Forget about CAP getting ABUs

[JWilson]

And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.

So one free uniform isn't enough for you?

You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?

The USAF is being cut.  There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?

"Throw us a bone"?

Nice.

I'd like free uniforms, too.  But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide.  The money has to come from somewhere.  And that is ultimately the taxpayers.

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

[jeders]

And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.

So one free uniform isn't enough for you?

You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?

The USAF is being cut.  There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?

"Throw us a bone"?

Nice.

I'd like free uniforms, too.  But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide.  The money has to come from somewhere.  And that is ultimately the taxpayers.

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

What he's saying is that these uniforms cost money. One additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.

We would all love to get more free uniforms, but right now it simply isn't possible. In a few years, maybe; but when times are tough, luxuries like multiple free cadet uniforms get cut.

[Eclipse]

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

The portion of the program we are discussing is the cadets, and they are not a significant factor in the ES aspect of CAP.  Involved, yes.  The key operators?  No, especially if you want to have an ROI discussion.

[vento]

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

If that logic actually holds, then there should be free uniforms for SM as with exception of a few cadets most ES are performed by SMs. The free uniform is part of the CADET program, not part of Emergency Services missions. Most members volunteer not only their time and knowledge, but also monetarily to equip him/herself. As volunteers, the country does NOT owe us anything. Period.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I realize that I am throwing gas on to a fire but oh well......

CAP as a whole should scrap the military uniform altogether.  We are a civilian organization with a military parent.

We can do better if we adopted SAR specific or wilderness (i.e. field tough) clothing.

Heavy duty pants, heavy duty blaze orange or green shirts.  Gear that is obtainable for cheaper cost than Army Surplus garbage.   Haven't had time to work out the numbers, but somthing is better than what is now.

I am ready for your flames.....

[Hawk200]

We can do better if we adopted SAR specific or wilderness (i.e. field tough) clothing.

That's a fail, argument wise. Military field clothing is fairly rugged.

Heavy duty pants, heavy duty blaze orange or green shirts.  Gear that is obtainable for cheaper cost than Army Surplus garbage.   Haven't had time to work out the numbers, but somthing is better than what is now.

Time for you to work out the numbers. I'd think the SAR gear would be more expensive. Best case, equivalent in cost.

Second, SAR isn't our only mission. Dressing everyone like it is would be another nightmare.

[Eclipse]

^ I don't disagree, especially for ES, however I think we need to be in >a< uniform, so it won't really fix the cost issue, if anything it might make it worse.

We should not be doing missions in whatever is at the top of our civilian hamper.  We have enough issues with attitude and professionalism as it is, start letting people show up in their MMA shirts and flip flops and we're done.

[sparks]

Commercial "field " gear/unting equipment could be just as expensive as BDUs. A significant factor to consider however is that cadets like wearing military uniforms. So you can consider it a recruiting tool. Whether they get a chance to work in the field is something else. That is a decision that's up to their local squadron and wing. Every organization seems to have a different idea about cadets and ES involvement and training that's offered.

[SarDragon]

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

Ever hear the acronym "TANSTAAFL"? There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Who is going to pay for all these free uniforms you want people to have? The money has to come from somewhere. Neither it nor the uniforms grow on trees.

[jimmydeanno]

One additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.

No it doesn't.  It's not even the same pot of money. 

Giving a cadet a uniform doesn't stop the Air Force from buying an F-22.

Support services to spouses are covered by Non-appropriated funds raised by AAFES/fundraisers by the spouses groups, etc.

CAPs grant is only overseen by the Air Force, if CAP gets a larger grant, it doesn't mean that the Air Force budget takes a hit somewhere.

[Major Carrales]

Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.

No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.

We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob." 

All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things.  Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.

[JayT]

Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.

No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.

We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob." 

All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things.  Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.

Major, with all due respect, CAP isn't the Boys and Girls Club. Virtually every volunteering opportunity requires some investment. Heck, I had to buy my own gear for my paid private ambulance company.  CAP has never said "We're here to take disadvantaged youth and use Air Force funds to turn their lives around."

[jeders]

One additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.

No it doesn't.  It's not even the same pot of money. 

Actually it is the same pot, it comes from the U.S. federal budget. Despite what Congress and the Fed would have us believe, you cannot just print more money, it comes from somewhere. While those may not have been the best specific examples, the point remains valid. More money for x means less money for y, regardless of what x and y are.

[jimmydeanno]

Actually it is the same pot, it comes from the U.S. federal budget. Despite what Congress and the Fed would have us believe, you cannot just print more money, it comes from somewhere. While those may not have been the best specific examples, the point remains valid. More money for x means less money for y, regardless of what x and y are.

