What is the Geneva Convention status of CAP members?

Started by skymaster, June 10, 2010, 02:04:09 AM

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skymaster

     I was recently speaking to a member of the State Defense Force of the state that I live in, who was trying to talk me into joining the SDF.  He knew of my long CAP service, and thought that I might be interested, because of the parallels between the two groups.  I told him (in a respectful manner) that I really only had time to be affiliated with one quasi-military group that performs SAR missions on behalf of a branch of the military.  He then "corrected" me, (in his view) that CAP "is a completely civilian CLUB", and has no more "military affiliation than the Salvation Army", but that the (volunteer, unpaid) SDF actually is "REAL miltary" under the law, and he proceeded to show me his official state-government-issued SDF ID card.  It was EXACTLY like the the current military CAC ID card (but without the chip), and even listed a Geneva Conventions Status on the back of the card.   (BTW, I have seen many CG Aux ID cards in my time, and the ones that I have seen recently also show the CG Aux Geneva Conventions status on them as well, so it is not unknown amongst military auxiliaries for that status to be shown on official ID cards).  When I had the opportunity to compare my ID, it has no such status.  That got me to thinking that 1)Do we, as members of the official civilian auxiliary of the AF, have a Geneva Conventions status, and 2) If so, why is it not shown on our official ID, and 3) How is it that the DoD has NO problem issuing a CAC format ID card to members of a State Defense Force (complete with said GC status, grade, etc.), and yet the Air Force gives CAP all kinds of grief over an ID card design of EXACTLY the same design and format that the DoD issues to SDF members?  I mean, even members of the Civil Reserve Air Fleet are issued CAC cards (including with discrectionary military grades) of the same format. I'm just wondering.

Cecil DP

1. DOD doesn't issue ID cards to the SDF, the state does (hence the name State Defense Force) SDF has no federal  affiliation. If they did they would be "National Guard, rather than state.(2) CG AUx has a GC status, because they routinely go out on patrols with the Coast Guard and according to some of the reports on CapTAlk can be activated to serve in almost any capacity within the CG. 3. CAP doesn't have an active duty mission, nor can we be activated to serve on Active duty as members of the USAF therefore no need for a Geneva Convention status. Though we did have that status in WWII when Sub patrols were an everyday event.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

RiverAux

There is no legal reason that CAP couldn't be performing missions equivalent to what CG Aux members do, so I don't see that as a factor.  For example, there is no legal reason that CAP couldn't have translators that could be "activated" to go serve at  an overseas AFB and help translate, similar to what CG Aux translators do. 

But, I wouldn't worry too much about the SDF member's comments -- he obviously doesn't know what he is talking about in regards to CAP which might lead me to believe he really doesn't know what his SDF is all about either.

Major Lord

In the unlikely even that a CAP member was taken prisoner while acting on any mission in support of USAF, or even just because we are uniformed, its most likely that we would be considered prisoners of war under Article 4 of the GC. Lets say we went to war against the evil land of Canada, and while on a SAR mission, by happen-stance, we had to make a forced landing. Our status as volunteer forces or those accompanying volunteer forces ( contractors, etc.) would provide us some protection. I don't think we could play the "Just like the Salvation Army" card with much success, even if we had the good fortune(?) to fight a signatory to the GC. Islamic Countries would try us under Sharia law, and they would most likely kill us in unspeakable ways...Haji don't surf.

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Slim

Quote from: skymaster on June 10, 2010, 02:04:09 AM
He knew of my long CAP service, and thought that I might be interested, because of the parallels between the two groups.

Sounds to me like someone looking for the SDF version of a recruiting ribbon.

QuoteHe then "corrected" me, (in his view) that CAP "is a completely civilian CLUB", and has no more "military affiliation than the Salvation Army", but that the (volunteer, unpaid) SDF actually is "REAL miltary" under the law...

::scratching head::

I guess I'm missing the disconnect here.  If CAP and the SDF share some parallel lines, then how can we be a completely civilian club?  What's the parallel?  We both wear uniforms?



Slim

lordmonar

From my LOAC training (now three years old).....in the very, very, very, highly improbable, unlikely and only exists in the fantasies of legal theorists....event that the U.S. were invaded by say Canada or Mexico, CAP units, facilities and personnel could be lawful combatants and would be afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention.

Quote1.Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict
2.Members of militias not under the command of the armed forces, with the following traits:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3.Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4.Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

We could be considered a militia...i.e. civilians who support their government/military.
We have a chain of command.
We have fixed distinctive signs (uniforms, white vans and red,white & blue aircraft).
We carry our arms (our aircraft are considered arms) openly.
We conduct ourselves within the laws of the U.S. which conform to the LOAC.

So.....if there ever was a war in the U.S.  (ala Wolverines) then we would be lawful combatant.

Your I.D. card does not make you a legal combatant.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Major Lord

I personally would eat my gun before being allowing myself to be taken prisoner by Canadians.....

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Major Lord on June 10, 2010, 04:51:41 AM
I personally would eat my gun before being allowing myself to be taken prisoner by Canadians.....

Major Lord

I know a couple of Canucks, we would do a super-secret squirrel black op and bust you out sir :). No need for such rash actions ;D.

Eclipse

Anyone with about $1500 (or less if you find it surplus) can buy a machine that can crank out ID cards that can look like anything you want.
I used to run one for my employer.

They can then print anything they want on the back.

Neither is an indicator of our status, and were anything to happen where LOAC is up for discussion in a CAP context, either our status would be changed by Congress, or we're in such deep doodoo that its a moot point anyway.

Why people entertain these discussions is beyond me (outside good-natured coffee house banter), and your SDF friend clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

"That Others May Zoom"

raivo


CAP Member, 2000-20??
USAF Officer, 2009-2018
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."

