Poll for military veterans...

[PWK-GT]

^^^ I'll get the duct tape out......

[Flying Pig]

No, the member should have a right to choose what official document he/she wants to present IF he she wants to use that information for some sort of advance standing in CAP.
RM   

I think that was the point. You dont have to present anything.  But if you show up with military ribbons and HALO and SCUBA badges, be prepared to show your legit. I can count a couple of CAPTalk Commandos who dont post here anymore because they were found out to he frauds. 

[Private Investigator]

When I was in the Army Guard we had a few guys who had lots of PX hardware but when we had an IG visit a lot of their bling bling disappeared 

[RogueLeader]

When I was in the Army Guard we had a few guys who had lots of PX hardware but when we had an IG visit a lot of their bling bling disappeared

I wanna be a PX Ranger . . .
Live the life of no guts and danger. . .

[umpirecali]

We often hear of people claiming military service but didn't serve, or more frequently, those who did serve admirably, but decided to add a few pieces of bling to their chest just for more attention and respect.

Isn't this a solution looking for a problem?  Is this really a rampant problem?  Perhaps I am naive but I trust the people in my squadron have earned the ribbons they wear.  If we don't then how can we be trusted with the character development of cadets?  For better or for worse, I trust people at their word until they prove to me their word is worth what mine is (except when it comes to money matters).  {Please don't go picking apart that sentence looking for exceptions.  The general point is trust.}

[RogueLeader]

We often hear of people claiming military service but didn't serve, or more frequently, those who did serve admirably, but decided to add a few pieces of bling to their chest just for more attention and respect.

Isn't this a solution looking for a problem?  Is this really a rampant problem?  Perhaps I am naive but I trust the people in my squadron have earned the ribbons they wear.  If we don't then how can we be trusted with the character development of cadets?  For better or for worse, I trust people at their word until they prove to me their word is worth what mine is (except when it comes to money matters).  {Please don't go picking apart that sentence looking for exceptions.  The general point is trust.}

The saying that comes to mind is:

Trust, but verify.

I trusted my recruiter explicitly, but you can bet that I checked my contract thoroughly before I signed it.  The other quote that came to mind is:

If it's not on paper, then it didn't happen.

[NIN]

Isn't this a solution looking for a problem?  Is this really a rampant problem?  Perhaps I am naive but I trust the people in my squadron have earned the ribbons they wear.  If we don't then how can we be trusted with the character development of cadets?  For better or for worse, I trust people at their word until they prove to me their word is worth what mine is (except when it comes to money matters).  {Please don't go picking apart that sentence looking for exceptions.  The general point is trust.}

You hit the nail on the head: trust.

As a commander, I trust that you're going to follow the rules even when I'm not standing there beating you over the head with the unit's fat binder of regs.  The ones regarding, say, vehicle usage, safety, flying safety, cadet protection, training certification, leadership, membership eligibility and uniforms, just to name a few.

Oh, wait.   "Excuse me, Captain. You're a Navy SEAL? Oh, you're not? Why the Budwiser on your chest? You got it at Clothing Sales? I see. You liked how cool it looked."

At this point, I'm wondering "OK, if Captain McSlappy here can't follow the simple stuff like uniform wear and not putting crap that he hasn't earned on his chest, can I also trust that he's following the slightly more complex and not-as-black-and-white rules surrounding, say, cadet protection?"

And then there is the question "Why does this guy feel the need to do this? Self-aggrandizement?  Trying to make himself look cooler? Cooler to WHO? My impressionable cadets? Wait a minute.."

ETA: As a commander, too, I tried to impart "Commander's intent" on my people when they were operating under indirect supervision. I wasn't always going to be there to 100% supervise my officers when, say, they took the cadets to Clothing Sales or were at a SAREX.   But my officers understood their commander's intent when it came to things like Cadet Protection and standards of leadership:  "The colonel is pretty serious about CPP.  How would he want us to handle this slightly nebulous situation before us under the context of the rules and his intent? Yeah, I think he'd ask us to err on the side of caution and 'more protection'."

So if they had a situation where, say, they could take 3 POVs to Clothing Sales, with 3 cadets in each of the first 2 vehicles and 1 in the 3rd, they're going to think "Hmm, yeah, no, thats not a good idea, one cadet alone with an adult in that one vehcile.  Maybe we need to take the squadron van, instead, even though its going to cost the unit a couple more bucks in gas."

