been phased into the new ABU yet, eventually, most likely, it will happen. And let's not turn this into an ABU vs Multicam issue. That has been said many times, we will eventually be transitioned into ABU.

Then, we can all be "Uniform".... imagine that!  theres nothing like showing up to a CAP event and having seniors in polo's, aviators, and blues, a few cadets in the crowd in bdu's, a few blue flight suits, a few green flightsuits... all in "uniform"

If you have that many different uniforms at one time then there is a scheduling issue that needs to be addressed. Either field uniforms, or dress uniforms.

[sleepyboyd]

No one said anything about multicam...

You look at a US Army unit in formation... odds are, they are all in the same uniform.
You look at a USMC unit in formation... odds are they are all in the same uniform.
You look at a USAF unit in fomration... odds are they are all either in flightsuits or BDU's... or all in blues.

Why do we need two different uniform lines... one for those who can wear AF style and one for those who cannot.  I always get weird looks from new members when I explain this in Level one...and most throw up thier hands and just buy the Polo shirt after looking at the 39-1.

and the multiple uniforms... go to a SAREX... Base staff can have polos/aviators/blues on, and ground teams are in BDU/Blue Utilities, and flight crews can have Blue/Green flightsuits or Polo's on.

I wear the AF style uniform, mainly because I just canabalize old work uniforms into CAP uniforms.  I truly want to hear others opinions on having such a varied "uniform" appearance

[SarDragon]

As long as the AF says that our overweight and barbate members are not allowed to wear their uniform, we will continue to have two styles.

[Eclipse]

The USAF, USMC, US Navy, and US Army have all dropped the BDU from thier uniform inventory... so why do we still treat it like a AF style Uniform? 

USAF - still wearing BDU's until Nov. 2011

[Spaceman3750]

The USAF, USMC, US Navy, and US Army have all dropped the BDU from thier uniform inventory... so why do we still treat it like a AF style Uniform? 

USAF - still wearing BDU's until Nov. 2011

Also, the general public still treats it as a military uniform, and will continue to do so for a couple of decades. We all know that perception trumps reality every time.

[sleepyboyd]

USAF - still wearing BDU's until Nov. 2011

Correct.  The USAF is also dropping Black Boots and Black/Brown shirts in flightsuits on that same date.

As long as the AF says that our overweight and barbate members are not allowed to wear their uniform, we will continue to have two styles.

If we dropped the AF style uniforms, we wouldn't have a problem with everyone not "fitting" into a uniform.  we would also have a more distinctive look, allowing us to develop an independent image for CAP.

Again, just playing devils advocate... i like my AF uniform... cause it' free...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No one said anything about multicam...

You look at a US Army unit in formation... odds are, they are all in the same uniform.
You look at a USMC unit in formation... odds are they are all in the same uniform.
You look at a USAF unit in fomration... odds are they are all either in flightsuits or BDU's... or all in blues.

Why do we need two different uniform lines... one for those who can wear AF style and one for those who cannot.  I always get weird looks from new members when I explain this in Level one...and most throw up thier hands and just buy the Polo shirt after looking at the 39-1.

Don't they have to at least have the minimum uniform of blues/aviator uniform?

Besides, why do we bother with what Army, or Marines do, as has been said here many times, we are not Army or Marines. Our connection is USAF, so long as we are connected with USAF, we should and most likely will have the USAF style uniforms. I still don't see the problem with having these different uniforms. All it does is show that we are accepting of everyone.

[Hawk200]

There is nothing stated here that leads me to believe it limits the member from wearing three or four badges.

I see your point, but I can't agree on four badges. Now, considering the way it's written, I can understand the inference of three as follows (from tape up): specialty insignia, military wings, CAP wings.

In general, CAP uniforms are derivatives of Air Force ones. More than two badges above the tape is not the norm for the Air Force. There are people that have been shown wearing numerous badges, even over the nametape. To many, it could be overcompensating to do so. You may not believe that's it's not forbidden to wear three or four badges; but whether or not it's legal, you'll probably end up with people taking a negative view of you.

The only limit I can see is that they must fall below the top notch of the collar.

That stipulation applies only to the blues, 6-3. Description and Proper Placement on the Service Dress Uniform is what applies.

It wouldn't surprise me if the original writers were employees completely unfamiliar with military uniforms, and have never worn one.

[sleepyboyd]

Don't they have to at least have the minimum uniform of blues/aviator uniform?

Correct.  39-1, 1-5 does state that each member will equip themselves with the basic uniform (note sigular).  It then interestingly identifies two basic uniforms which are listed in subparagraph a and b below that.

Besides, why do we bother with what Army, or Marines do, as has been said here many times, we are not Army or Marines. Our connection is USAF, so long as we are connected with USAF, we should and most likely will have the USAF style uniforms. 

The reference to the Army and Marines was a reference to how those organizations maintain a uniform image across thier organization.  No statement was made that we should in some way, mimic those services.  It was used to point out that CAP does not appear uniform across it's organization. 

I still don't see the problem with having these different uniforms.  All it does is show that we are accepting of everyone.

What is more accepting than for everyone to wear the same uniform... Big, Small, Bearded or Shaven...

You may not believe that's it's not forbidden to wear three or four badges; but whether or not it's legal, you'll probably end up with people taking a negative view of you.

Oh well...

The only limit I can see is that they must fall below the top notch of the collar.

That stipulation applies only to the blues, 6-3. Description and Proper Placement on the Service Dress Uniform is what applies.

I stand corrected. 

[Hawk200]

The only limit I can see is that they must fall below the top notch of the collar.

That stipulation applies only to the blues, 6-3. Description and Proper Placement on the Service Dress Uniform is what applies.

I stand corrected.

It's easy to miss. I've found reading a chapter a day until I finish with it helps. Do it a couple times a year, and make sure you get the ICLs.