Major and above not able to take SOS at Air University

[tonyairplane]

I applied through work as a DoD civilian, and received a reply via email and postcard that I was ineligible due to my GS grade level being too high (GS15.)  So I applied again as a CAP member, and received a postcard and email saying that my CAP rank was too high (Major.) So I talked with National, and was told that they are holding firm (cracking down were her words) on the requirements for BS degree and maximum rank.  I asked why would they not allow CAP Majors to take a course that they need for LTC?  Her answer was that it was never allowed, that Air Force officers have already taken the course before becoming majors, and that Air University is cracking down now because the Air Force is really angry at CAP due to cheating on Air University tests at the highest levels of CAP.  She wouldn't elaborate so I have no idea what she meant but now all of us majors are in a pickle.

The situation is this:  if you take SOS as a CAP captain or lower, you can be eligible for LTC later.  If you wait to take it until you're a major, you will be rejected.

Had I known, if anyone had advised or told me, I would have taken it before becoming a major.  So now I guess I and the other majors either have to take two weekends and a week away from our families and jobs (which I cannot due now or for the foreseeable future), or be stuck at major forever.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get past this roadblock?

[capmaj]

Who was the "she" that said....... " the Air Force is really angry at CAP due to cheating on Air University tests at the highest levels of CAP "? If this is something new, that's one thing. But if "she" is referring to HWSRN, that's a load of BS. It might be a load of BS anyway.

[jimmydeanno]

Request a demotion.

[tonyairplane]

Actually, we talked about that at a squadron meeting - all majors needing the course could request demotions.

Or CAP could work with AU to fix the problem I guess.  Not sure that the former would be good for morale, and not too encouraged about the groups working together.

[tonyairplane]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

[davidsinn]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

"He Who Shall Remain Nameless" The guy before Gen Courter.

[coudano]

Request a demotion.

winner

or just take Air Command Staff College instead.
or go to region staff college

[PHall]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

"He Who Shall Remain Nameless" The guy before Gen Courter.

He was the one who cheated on the Air University tests she was referring to.

[davidsinn]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

"He Who Shall Remain Nameless" The guy before Gen Courter.

He was the one who cheated on the Air University tests she was referring to.

That was quite a while ago. They need to learn to let things go.

[N Harmon]

Wow, I am glad to know this. I enrolled in SoS once but had to withdraw. I really want to complete it, but I probably will not have the spare time for a few years. In the mean time, I will be holding off on getting promoted.

[capmaj]

Pacific Region Staff College dates at Nellis for 2012 are April 21-27. RSC is a solution.

[tonyairplane]

Of course it would be, but taking a week and the Sunday before and Saturday after isn't an option for me right now.

To me, if CAP is going to offer something that has been made unavailable, then maybe they could work with AU to grandfather us existing majors in, and let us take the course.  Then make sure that in the future, it is taken at the captain level.

Or maybe they could come up with a CAP version of the course for distance learning; or just waive it for us.

[RiverAux]

Too high a CAP rank?  That is just ridiculous. 

Oh well, wasn't really worried about becoming an Lt. Col. anyway, but I guess its not going to ever happen.

[Eclipse]

RSC is supposed to be the solution, SOS was something we had access to for a while, just as cadets could do ECI 13.

We can't anymore.  it is what it is.

A lot of people make hay out of the fact that we have too many field grade officers who don't participate at the level expected
in a CAP context, one of the reasons we got where we are is that there we, and still are, far too many shortcuts to getting to the
higher grades, and few expectations once you get there.  So things are changing, and there won't be as many Lt. Col's.

Is this bad?

For what it's worth, I never heard of any expectation that SOS be done at the Captain level, that doesn't make sense in CAP's
context, so perhaps you've run into the same wall of misunderstanding that those who are told we can't shop at AAFES hit.

[NCRblues]

RSC is supposed to be the solution, SOS was something we had access to for a while, just as cadets could do ECI 13.

We can't anymore.  it is what it is.

