CAP/Police officer members

[Dutchboy]

Can a CAP member , that is a police officer, attend squadron meetings in police uniform (with side arm) ? if so are there limitations or special situations where it is allowed?

[davidsinn]

Can a CAP member , that is a police officer, attend squadron meetings in police uniform (with side arm) ? if so are there limitations or special situations where it is allowed?

Why can't they wear a CAP uniform like every other member?

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[Eclipse]

CAP members should attend meetings in a CAP uniform, and in nearly all cases are required to.

If the officer is within his home jurisdiction, he may be required to carry, in which case he should do it discreetly within the
requirements of the law, and the situation should probably be discussed quietly with the Unit CC and Wing CC.  The circumstances where
an officer coudl not change into a CAP uniform and carry concealed would be nearly zero.

Any exceptions, etc., should be approved by the Wing CC.

Being an LEO doesn't necessarily change the CAP rules regarding uniforms or firearms, and where law trumps regs, they don't need to
make a big deal about it.

[JeffDG]

CAP members should attend meetings in a CAP uniform, and in nearly all cases are required to.

If the officer is within his home jurisdiction, he may be required to carry, in which case he should do it discreetly within the
requirements of the law, and the situation should probably be discussed quietly with the Unit CC and Wing CC.  The circumstances where
an officer coudl not change into a CAP uniform and carry concealed would be nearly zero.

Any exceptions, etc., should be approved by the Wing CC.

Being an LEO doesn't necessarily change the CAP rules regarding uniforms or firearms, and where law trumps regs, they don't need to
make a big deal about it.

Not only exceptions, but situations where the officer is off-duty and required (by law) to carry need to be approved in writing by the Wing/CC.

[Major Lord]

A number of questions and issues arise from your question. The first is; Must a member attend a meeting in CAP uniform? The answer to that is, preferably, but not in every instance. On Travis, we have active duty members who attend in USAF uniform, and people swinging back from work who show in civvies, so there is no hard and fast requirement to wear a uniform in every case, except when working with Cadets. In the past,  we have had SP's show up, obviously armed, to check us out, but not members. They have the right to carry on the base anywhere they want for the most part.

The problem hinges on whether they are merely present or "engaged  in an activity" since CAPR 900-3 states ( in part) : "Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear, or use firearms, including air guns (pellet or BB) while engaged in Civil Air Patrol activities......"

Unless they have a "mother may I" from the Wing King, contingent upon their agencies requirement to be armed at all times, its unlikely that they would be allowed to be "engaged" in any CAP activities while armed, although this has certainly occured. From a practical standpoint, telling a Police Officer in Uniform, and a marked car, on base with the permission of the Base to be there, that he has to take off his sidearm if he wants to come in and  in any way "engage" in CAP business seems just ridiculous. Having an armed, uniformed police officer actively engaged in a meeting would be....imprudent.

CAP is firearms phobic, and many things about CAPR 900-3 are ill-conceived or in some cases, patently false. For instance, 900-3 says that CAP members,  may not be deputized. Being a CAP member in California does not give you a right to be exempt from lawful orders from a police officer or judge, or exempt you from being conscripted into a posse comitatus , it just means that as soon as you change sides, CAP disowns you. ( The Secretary will disavow you, Mr. Phelps)

Major Lord

[Dutchboy]

I forgot to say, wearing police uniform while on duty, attending CAP meeting performing duties as CAP member.

[davidsinn]

I forgot to say, wearing police uniform while on duty, attending CAP meeting performing duties as CAP member.

Those two are mutually exclusive. He's either on duty as a cop or he's not. If he's on duty as a cop then he should be doing police business. That's what he's paid for.

[EMT-83]

Why?

If the city is allowing him to be there on duty, what's the freakin' problem?

This is allowed in my agency, to the point that cops are allowed to attend church services on duty – in uniform and carrying weapons. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Eclipse]

I forgot to say, wearing police uniform while on duty, attending CAP meeting performing duties as CAP member.

No.  100% against CAP regs and likely against the LEA's regs as well.

[NCRblues]

We have a school squadron in the local area. The school has a resource officer assigned to it from the local PD. He stays at the school, has his own office and works with all the clubs and activities at the school. He is also a CAP member, and stops by the class often, in uniform and armed (because he is on duty).

I see no problem here....

[davidsinn]

Why?

If the city is allowing him to be there on duty, what's the freakin' problem?

This is allowed in my agency, to the point that cops are allowed to attend church services on duty – in uniform and carrying weapons. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Because as a taxpayer I take major exception to the waste of taxdollars. If a cop is on duty I expect them to be out patrolling. That's what he's paid for. As a non government employee I have to work for my pay. A government employee who is paid through my taxes should do the same.

[MIKE]

Wear ... when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local,
wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

[Eclipse]

We have a school squadron in the local area. The school has a resource officer assigned to it from the local PD. He stays at the school, has his own office and works with all the clubs and activities at the school. He is also a CAP member, and stops by the class often, in uniform and armed (because he is on duty).

I see no problem here....

You're comparing apples and spare tires.

He's on duty, and he's there in his official capacity as a police officer, which means, by definition, he can't be participating in a CAP activity.   