I understand that.  However, I think it is disingenuous to imply that the Air Force is somehow limiting our budget so that they can spend it flying missions.  The Air Force doesn't get more money in their budget because they short-changed us throughout the year and now have excess appropriated funds.

The Air Force simply ensures that we are spending the appropriated monies that we are given on things that they are allowed to be spent on.  So we are alloted "X" amount for aircraft procurement and maintenance, "X" amount for something else, "Y" amount for program support, etc.

The money that's there to support programs, CAP budgets on its own (once they get the approval that appropriated funds can be spent on that type of thing).  If CAP *really* wanted to, they could reallocate their budget to include providing both Blues and BDUs, including shoes, if they so desired. 

Remember, not more than a few years ago, the FCUP included shoes.  The decision was made that they could service about 1/3 more cadets with free uniforms by excluding shoes.  The "Air Force" didn't remove the shoes from the program, we did. 

So, to get cadets free BDUs there would be a few options.

1) Change the FCUP to BDUs instead of blues.  In this situation though, we wouldn't be able to partner with the folks at Lackland, since the Air Force doesn't stock BDUs anymore.  This would require us to either create an inventory, or use a third party vendor (like Vanguard) to fill those orders, most likely increasing costs even more.

2) Cut other CAP programs to pay for BDUs.  If we removed all funding for NCSAs, etc we could probably afford to offer BDUs.  The same issue above would occur about the supply issue.  So, we could practically eliminate our educational program support to give some clothes, but what would our cadets wear those shiny uniforms to?

3) Offer both.  We *could* offer both if we had a larger revenue stream on the non-appropriated side.  If we had an additional 500K per year we could issue ~4,000 sets of BDUs (~6,000 if you remove the boots )  But then, would that really be the most efficient use of the additional money?

[jeders]

I didn't mean that the air force is limiting our budget to fly more missions, but rather that everyone's budget is limited right now and we shouldn't be asking for more, we should be grateful that we still have what we have. And I do remember when the FCUP had shoes included, I also remember that about half-way through the year, almost every year, they ran out of money because of the shoes.

[lordmonar]

And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.

So one free uniform isn't enough for you?

You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?

The USAF is being cut.  There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?

"Throw us a bone"?

Nice.

I'd like free uniforms, too.  But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide.  The money has to come from somewhere.  And that is ultimately the taxpayers.

You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?

The Cadet Program does not do the majority of the inladn SAR in the country.......sorry that is just the way it is.....and Senior Members don't get anything free from the USAF.

While I would agree that it would be nice if the FCUP provided a set BDUs and a set of blues.....I don't think we are in any position to demand them.

What needs to get recified as far as costs to the cadets is that according to regulations we can't require cadets to wear any uniform we don't provide.....and yet we still require BDUs for encampment and other manditory activities.

I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this dicrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.

[Ned]

I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.

Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?


I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.

That leaves only two other choices:  simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.

What am I missing?   Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?

[Eclipse]

I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC.  That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.

Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs.  We have way more issues with cadets
graduating in the unofficial "alternate uniform" of white dress shirt and black pants because of a delay in the FCU.

In fact, the issue of "we can't require" comes up here all the time, and I don't think I have ever had to address it in the real world.

[lordmonar]

I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.

Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?


I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.

That leaves only two other choices:  simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.

What am I missing?   Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?

I would just remove the prohibition in 39-1.  It is not a "problem" so much as just one of those things that the member's who are staffing a regulation change should be looking into.

It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations?  Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?

One could argue that because 39-1 says we can't require a cadet to wear a unifrom that is not provided.....that they could not wear low quarters or their insignia because they were not provided.

I know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.

[tsrup]

I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.

Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?


I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.

That leaves only two other choices:  simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.

What am I missing?   Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?

I would just remove the prohibition in 39-1.  It is not a "problem" so much as just one of those things that the member's who are staffing a regulation change should be looking into.

It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations?  Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?

One could argue that because 39-1 says we can't require a cadet to wear a unifrom that is not provided.....that they could not wear low quarters or their insignia because they were not provided.

I know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.

You can then argue that senior members don't have to wear any uniform period because they are not provided.

Activities can dictate the uniforms that are required for the activity (so long as they are in accordance with 39-1). 



Has anyone here ever experienced a problem with cadets not having the prescribed uniforms for encampment?  And if you did what did you do in that situation? 
No sarcasm implied, this is a serious question, have you had the problem, and what did you do (if anything) to solve it?