NCO promotions and appointment for non-prior service members.

[afgeo4]

No, this isn't another one of "those" threads.

I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that in the NEC agenda notes, the NCO topic is discussed and a decision was made to research the concept of creating an NCO career track with promotions and including non-prior members to be eligible to become NCOs.

I guess sometimes NHQ does hear us. I am glad. Hopefully they will allow current officers to switch to NCO grades so I can put my chevrons back on.

[Eclipse]

If you're eligible for NCO grade, you could switch back anytime you want.

As to allowing non-current / prior military to become NCOs?  Not without  an entire program, including different professional development and specific / different duties.

[sandman]

If you're eligible for NCO grade, you could switch back anytime you want.

True, but you missed point George was making. I wouldn't mind wearing my NCO stripes either. However, I would like to have an incentive to do so such as career progression marked by promotions. I'm with George on this.

As to allowing non-current / prior military to become NCOs?  Not without  an entire program, including different professional development and specific / different duties.

There is that. Maybe that is why the NEC is looking at it again. Best of luck NEC, I hope you can pull it off and come up with a viable NCO program!

/r

LT

[Hawk200]

If you're eligible for NCO grade, you could switch back anytime you want.

I don't have any problem with this, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more. At present, if a person is an NCO, you know they've been there and done that.

As to allowing non-current / prior military to become NCOs?  Not without  an entire program, including different professional development and specific / different duties.

If there is a full progression starting from Airman Basic, then going up each rank, then I have less of an issue. If it's a case of someone going from Senior Member straight to Staff Sergeant, there is a serious problem.

Most branches have something to the effect of "I am an NCO, noone is more profesional than I". Those who achieve the rank spent their time doing the details and learning the leadership qualities, it's a development. "Instant" NCO's is a really bad idea.

[O-Rex]

If you're eligible for NCO grade, you could switch back anytime you want.

I don't have any problem with this, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more. At present, if a person is an NCO, you know they've been there and done that.

As to allowing non-current / prior military to become NCOs?  Not without  an entire program, including different professional development and specific / different duties.

If there is a full progression starting from Airman Basic, then going up each rank, then I have less of an issue. If it's a case of someone going from Senior Member straight to Staff Sergeant, there is a serious problem.

Most branches have something to the effect of "I am an NCO, noone is more profesional than I". Those who achieve the rank spent their time doing the details and learning the leadership qualities, it's a development. "Instant" NCO's is a really bad idea.

If I recall, CAP 'enlisted' ranks start at a three-stripe sergeant (which funny enough, hasn't existed in USAF for years.)  From an incentive standpoint, the prospect of being a 45 year-old Airman Basic may not appeal to some....

No, I'd say keep a new member as SM until they decide what they want to do.

[Hawk200]

If I recall, CAP 'enlisted' ranks start at a three-stripe sergeant (which funny enough, hasn't existed in USAF for years.) 

I was wondering, so I looked in 35-5 (Aug 2004). It still shows sergeant as a rank.

Kinda presents an issue, since the nearest insignia to wear is the standard three stripes for Senior Airman. If such people interacted with the military, they're going to be considered and addressed as "Senior Airman".

If we had an enlisted program starting from the bottom going up, we should just realign our ranks to the Air Force's, and call it what they do.

[Tim Medeiros]

I think the main reason why CAP calls it a Sergeant is because E-4 for other services is an NCO, whereas for the AF it is not.  Makes sense to me, though YMMV

[O-Rex]

More importantly, in the Cadet world, you expect your seniors, ANY senior to be able to lend some adult supervision and some degree of leadership (?)

So that may be an explanation of why no 'lower-enlisted' grades for seniors.

Makes sense (in theory, anyway...)

[Hawk200]

I think the main reason why CAP calls it a Sergeant is because E-4 for other services is an NCO, whereas for the AF it is not.  Makes sense to me, though YMMV

I'm an E-4 in an Army component, and I'm not an NCO.

There is an E-4 NCO rank in the Army, but not everyone would be able to get it. It's usually limited to combat arms related branches. In Aviation, I'm not even eligible.

[RickFranz]

If I recall, CAP 'enlisted' ranks start at a three-stripe sergeant (which funny enough, hasn't existed in USAF for years.) 

I was wondering, so I looked in 35-5 (Aug 2004). It still shows sergeant as a rank.

Kinda presents an issue, since the nearest insignia to wear is the standard three stripes for Senior Airman. If such people interacted with the military, they're going to be considered and addressed as "Senior Airman".

If we had an enlisted program starting from the bottom going up, we should just realign our ranks to the Air Force's, and call it what they do.

I think it might throw some of the younger AF folks, but we throw them a curve ball with the flight officer ranks anyway, so why not Sgt..  The AF changed the NCO status for an E-4 (Sgt now SrA) back in the 1990's however the Navy and parts of the Army still think of E-4 as an NCO.

[tkelley004]

No, this isn't another one of "those" threads.

I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that in the NEC agenda notes, the NCO topic is discussed and a decision was made to research the concept of creating an NCO career track with promotions and including non-prior members to be eligible to become NCOs.

I guess sometimes NHQ does hear us. I am glad. Hopefully they will allow current officers to switch to NCO grades so I can put my chevrons back on.

Not unless they change the officer program.. so if you put your chevrons back on are you going to salute and call "sir" a 21 year old, with 6 months in CAP and completion of level one....

That is what you would have to do....  (I am a active duty SMSgt By the way....)

[RickFranz]

Then there is the question of the 20 year E8 or E9 that comes from something other than the AF with no CAP background, how do you treat them?  Come on in here is your SMSgt or CMSgt now go forth.  I think without some short of "This is the way we do it here" class, we would find ourselfs in the same sorta mess that I been reading about on another thread here about AF Officers coming into CAP.