A lot of people make hay out of the fact that we have too many field grade officers who don't participate at the level expected
in a CAP context, one of the reasons we got where we are is that there we, and still are, far too many shortcuts to getting to the
higher grades, and few expectations once you get there.  So things are changing, and there won't be as many Lt. Col's.

Is this bad?

For what it's worth, I never heard of any expectation that SOS be done at the Captain level, that doesn't make sense in CAP's
context, so perhaps you've run into the same wall of misunderstanding that those who are told we can't shop at AAFES hit.

It's not a bad thing at all. My wing has way too many light birds that do nothing. We also run into the problem with someone who is unwilling to change with the times because "im a lt. Col and this is how we have always done it".

I do not think thinning the heard of high rank officers is a bad thing. Lt. Col. is supposed to mean you are an expert in your area, and way to many times that simply is not the case because of what I call "check box officers".

[RiverAux]

A lot of people make hay out of the fact that we have too many field grade officers who don't participate at the level expected
in a CAP context, one of the reasons we got where we are is that there we, and still are, far too many shortcuts to getting to the
higher grades, and few expectations once you get there.  So things are changing, and there won't be as many Lt. Col's.

Keep in mind that the perception that we are top heavy is wrong.  CAP officer numbers by grade fall out into the same sort of pyramid shape that you see in the military. 

That being said, I agree with you about eliminating shortcuts though the vast majority of CAP officers (about 75%) do follow the standard CAP PD program to get to their grade, especially at the higher levels.

[tonyairplane]

Eclipse, just wondering, where it says that (that RSC is the way)?

Also, we still can take SOS, and it will still count toward Lt. Col., it just has to be done when one is a captain. 

So I am not sure that I understand your reasoning.

[RiverAux]

One could also spin this as the AF saying that CAP Majors are equivalent to AF Majors   

[PHall]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

"He Who Shall Remain Nameless" The guy before Gen Courter.

He was the one who cheated on the Air University tests she was referring to.

That was quite a while ago. They need to learn to let things go.

That was a major test compromise for them. They don't forget stuff like that.

[MSG Mac]

I have the lady's name at work, but not sure that I want to post it.

What's HWSRN?

"He Who Shall Remain Nameless" The guy before Gen Courter.

He was the one who cheated on the Air University tests she was referring to.

That was quite a while ago. They need to learn to let things go.

That was a major test compromise for them. They don't forget stuff like that.

It's more than the cheating incident. It's an investigation by AU as to how the test was compromised and if their were any other incidents ties into it, They have to rewrite all the versions of the test, and if they were under the UCMJ court martial for lying and cheating. following which they would be drummed out of the service. 

[Short Field]

IIRC, there was also a series of incidents a few years ago with the control of other tests at the squadron level that caused them to actually stop testing for a while.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, just wondering, where it says that (that RSC is the way)?

Also, we still can take SOS, and it will still count toward Lt. Col., it just has to be done when one is a captain. 

So I am not sure that I understand your reasoning.

The intention is to have a member ready for Level IV complete a week-long, in-residence course. Getting an SOS waiver was a "nice to have" for those
who just "can't get to RSC".  There's always a reason, yet the majority eventually get there, one way or the other.  Sitting in your home
completing a correspondence course will check the box, but it does not provide the same experience that RSC or NSC does.  There are plenty of members who haven't "done" CAP for more than a 2-3 hour stretch once a month - being locked in for a week gives you a different perspective.

There is also the issue of SOS not exactly being "CAP-Centric".  You won't get the CAP details you would with RSC, nor the hallway networking with your peers from all over the region.

Is it a gateway?  Yes.  So is the OBC.  Some of this is likely intended as a litmus test to see if your CAP interest and involvement are
at a full-on level when necessary.  Field grade officers are supposed to be looking to serve at the Wing or higher.  Does everyone?  No, but in the military
you would be or you wouldn't likely be getting the promotion at all.