Same goes for situations where one is in the military and the unit meets on base, though in most of those cases, I have told members they need to change before attending a meeting.  Convenience and proximity do not change the rules.

[Woodsy]

We have a few LEO's in our squadron that often attend meetings in their police uniform because they come during their lunch hour, or right before or after their shift where timing would not make changing uniforms reasonable.  I have absolutely no problem with this.  They are a great asset to both CAP and their agency as a liaison and foster a good working relationship between the 2 organizations.

Missions are different.  We have to define that a CAP member serving in a CAP capacity in a CAP uniform can not exert his law enforcement powers at that time.  Example:  an ELT mission on private property where the police would be called to gain access.  That off-duty LEO would have to call one of his fellow LEO's instead of saying "well I'm a cop, let's go on in." 

[Ned]

In my day, I worked for several different police departments in California.  Not one would ever permit me to wear my uniform if I was not actually on duty.  Even if I was on my way to/from the station, I was required to wear a "cover coat" or something similar so that I would not appear to be in uniform.

I am not (currently) a practicing attorney, but I strongly suspect that such policies have a whole lot to do with liability issues for the police agency.  For them (and me, BTW) whether or not I was "on duty" while shopping on my way home or standing around at a community meeting would be critical if something should occur.

Now having said that, obviously I wore my uniform while sitting in restaurants during authorized meal breaks.  But I was "on duty", getting paid,  and subject to call even then. 

Personally, I don't think the world would end if a member-cop who was on duty stopped by the squadron for a few minutes to pick-up or drop off paperwork.  But teaching a class, etc. while in police uniform would seem problematic.

[Flying Pig]

Why dont you ask him yourself?

[Major Lord]

We have a few LEO's in our squadron that often attend meetings in their police uniform because they come during their lunch hour, or right before or after their shift where timing would not make changing uniforms reasonable.  I have absolutely no problem with this.  They are a great asset to both CAP and their agency as a liaison and foster a good working relationship between the 2 organizations.

Missions are different.  We have to define that a CAP member serving in a CAP capacity in a CAP uniform can not exert his law enforcement powers at that time.  Example:  an ELT mission on private property where the police would be called to gain access.  That off-duty LEO would have to call one of his fellow LEO's instead of saying "well I'm a cop, let's go on in."

You might be surprised that private citizens have fewer legal (and departmental)restrictions on say, jumping a fence, searching someone, etc., then say a LEO with jurisdiction in that area. If you think that your neighbors kid stole your stereo and you open his unlocked car and search for it, there is little anyone  can do to you ( they can try to arrest you, or kick your butt, but there is no law that says you have to submit to either of these) If you find it, and seize it, all's well, Try that as an on duty or off duty cop and wait for the sounds of screaming from all sides. If a Police Officer is in a position where he has a duty to act, and does not have his gun because of CAP's irrational phobias, who gets to wear the blame hat? An LEO can't switch his police status off whenever it suits him. In some sense, he "owns it"  it 24 hours a day ( Okay, there are some truly on-duty-only cops, but they can't smoke dope on their day off either)

Major Lord

[Woodsy]

We have a few LEO's in our squadron that often attend meetings in their police uniform because they come during their lunch hour, or right before or after their shift where timing would not make changing uniforms reasonable.  I have absolutely no problem with this.  They are a great asset to both CAP and their agency as a liaison and foster a good working relationship between the 2 organizations.

Missions are different.  We have to define that a CAP member serving in a CAP capacity in a CAP uniform can not exert his law enforcement powers at that time.  Example:  an ELT mission on private property where the police would be called to gain access.  That off-duty LEO would have to call one of his fellow LEO's instead of saying "well I'm a cop, let's go on in."

You might be surprised that private citizens have fewer legal (and departmental)restrictions on say, jumping a fence, searching someone, etc., then say a LEO with jurisdiction in that area. If you think that your neighbors kid stole your stereo and you open his unlocked car and search for it, there is little anyone  can do to you ( they can try to arrest you, or kick your butt, but there is no law that says you have to submit to either of these) If you find it, and seize it, all's well, Try that as an on duty or off duty cop and wait for the sounds of screaming from all sides. If a Police Officer is in a position where he has a duty to act, and does not have his gun because of CAP's irrational phobias, who gets to wear the blame hat? An LEO can't switch his police status off whenever it suits him. In some sense, he "owns it"  it 24 hours a day ( Okay, there are some truly on-duty-only cops, but they can't smoke dope on their day off either)

Major Lord

I understand and agree that emergency situations are different.  But I do believe an off duty LEO can and must "switch off LEO" while on CAP missions for things of the non-emergency nature like the example in my first post.

[weisguy]

In uniform would be allowed if you need to, but the sidearm will not be allowed unless your wing commander signs off on it.

[bflynn]

In uniform would be allowed if you need to, but the sidearm will not be allowed unless your wing commander signs off on it.

You're suggesting that a wing commander can tell a LEO that he cannot enter a certain meeting with a firearm?  I think you overestimate the WC's authority.

It happens quite frequently for us.  I have no problem with it, it's because we have a choice of him being there like that or not being there at all.  We understand.  A CAP meeting is a little bit different than other CAP activities.