NCO promotions and appointment for non-prior service members.

[lordmonar]

Getting rid of FOs and making them E-1 to E-3 is just rampant age discrimination.

[davidsinn]

Even if the existing NCO system remains mostly unaltered, what would yall think about getting rid of FOs & making them E-1 to E-3 instead?

Remember that FO's are former Cadet Officers: a kid works hard to get there, then becomes a CAP Airman upon conversion to Senior Member, while someone a couple of years older joins, watches a video, maintains a pulse for 6 months and becomes a 2nd Lt?  That would be a hard pill to swallow.

Not all FO's are cadet officers. My brother is a cadet airman and turning 18 so he decided to go over to the darkside. Also I know a couple of people that joined in that age range so they had no choice but to go in as an FO.

[RiverAux]

As long as we're re-doing the entire system, lets get rid of this weired 18-21 age class where you can be a cadet or a senior.  Put anyone over 18 into senior membership and start them out in the senior program just like anyone else. 

[RickFranz]

You know I have always found it kinda funny that the job I did in the USAF (Admin) as an E-4 & E5 is the same exact job and duties they let me be a CAP Officer for.  Most of the jobs we do in CAP are just that jobs, not supervisory roles just jobs that need to be done.  I agree with others at have said we should start out like the cadets as enlisted and work up from there.  If you are worried about someone passing themselves off as an NCO, change the design of the rank (some good ideas on another thread).  Let the NCO's that earned their stripes continue to wear them.

Maybe it is time to look at the jobs that are to be done and really match to rank to those jobs.  It would be like having a office full of workers instead of an office full of bosses.

[Dragoon]

You're right - most CAP officers aren't doing officer duties.  They are doing senior airman/junior NCO duties.

But folks are also right that 50 year old E-2's looks really weird.  And given that our grade system is sort of a reward/recruitement tool, asking middle aged mature adult to start as an Airman might discourage more than a few from joining up.

I think a better idea is to start all seniors (including pilots) as flight officers.  It puts you below an officer, but it's not as jarring as taking you all the way down to the bottom of the enlisted ladder.  Plus it's CAP-specific, so it avoids comparisons with USAF.

Then reserve commissioned grade for folks who need it to perform true officer-type duties. 

[lordmonar]

Okay...I retract everything I said about implementing an NCO program.

It's not needed....and making everyone in CAP an enlisted puke is just not going to work.
This thread has drifted into the same old arguments about ranks/position/duties.

Let's keep things as they are and let the dead dog lie.

[Dragoon]

It's funny - so many discussions end up back to rank and position.  That could just be wannabee-ism - but I think it's because this is one area where CAP is seriously screwed up.

Lots of folks don't consider "fixing" our grade or position structures to be a priority.   But it's possible that the current system is an obstacle to any serious organizational improvement.

In other words - the way we manage people today may not be "broke" - as long as you don't expect CAP to be any better tomorrow that it has been for the last 30 or so years.

But if we want to improve as an organization, perhaps part of the problem is that we don't have the right rewards in place to motivate the right folks to do the things we really need done.

So far, throwing officer and NCO grade at folks may make them feel good, may help with recruiting new members who like the idea of being a Chief or a Lt Col, but it might not be motivating the right folks to do the hard jobs CAP really needs done better.

(all that said, lordmonar, your concept is probably the only semi-workable one for an NCO corps I've seen - it defines a role. But for reasons pointed out by others, I think human nature would kill it pretty quickly.  A dual class system is a tough sell in a volunteer group.)

[DNall]

Even if the existing NCO system remains mostly unaltered, what would yall think about getting rid of FOs & making them E-1 to E-3 instead?

Remember that FO's are former Cadet Officers: a kid works hard to get there, then becomes a CAP Airman upon conversion to Senior Member, while someone a couple of years older joins, watches a video, maintains a pulse for 6 months and becomes a 2nd Lt?  That would be a hard pill to swallow.

Think you're a little off there. They may have been a cadet, not necessarily an officer, or not. They could just be a new 18-20yo member off the street with no prior CAP experience. That's how I came in. How is C/Col to SFO any different than SrA?

Getting rid of FOs and making them E-1 to E-3 is just rampant age discrimination.

And making them an FO, when a guy a year older gets made 2Lt on the same exact training, is different in what way?


The reason I raise the issue is the FO system is absolutely jacked. The reason for it is that as an organization we don't trust 18-20yo members (regardless of experience) with the same supervisory capacity as a member over 21. It also looks real stupid to have 18yo 2Lts. If that's going to be the case, then it should follow that we trust them less than prior service NCOs, and the grade looks appropriate on them at that age. If you talk about this in ref to my larger concept, then it's not hard to swallow when most adults are enlisted, and they can apply for training as an officer at 20.

It's funny - so many discussions end up back to rank and position.  That could just be wannabee-ism - but I think it's because this is one area where CAP is seriously screwed up.

Lots of folks don't consider "fixing" our grade or position structures to be a priority.   But it's possible that the current system is an obstacle to any serious organizational improvement.

In other words - the way we manage people today may not be "broke" - as long as you don't expect CAP to be any better tomorrow that it has been for the last 30 or so years.

+1 mostly on that.

[sarmed1]

Those who achieve the rank spent their time doing the details and learning the leadership qualities, it's a development. "Instant" NCO's is a really bad idea.

again maybe on the AD side (and for to some extent some branches reserve components:
However I'll use the AF Reseve since I am a reservist, using the medical carrer field requirements:

36 months time in service
completion of 5 skill level (so tech school and a coorespondence course/skill verification)
completion of Airman Leadership school (coorespondence)
completion of AF trainers course (1 day classroom)

so its not a whole lot more than what we in CAP do now....there is no mysterious leadership ability granted by their years of experience.....heck I see people who have been in the reserves all their carrer who are E-7 that couldnt LEAD anyone let alone themselves out of a wet paperbag with the bottom ripped off....there is no magic to it, they are just there, follow the rules and did a bunch of coorespondence course...we couldnt be doing that much worse.

mk