Anyone who has served in a wing level or higher staff position knows that they can't be successful doing it a few hours a month, there's just too
much responsibility and too many people counting on what you set in motion - not to mention conferences, unit visits, and the occasional "fun" thing
you joined for originally.  If you aren't able to get to an RSC, you probably won't be able to put in the time at the Wing or region as the grade normally would be intended.

For those who can't or don't want to give up the time.  No harm, no foul. it's not like it won't be there next year, and "not being a Lt. Col." isn't going to
hold you back from doing anything.  The year I went to RSC, it was that or NESA, I had to make a choice and I chose RSC.  Now it looks like my
prospects for NESA in the next few years will be limited.  Kaysarahsarah.

[tonyairplane]

Eclipse,

I can appreciate your old school line of thought.  Though I don't know how you think you know what the CAP's intention is.

But how does what you are saying make any sense in light of the fact that CAP officers can still take and use SOS toward Lt Col? 

Nowhere in the reg. do I see the word waiver in relation to SOS.  It is either an accepted equivalent or it isn't, and CAP says it is. 

It is just that the AF now wants it taken by Captains and below.  But CAP didn't tell us, so us majors are stuck with the 9 day course.  But captains aren't.

I hope that I have articulated my concern clearly, or have YOU hit a wall of misunderstanding?

[Eclipse]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

[ZigZag911]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

I don't recall any distinction being made...wait, a minute, yes there is: folks who complete the AU courses get an extra doodad (also known as attachment) on their Garber  (bronze star for SOS) or Wilson (bronze star for ACSC, silver for AWC) ribbon, per CAPR 39-3. para. 15 e & f.

If anything, this sounds as if the AU courses are preferred.

[AirDX]

Here's the breakdown of officers in my wing:

7   Col.
39   Lt. Col.
28   Maj.
60   Capt.
57   1st Lt.
53   2d Lt.
25   SM

Not exactly a pyramid, quite a bulge at captain.  In fact, a full 2/3 of those are "Level 1" captains, so are mission related or professional appointments.

We're then thin on majors compared to LTCs.  Over half of the majors and 1/3 of the LTCs though are Level 1 only - which tells me they are former or current active duty officers.

Not to reignite the debate on advanced grade... but just a data point.  We do not really have the nice pyramidal rank distribution that AD does.  You could divide it into broader categories, such as CGO vs. FGO, and then it does look like a better distribution.

But honestly, until rank below Col. has some meaning beyond personal achievement, I don't really care.

[Eclipse]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

I don't recall any distinction being made...wait, a minute, yes there is: folks who complete the AU courses get an extra doodad (also known as attachment) on their Garber  (bronze star for SOS) or Wilson (bronze star for ACSC, silver for AWC) ribbon, per CAPR 39-3. para. 15 e & f.

If anything, this sounds as if the AU courses are preferred.

The stars are awarded to recognize that the member completed a college-level course audited by the USAF.  That doesn't mean it is the "preferred" manner to complete the requirement.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

[PHall]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Well the Promoting Authority for Lieutenant Colonel is the Region Commander. So your "problem" may not be at the Wing level.

[N Harmon]

One could also spin this as the AF saying that CAP Majors are equivalent to AF Majors   

One could, but I would much rather see it as the Air Force is going to hold CAP officers closer to the standards they hold their own officers to than they have before. A good thing, IMO, and would do well for our relationship with them.

[flyboy53]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

Although I, too, am a SOS grad, I would believe your problem getting promoted above major is either because you're not noticed enough at wing level and higher, or its a standard within your wing.

I noticed a lot of PA Wing related information on your CAP TALK ID. I started in the PA Wing as a cadet and early on as a senior member. Years ago, you saw very few officers above the grade of major unless they were assigned to wing headquarters. You saw, instead, a lot of officers transfer to surrounding wings to make rank and then they returned.

If I were you, I would make my promotion intentions known to the chief of staff or vice wing commander and then get advice on how to achieve your goal of promotion. You never know.....