Or "Hmmm, the van broke down on the side of the road. We have six cadets and two officers and 1 dead cell phone.  Its the middle of the day on the side of a busy highway. One of us needs to walk the 250 yards to the exit ramp and make a phone call.  While I'm sure the boss wants us to not leave one of the officers behind with the cadets, its probably less safe to have all of us marching up the narrow shoulder of this highway to the gas station pay phone in the name of cadet protection. "

[Garibaldi]

Trust does not mean skipping over integrity.

We trust SMs to do a lot: be of good character, not to fool around with the 3 C's (cash, cadets, corporate assets), be good role models, etc.

Integrity means, to me, that the trust we build engenders (I love big words) integrity among cadets and fellow seniors, enabling them to do the right thing even when no one's watching.

If I trust a SM to do a job, say, character development, and he does it well, no problems whatsoever for ten, fifteen years, then suddenly I see on the news that he's been busted for smoking pot in a parking lot, what does that say? What kind of message does that send? That trust is gone. His integrity is shot.

Same with the issue of ribbons and war stories. I trust a SM that his stories of how he won his Silver Star are true. Everyone in the unit does, there's no reason to doubt him whatsoever. Then one day, the Admin guy goes into his file to place a 2A or whatever, sees his DD-214 and nowhere in it was made mention of his serving in a combat zone, or even in an MOS that would place him in a situation where he would have to place his life on the line. Trust gone, integrity shot (this is really a paraphrased story about a relative of mine who claimed that his Navy service was in the first SEAL detachment in the 60s).

I'm not saying we should examine in detail every single member who claims valorous service. Not at all. In the end, integrity will win out one way or another, either by the person in question giving himself enough rope to hang himself, finally giving in and saying he made the whole thing up, or by "accidental" outing.

At best, the SM will admit his self-aggrandizing for whatever reason, remove the award(s), and apologize. At worst, probably...I don't know, blustering about how no one trusts anyone anymore, screw you guys, I'm going home, ending the problem but leaving bad feelings and a lack of trust for the next guy who really did save his platoon in Afghanistan and won a Silver Star.

This is just my opinion.

[Devil Doc]

I have no problem showing people what I have earned in this service. The one question I always get is, "Your in the NAVY and have an Purple Heart?"  Im amazed by some people. I see that 2 people said if asked they would show there documents. I only say one thing "WHY"? It is actually an law to show your DD-214, when trying to claim anything military. Is it Enforced? Hardly.

[Stonewall]

Oh, wait.   "Excuse me, Captain. You're a Navy SEAL? Oh, you're not? Why the Budwiser on your chest? You got it at Clothing Sales? I see. You liked how cool it looked."

You mean this guy?  And this is just ONE of many who, as most would like, trusted his word and undoubtedly, we trusted him and his apparent skills, to work with cadets.  Said "SEAL" or "Ranger", or "Marine Sniper" may lead our youth on some exciting adventures and we trust this person because of their claimed background or expertise, but then later we find out this guy isn't who he said he is and after we sent 60 cadets off the 30' rappel tower, we realized he wasn't a rappel master after all.

[For the pic below, notice the SEAL Trident.  This guy was trusted to run a Group, yet we found out he was 100% bogus.]

[NIN]

Its even more than just this setting, too.

Several years ago, company I worked for had a consultant come in to advise, guide and eventually lead a major ERP upgrade project.   Rumor was they were paying some obscene amount of money ($40,000/mo was a number I heard, but that sounds like BS) to have this guy from in from Chicago, stay overnight 4 nights a week, etc.

First day, he's in the conference room with us and introducing himself to us.  I'm immediately put off to this guy because he's got this "I'm going to baffle you with BS" vibe, and my opinion never gets better.

He starts going on about how great he is and why he's so great:

"I was a Naval Aviator. I flew single-seat A-4 attack jets off aircraft carriers, and then I flew S-3 Viking anti-submarine attack aircraft...."

I look over at my CFO and I can immediately see he's been reeled in by this guy's line of BS. 

"Wait, hold it," I said, interrupting this guy. "You flew Scooters, then got stuck in Hoovers?  Seriously?  Who'd you piss off ?"

This guys face drops to the table.

"Uhhhh, you know Naval Aviation?"

"Yeah."

Later, we're walking out of the conference room and my CFO pulls me aside.