[Stonewall]

I think without some short of "This is the way we do it here" class, we would find ourselfs in the same sorta mess that I been reading about on another thread here about AF Officers coming into CAP.

Although lacking, every member gets Level I, and later, SLS/CLC which is the "this is the way we do it here" class.

LEVEL I:

Level One
Welcome to your first step in professional development as a CAP member! 

Level One provides you with the foundations of Civil Air Patrol missions, policies and opportunities for service. Talk with your mentor or commander if you have any questions about Level One.

To complete Level One of Civil Air Patrol's professional development program, you will need to complete the following (by clicking some of these links, you will be leaving the *.gov domain):

     a. The CAP Foundations Course - Details below.

     b. Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT) - Available online only at e-Services (details below).

     c. Online Operations Security (OPSEC) Awareness Training - Available online only at https://tests.cap.af.mil/opsec (details below).

[Trung Si Ma]

Not unless they change the officer program.. so if you put your chevrons back on are you going to salute and call "sir" a 21 year old, with 6 months in CAP and completion of level one....

I was going to make a smart a$$ comment about West Pointers and ROTC kids, but I'll let you use your imagination.

[mikeylikey]

Not unless they change the officer program.. so if you put your chevrons back on are you going to salute and call "sir" a 21 year old, with 6 months in CAP and completion of level one....

That is what you would have to do....  (I am a active duty SMSgt By the way....)

So you don't salute the 21 and 22 year old Air Force 2nd Lt's??  Being Active Duty and all??

If we are going to have CAP NCO's, I hope they can support the CAP program and part of that program is having 21 year old CAP Officers.  So if you can't get over basic customs and courtesies as a "seasoned" SNCO, you would be a terrible role model for the Cadets. 

I can't believe a comment like that came out of someone who should already being showing proper respect to Officers of the 20 year old age group. 

[Dragoon]

I think his point is that our standards for 2d Lt, compared to the real military are... how gentlhy can I put this....a crock.

Put in that context, his gentle warning about what it would mean to return to CAP NCO ranks is not really out of line.  If you choose to be a NCO, you will be forced to render courtesies to folks who, unlike real military officers, have next to zero training AND a high likelihood of never actually being in charge of another human being.  Ever.

I'm just sayin'.

[Eclipse]

A salient point, and the reason why we should stop this talk about reinstituting "enlisted" grades in CAP.

We're not talking about maintaining a semblance of C&C, we're talking about the realities of volunteers and
being human.

In the MC$, being an NCO means a lot of specific things, points to specific levels of duties and responsibilities, and generally commands a special level of respect.

In CAP it generally means you don't understand the program.

[lordmonar]

I have an idea for an NCO corps...

First we must identify their duties....why do we need NCOs?

The duties of a CAP NCO would be to conduct "military" training to the Officers and Cadets.  They would be the Uniform Nazis and the Customs and Courtesies Police and the Drill Masters.

We will have to include these skills as part of ALL SM training.  I.e. all officers will have to pass the Curry Ribbon Drill test for Level II.

Progression for the NCO's will be as such.

New guy who decides to go NCO/prior enlisted any service.  Wear the SrA stripe upon completing Level I.

Technician rating will be to complete the Wright Brothers leadership and drill test (or something similar).

This rates them a SSgt after an appropriate TIG.

Senior rating will be complete level II and pass a comprehensive drill test, conduct training classes...that sort of thing...this gets them TSgt.

Master rating will be complete Level III more instructing and a major serious drill exam.

SMSgt will only be MASTER Rated NCOs at the group level.
CMSgts will only be MASTER Rated NCOs at the wing and above level.

Units will only be authorized one First Sergeant (this is a position) who must be MASTER RATED....no master rated NCOs...no first sergeant.

Groups, wings, regions will be allowed one.....one first sergeant at each level...but there can be multiple SMSgts/CMSgts on their staff.

One....Command Chief at national level.

Prior NCOs can jump up to their current rank up to MSgts.....just as we do with retired 0-6s...retired E-9's must get their Master Rating and serve at the appropriate levels to earn back their rockers.

Notice what I said first.....this should only happen if we also make an strong effort to require all CAP officers to learn a basic level of drill and ceremonies.

This is just a thumbnail sketch of what the program could look like....if you have details....let's hear them.

Flame away.

[Gunner C]

I think his point is that our standards for 2d Lt, compared to the real military are... how gentlhy can I put this....a crock.

Put in that context, his gentle warning about what it would mean to return to CAP NCO ranks is not really out of line.  If you choose to be a NCO, you will be forced to render courtesies to folks who, unlike real military officers, have next to zero training AND a high likelihood of never actually being in charge of another human being.  Ever.

I'm just sayin'.

WIWAC we had several NCOs in my cadet squadron.  Two were AD senior NCOs (MSgts IIRC), on AD airman and one guy who was a bonifide CAP NCO.  They all added an additional quality to the program.  All of our other SMs were officers - all, save two, were active duty.  One was the commander's wife who instructed our AE program and the other was a chaplain (doesn't really count the same as other officers [direct appointment to maj] - good guy, just didn't have any experience w/RM or CAP).

We had the best program I've EVER seen.  I haven't seen anything since that could come close.  Real NCOs, teaching CAP NCOs, kept the standards VERY high.

GC

[Eclipse]

I have an idea for an NCO corps...

First we must identify their duties....why do we need NCOs?

Since there can be no caste division of "workers" vs. "managers" in volunteer organization, we don't.

Col's will still be emptying the trash cans at unit meetings whether we have NCO's or not.