[tonyairplane]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

Really, how do you think that you know that?  Where do you get your "reality, preferred, and clearly" from?  Even if you have some reason for saying it, then how do you explain that CAP is expanding the use of distance learning?  (eg, CLC)

Bottom line:  SOS is an approved equivalent for RSC; and CAP and AU have a misunderstanding as to the maximum level at which it can be taken.  Hopefully CAP will tell all captains to take it before getting promoted; or fix the discrepancy.

[ßτε]

You have another option. ACSC will also count for RSC and is available to CAP majors.

[SARDOC]

Really, how do you think that you know that?  Where do you get your "reality, preferred, and clearly" from?  Even if you have some reason for saying it, then how do you explain that CAP is expanding the use of distance learning?  (eg, CLC)

I have to agree with Eclipse.  In the last conversations I've had with the Professional Development Director at NHQ.  She says she would rather even not have the USAF classes even as options because they don't teach you anything about how our organization works.  She admits that it is very difficult offering a quality professional development program across the country so that they still offer those as alternatives but not really equivalents.

[Short Field]

In the last conversations I've had with the Professional Development Director at NHQ.  She says she would rather even not have the USAF classes even as options because they don't teach you anything about how our organization works. 

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:
I took SOS by correspondence and was a Distinguished Graduate in the in-residence course.  There is very little that translates to CAP that a decent college level management course wouldn't also cover - and probably cover better because it wouldn't come with the assumption you have the UMCJ to back up your orders.  The gap becomes even greater and the utility even less with ACSC and AWC.  Yes, you can learn something in those courses - but very little will apply to CAP. 

[MSG Mac]

Bottom line is that it's an Air Force course so we have to play by Air force rules which are if you haven't taken SOS as a Captain, you will never be a Major.

[ZigZag911]

.

The stars are awarded to recognize that the member completed a college-level course audited by the USAF.  That doesn't mean it is the "preferred" manner to complete the requirement.
[/quote]

But there is nothing in the regs to give preference to the in class courses, either.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Huh. Well, I have a bachelor's degree, I was a major when I started SOS nonresident, and even though everything's done and I meet all the requirements IAW regulations and directives and I've served well, I'm still not promoted. No one will give me a reason why, either, just a vague answer.

Don't take SOS for the promotion potential. Take it to learn leadership and management skills, best practices, AFSO21 and the other things that will enrichen your CAP experience.

And, oh, as for HWSRN? As a result, you can't test for SOS with a CAP testing officer. You have to test at a base education office. Frankly, it's a better experience, anyway, and you get your results instantaneously, since everything's electronic.

Although I, too, am a SOS grad, I would believe your problem getting promoted above major is either because you're not noticed enough at wing level and higher, or its a standard within your wing.

I noticed a lot of PA Wing related information on your CAP TALK ID. I started in the PA Wing as a cadet and early on as a senior member. Years ago, you saw very few officers above the grade of major unless they were assigned to wing headquarters. You saw, instead, a lot of officers transfer to surrounding wings to make rank and then they returned.

If I were you, I would make my promotion intentions known to the chief of staff or vice wing commander and then get advice on how to achieve your goal of promotion. You never know.....

I just left the wing staff, after a 20-month stint (the new boss said he wanted to "go in a different direction," but wouldn't enunciate why). While I won't go into personnel issues here, there were no dings on my record, and in fact, we survived (with a couple of commendables) a wing compliance inspection. And I resurrected a program (public affairs) that was all but dormant in this wing before I came aboard. New leadership, politics played, promotion didn't go to region and was denied at wing. Still waiting to hear exactly why.

And I probably said too much, even though I said I wouldn't. The advice I was given by a high-level personnel director? Wait this group of folks out, or go to another wing where I have friends (seriously). Should it be that way? Seems the whole thing runs against the core values, including my airing of dirty laundry in this thread, so I apologize.

As for Pennsylvania Wing? I was never a member there. The four years I spent in Pittsburgh, I remained in Ohio Wing, even being a squadron commander for a while. I helped present at a Pennsylvania Wing public affairs workshop in suburban Pittsburgh, and I was always available if they needed a hand, but I never transferred there. When I went from the 'Burgh to Florida the first time in 2005, it was a CAP transfer from Ohio to Florida... then later, from Florida to Michigan when I moved to Detroit, then back again to Florida. So I guess you can say I'm a carpetbagger.