"What was that about his Navy thing in there?"

"He flew attack jets like John McCain flew, off aircraft carriers. Cool, neato little things, they call 'em Scooters. But then he got relegated to flying an anti-submarine patrol airplane that has a crew of 4 and is powered by big ol' airliner-sized turbofans. In other words, he was trying to blow smoke up our butts..."

"Oh.."

It took a month, but after the third shift in "strategy" after his return from Chicago each week, we decided his "skills" were not needed.

[Walkman]

What might not be a bad idea (maybe this already exists) is to make a guide for us non-military folk for these issues. I've never seen a DD-214, so someone could hand me a complete fake and I wouldn't know. I know the rules for awards & decs are in 39-3. Is 35-5 where I'd find the rest of the info I'd need on any benefits a new member with prior service would be entitled to?

[Walkman]

Rumor was they were paying some obscene amount of money ($40,000/mo was a number I heard, but that sounds like BS) to have this guy from in from Chicago, stay overnight 4 nights a week, etc.

Off topic, but I want that job.

[NIN]

What might not be a bad idea (maybe this already exists) is to make a guide for us non-military folk for these issues. I've never seen a DD-214, so someone could hand me a complete fake and I wouldn't know. I know the rules for awards & decs are in 39-3. Is 35-5 where I'd find the rest of the info I'd need on any benefits a new member with prior service would be entitled to?

(emphasis mine)

Funny, the passage highlighted above was addressed here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=12787.msg232103#msg232103

At the time, several people held the opinion that CAP had no right to ask for a DD214, and would, in fact, represent a breach of PERSEC because it contains PII.

But you're right: you have no idea what to look for.

Look, the guy who I mentioned in my other thread? Yeah, he used to be a CAP-Talk user.  Don't think fakers in CAP are a big deal?  Guess again.

[Garibaldi]

Rumor was they were paying some obscene amount of money ($40,000/mo was a number I heard, but that sounds like BS) to have this guy from in from Chicago, stay overnight 4 nights a week, etc.

Off topic, but I want that job.

If I could be a BS artist for $40K a month, sign me up!

[NIN]

If I could be a BS artist for $40K a month, sign me up!

Go to clothing sales, buy a pair of aviator wings and read Wikipedia about the nicknames of jets.

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance....

[Al Sayre]

Here's a link to a sample DD-214 and what is on it from the Vietnam Veterans of America.
Might be handy to keep a copy if you aren't already familiar with it.

http://www.vva.org/Membership/Guide-to-Understanding-an-Applican1.pdf

It also has some handy tips for identifying potential fakers, especially those claiming Vietnam Service.

[RogueLeader]

Also note that that 214 is an older version and may not look exactly like that.  They do, however, contain the same important information.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I was in the Army Guard we had a few guys who had lots of PX hardware but when we had an IG visit a lot of their bling bling disappeared

I've posted this pic before, but this guy is just so outrageous it's unreal.

He is (former) Wing Commander (Lieutenant Colonel equivalent) David Bain of the Royal Australian Air Force's Air Force Cadets...sort of their equivalent to CAP.  They wear the exact same uniform as the RAAF, the only distinction being shoulder flashes.



He got busted for wearing a LOT of unauthorised blingage, an odd combination of RAAF pilot's wings and loads of U.S. mini medals.

Maybe he figured that the RAAF would find it too difficult to verify foreign medals...why I don't know, just a guess.

We'd have to be careful in CAP too about someone from another country claiming service in his/her country of origin's armed forces and wearing them on the CAP uniform.  It's very easy to get foreign medals online, including the Victoria Cross, the British Commonwealth's equivalent of the MOH.

http://www.heritagemedals.com.au/medals-1/gallantry/victoria-cross.html

[SarDragon]

We often hear of people claiming military service but didn't serve, or more frequently, those who did serve admirably, but decided to add a few pieces of bling to their chest just for more attention and respect.

Isn't this a solution looking for a problem?

No. The problem is real, and it goes against the core values, specifically Integrity.

Is this really a rampant problem?

Rampant? Maybe. Maybe not. It exists. It is wrong for someone to claim to be something they are not.

Perhaps I am naive but I trust the people in my squadron have earned the ribbons they wear.  If we don't then how can we be trusted with the character development of cadets?

That is exactly the issue. If we verify everyone, then we aren't singling anyone out based on profiles, or "gut feelings".