JoeTomasone

And if it's a pissing contest he seeketh, remind him that on AFAM, you are an instrumentality of the United States, not just one of them.  :)


The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 10, 2010, 06:21:29 AM
And if it's a pissing contest he seeketh, remind him that on AFAM, you are an instrumentality of the United States, not just one of them.  :)

I had that happen around the time I first joined CAP.

An SDF recruiter was promising me everything on a silver platter, garnished with Warrant Officer bars.

When I told him I was joining CAP, he went ballistic:

"They're not military, we are"..."they don't have real rank, we do"..."all they do is play Air Force."

But of course not all SDF'ers are like that, though the majority of the ones I've met seem to be field grade officers...
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

O-Rex

It's all in title 10, and title 14 for the CGAUX.

CAP members don't deploy or augment (and don't anybody start touting the VSAF-thing: any job you're doing wearing dockers isn't going to put you in vicinity of a hostile force, and historically it's been a while since the bad-guys have conducted POW round-ups at Wright-Pat or Lackland.....)

IMO, your SDF Pal is nothing more than an off-brand wannabee doing the my-quasi-military-organization-is-better-than-yours routine.  His "SDF Boss" is probably some 500 lb self-appointed six-star general who's "commission" was printed on the same equipt you friends ID card came from.

The proof in the pudding is when he gets hurt doing his SDF-thing on "official business," who foots the doctor-bill??  Betcha he and his ins. company does.

Like someone previously posted: with a good computer, printer and a little imagination, you can rule the world or wreak havoc.


RRLE

Quote.(2) CG AUx has a GC status

Just about everyone has a GC status.  What is written on the Aux ID isn't much.

The statements all appear on the back of the card.

At the very bottm right Is: "Geneva Conventions Identification Card - Form 2650A". All that means is the card contains the minimum information required by the GC.

A box in the middle of the card states: "Geneva Convention Category IV".  That is simply your pay advance as a POW under article 60 of the Third GC.  Category 4 from article 60: "Category IV : Majors, lieutenant-colonels, colonels or prisoners of equivalent rank: sixty Swiss francs."

There are two things written on the same side of the card that go directly to what the SDFer said.

The ink used on the back of the card is black. Written vertically, sideways and bolded (get the idea it is supposed to be distinctive) on the right back edge is: "NON-MILITARY ID".

There is some text above the 'form notice' mentioned above. It is written in standard black font. It reads:
QuoteCOAST GUARD AUXILIARY performs essential duties for the Federal Government in support roles to the UNITED STATES COAST GUARD in non-law enforcement and non-combat roles as search and rescue missions, boating education, vessel safety checks, environmental portection missions and aids to navigation.

Aside from the double mention of not being military, it is all pretty meaningless. Any civilian organization could put a similar statement on their ID card - assuming the 'essential duties' clause is correct, which it would be for CAP. I don't think our current enemies give any whit about the GC.

vmstan

MICHAEL M STANCLIFT, 1st Lt, CAP
Public Affairs Officer, NCR-KS-055, Heartland Squadron

Quote"I wish to compliment NHQ on this extremely well and clearly written regulation.
This publication once and for all should establish the uniform pattern to be followed
throughout Civil Air Patrol."

1949 Uniform and Insignia Committee comment on CAP Reg 35-4

JohnKachenmeister

Yes, this is all theory.

It is theory for two reasons:

1.  We are not at war with Canada, nor are we likely to be.  War with Mexico is a slightly less remote possibility, but still highly unlikely.

2.  In the entire history of the Law of Armed Conflict, the United States has NEVER fought an enemy that has respected the provisions of the Conventions.  Germany came close, but still had a very flawed record of compliance.  Our current enemies in the war that the current Administration refuses to acknowledge, have continued this tradition of brutal prisoner abuse.

But the status of both SDF's and CAP is clear.  SDF's should be treated as prisoners of war under the clause that establishes conditions for recognition of organized militias.  CAP, since we act (or would act in war) under the command of the USAF, would fall under the provisions of "Regular Armed Forces," and also therefore be entitled to POW status.

We would be entitled to GC status indicators on our card, but since enemy contact is highly unlikely, I think I can live without it.

We, and the SDF's, are "Combatants" unless assigned exclusively to medical or religious duty.  That is the only non-combatant status recognized under the GC.
Another former CAP officer

Major Lord

We currently have Mexican Military on parts of the U.S./Mexico International border, and weapons have been pointed by both sides, although no shots fired yet ( Except one 15 Y/O dope smuggler who made the mistake of being unfamiliar with the US Border Patrol's use of force policy) If for instance a CAP aircraft landed or strayed into Mexican airspace, I suspect that the CAP crew on board would get a warmer welcome from Al Queda.

Major Lord
Nuke Canada!
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

N Harmon

Quote from: Major Lord on June 10, 2010, 04:51:41 AM
I personally would eat my gun before being allowing myself to be taken prisoner by Canadians.....

LOL. Captalk is fun!
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

BillB

It might not be to bad to be taken prisoner by Canada. Have you ever heard of any Americans POW abused by Canada?  The most vilent Canadians have been with Americans has been in the Stanley Cup and a few baseball games (very few)
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

lordmonar

Quote from: BillB on June 10, 2010, 07:11:46 PM
It might not be to bad to be taken prisoner by Canada. Have you ever heard of any Americans POW abused by Canada?  The most vilent Canadians have been with Americans has been in the Stanley Cup and a few baseball games (very few)
They abuse them.....but they appologise as they do it! 

"where are the Donuts!?" <Whack> "Sorry about that, eh." "Where are the Donuts!?" <Whack>
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP