What is the Geneva Convention status of CAP members?

Started by skymaster, June 10, 2010, 02:04:09 AM

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Smithsonia

#60
In the Order of Battle CAP is just ahead of the Daughters of the American Revolution. If we ARE invaded by a foreign power, it is more likely to be Martian Women looking for Male Earthlings as Breeding Stock, than it is a to be a Geneva Convention Signatory. By the way, this is the good news.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Major Lord

That is a beautiful piece of reasoning, and a wonderfully astute bit of threat assessment staff work: Most of us completely overlooked the Martian Husbandry aspects of a possible invasion. It also has nothing to do with the Geneva Convention Status of CAP members. Invasion was just one of several considerations in exploring CAP's level of protections as it relates to the GC.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Smithsonia

^^^^^ Maj. Lord;
I was quite serious about the Martian Women. Apparently it was quite a problem in the 50s. Lots of film on the subject, mostly black and white. But, I missed it due to immaturity.

We are not belligerents now, except on Captalk. We are civilians. If that status changes as it did during WW2 (and I am sure we would be notified), then we would are under the Geneva Convention as enemy combatants. Surfs up! Who's for some Waterboarding?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Short Field on June 21, 2010, 04:33:42 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 21, 2010, 01:34:24 AM
Civilians accompanying an armed force are POW's.
A lot of them were named after General Hooker during the Civil War.  I don't believe they were treated as POWs nor would be today.

OK, then after 6 years as an Army staff officer working on POW issues I don't know what I'm talking about.
Another former CAP officer

Major Lord

John,

Like the Arizona Immigration law, it appears that most of our members have not taken the time to read the GC, or to familiarize themselves with the laws of armed conflict. Why should they? They don't think that there is any jeopardy associated with putting on the uniform and acting as a volunteer force in support of the armed services. With any luck, the evil Canadians won't try to swarm across the border, rounding up CAP Officers for happy camps....One nice thing about having a defined GC status is that it allows the Hague to hang the Cannucks if they waterboard us, or shoot us out of hand. ( At least after the fact...too bad for us!) 

Even terrorists have a GC status, although not one likely to encourage kindly treatment ( except by certain like minded people in the U.S.)

Like Ned suggested, this is for the most part a hypothetical discussion, but even so I think that this is a subject that should be at least touched upon in a new CAP members training. The Soviets sent the secret police to execute a bunch of 13 year old cadets in the forest of Katyn, I wonder if those kids ever understood the danger of just wearing a uniform? As a guy who has worn a variety of uniforms, I have never found one that made me the safer for doing so.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Smithsonia

#65
Police, doctors, nurses, firemen, sanitation workers, bus drivers, air line pilots, judges, high school football teams, priests, bell boys, waiters, etc. All wear uniforms. Some serve the military. None are enemy combatants. All could be shot if their actions are considered hostile by the combatants. But they won't be shot because they were in uniform, except by accident or by misbehavior according to the Geneva Convention.

In every war we (America) have changed the rules. At least since the beginning of warfare the rules have been considered flexible. This is called interpretation, reinterpretation, or misinterpretation of the Geneva Convention. It depends upon who wins and who writes the history. Although before the Geneva Convention - native Atlantan's curse Sherman to this day as a war criminal, for his all out war and burning of their town. War is hell, period. However the referee is usually history and not the courts. Courts get the generalisimo and leave history and God to sort out the rest.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

lordmonar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 21, 2010, 06:27:45 PM
How on earth are CAP personnel going to get captured by enemy forces?

For that matter, why?

Assuming an invasion, wouldn't the enemy have done its intelligence homework, particularly regarding "Order of Battle" type info?

Sure they would....and right there under the paramilitary column would be the GCAUX, CAP, Boy Scouts, SDAs and a whole host of other organisations that any invader would have to deal with if they wanted to hold the U.S.

QuoteI would hope, nay, even pray, that an invading force had a lot more on their plate to worry about from US Armed Forces (known on CT as "RM") to bother running about the countryside rounding up CAP members.

Sure they would....but what if Eisenhower ignored the Hitler Youth (yes I know a Nazi reference...but it is Jermain in this instance)?  Sure they were not really that important in the bigger scale of things...but they did represent a threat that had to be dealt with.

QuoteOf course, so many of us are lt col and above, the other side might be deluded (as some of us are, occasionally!) into believing we're important!

Now that is not fair at all!  This is not a discussion trying to make ourselves more important....it is simply a theoretical discussion....that is all.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ZigZag911

My point is, wouldn't it make more sense to round up people with access to weapons before getting around to us, Red Cross and Kiwanis???

lordmonar

Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 22, 2010, 03:52:47 AM
My point is, wouldn't it make more sense to round up people with access to weapons before getting around to us, Red Cross and Kiwanis???

They may do that too.....but Joe blow with a gun is an illegal combatant.....Joe Bag of Donuts in CAP is a legal combatant and is afforded POW status.

The point of the conversation is not what some hypothetical enemy may do....but what the law says about "civilian" organisations who are fighting the invaders.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Short Field

Quote from: lordmonar on June 22, 2010, 03:59:03 AM
....but Joe blow with a gun is an illegal combatant.....Joe Bag of Donuts in CAP is a legal combatant and is afforded POW status.
Joe Bag of Donuts in CAP is a CIVILIAN.  If he picks up a weapon he becomes an illegal combatant unless he joins some other organization that affords him combatant status.  Sorry but the NRA is not one of those organizations.  The reason Joe Bag of Donuts in a CAP uniform is still a civilian is that our charter defines us that way. 

The Hitler Youth comparison is invalid. 
  1.  The Hitler Youth was the junior organization of the Sturmabteilung (SA) or Brownshirts.  The Brownshirts have about as much relationship to CAP as the KKK does. 
  2.  Membership in the Hitler Youth was compulsory for all German males after 1936. 
  3.  Training closely resembled military training, with weapons training, assault course circuits and basic tactics.  This was not your NRA firearms training.
  4. In 1943, the Hitler Youth changed from being an auxiliary to being a military reserve from which manpower could be drawn to replace the losses in military units.  By 1945, 12 year olds were being drafted into regular military units.  With the exception of Hitler Youth who assisted AA units, they fought as regular soldiers.
  5.  They were disbanded after the war as part of the denazification process.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Major Lord

How CAP defines itself internally is not relevant. If you are wearing the AF Uniform and assisting the AF, and fall into enemy hands, your status would almost certainly be that of "volunteer forces". Stupidly unarmed volunteer forces, admittedly.......I am sure that Al Queda does not consider themselves to be unlawful combatants, but their own self-description is not the issue. Its the GC that sets the rules. If the Boy Scouts or the Salvation Army decided to assist the military in carrying out their mission, they would probably be considered volunteer forces too.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Short Field

Quote from: Major Lord on June 22, 2010, 06:30:48 AM
How CAP defines itself internally is not relevant.
That is how Congress defines CAP in our Congressional Charter - not how CAP defines CAP. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

a2capt

Unless you're on the other side, then it's 'Godloose' ;-)

Major Lord

Quote from: Short Field on June 22, 2010, 06:41:22 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on June 22, 2010, 06:30:48 AM
How CAP defines itself internally is not relevant.
That is how Congress defines CAP in our Congressional Charter - not how CAP defines CAP.

Yes, I know. Congress also defined Carbon Dioxide as a "Greenhouse Gas" and Africans as subhuman. Our internal definition of CAP has no bearing on how we would be treated as POW's. CAP defines CAP ( largely, but not entirely) by the Congressional Charter.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

SarDragon

Quote from: a2capt on June 22, 2010, 07:36:04 AM
Unless you're on the other side, then it's 'Godloose' ;-)

That would be the opposite of 'Godtight.' I think you meant 'Godlose.'
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

skymaster

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 21, 2010, 07:51:36 AM
Quote from: skymaster on June 20, 2010, 09:42:42 PM
For example, under state law, the ONLY persons allowed to wear military uniforms (or clothing articles of a current military uniform) ......

  So, where does CAP fit legally currently is my question?


Our authorization to wear the uniform is codified in Federal law, which trumps State law.

My point is, that in the past, we DID have at least some legal coverage from Ma Blue in relation to our status, and COULD theoretically have fallen legally under Sections 1) or 2) as a MILITARY auxiliary under Federal Code.  However, in the almost three decades of CAP service I have personally seen the organization go off on a tangent from the military roots of our predecessors, from a full time AF Auxiliary to an "only on an AFAM Auxiliary", which could easily jeopardize our "military auxiliary" status under Federal Law if we are not careful.  And besides, such a case would be tried in a state or local court, not a Federal court.

Smithsonia

This should help clarify some of this discussion.
SEE HERE:

WWII 1943 Prisoner of War Operations (When CAP had a belligerent role) these are huge files.

PART I:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33419711/WWII-1943-Prisoner-of-War-Operations-I

PART 2:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33419824/WWII-1943-Prisoner-of-War-Operations-II

Source:  Pentagon, Washington, DC

This documentation is part of the huge collection of Lt. Col. Mark Hess of the Georgia Wing.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Short Field

Quote from: skymaster on June 22, 2010, 04:08:40 PM
And besides, such a case would be tried in a state or local court, not a Federal court.
That should really make the prosecutor famous as he tries to convict people in state court for conduct specifically allowed by Federal law. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

vmstan

Let's say the US is invaded in some "Red Dawn" type scenario while I'm on my way to a CAP meeting in BDUs. Do you really think Comrade Chang is going to give a rats behind about what my legal status is? No, he's going to see me, rank, and start blasting away.

Let's say the US is attacked (again) by terrorist nut jobs, while I'm on my way to anything... wearing anything... they're going to kill me anyway.
MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4