[luscioman]

SOS might be an equivalent, but it is not the preferred way - CAP is not a correspondence course.  That is not "old school", that is reality.

You can quote the legalism of the regs all you want, but the intention of the program is clearly that the preference is always in-face attendance vs.
distance learning.  A month ago everyone used to be able to take ACSC & AWC, too. Now it is restricted to those with a college degree.  These are oversights the USAF is correcting.

This is actually changing. Look at the new online I-Cut course and the online SLS and CLC  courses that are being presented in many wings. There is less and less FTF courses coming.

[Eclipse]

This is actually changing. Look at the new online I-Cut course and the online SLS and CLC  courses that are being presented in many wings. There is less and less FTF courses coming.

Let's hope not.

Online SLS/CLC requires pretty hefty approval and a real good excuse, it's not by any means the preferred way.

What online I-Cut?

[SarDragon]

ICUT = Introductory (?) Communications User Training, the long promised replacement for BCUT and ACUT. I'll believe it when I see it. Essentially vaporware for the last 6(?) years.

[Eclipse]

Exactly.

[tonyairplane]

You can hope all you want, that's the way it is going.  SLS, ClC, Safety, SOS, War College.........there's no stopping the online revolution!

Also, show me one place where it says "preferred" in any regulation on training requirements.

[SARDOC]

If the Air University won't allow Majors and above enroll in the Squadron Officer Course then NHQ needs to change the website because it clearly reads Captain (or higher).

[Eclipse]

Also, show me one place where it says "preferred" in any regulation on training requirements.

http://tinyurl.com/3ch7h43

[Ed Bos]

Also, show me one place where it says "preferred" in any regulation on training requirements.

http://tinyurl.com/3ch7h43

HA! That's hilarious.

And inappropriate, to wit, the Air University courses that are equivalent to CAP courses are equally acceptable, and no more preferred by anyone. Except as an opinion.

The decision to pursue SOS, ACSC, and AWC is a decision made by individuals, with the guidance and support of their peers and mentors. You don't get to decide that attending RSC or NSC are preferred for anyone. Your opinion is not "self evident," and saying so may indicate a level of arrogance that I would certainly hope is an inaccurate assessment of your character.

Edit: To be abundantly clear, I respect you and your service, and your comments in this case are what I'm criticizing.  I do not wish to name-call, and I earnestly believe you must be more reasonable in a face-to-face forum than this online one. Again, criticizing your comments, not yourself, Eclipse.

[Eclipse]

As a registered smarty pants, I take what I give...

"equally acceptable" doesn't mean "preferred". 

How many of us know members who were successful military officers who enter CAP with a folder of certificates, and are promoted to advanced grade and attain the majority of their PD levels through outside equivalences, then struggle to serve effectively at their grade level because they
know very little about CAP?

I wouldn't call that "preferred."

The intention of the PD program is to grow effective staff members through direct training and member networking.  Those who choose an equivalence,
especially one wholly unrelated to CAP, are missing the point. 

I've completed Level IV, all without waivers or equivelnces, and served on staff for any number of SLS/CLC/TLC, etc. For the most part, the best part of these seminars was the networking between members and getting a fresh perspective from others in the same trench.  You can't get that online, or from a USAF class that never even mentions CAP.

[Ed Bos]

"equally acceptable" doesn't mean "preferred". 

The intention of the PD program is to grow effective staff members through direct training and member networking.  Those who choose an equivalence, especially one wholly unrelated to CAP, are missing the point. 

I'm not intimating that "equally acceptable" means "preferred." I'm insisting that the preference is individual, and not up to me or anyone else.

If you prefer to see folks go to RSC & NSC, that's fine. I prefer people make an informed decision, evaluate their options, and decide what's best for them without being bullied because of someone's say-so.

Let's not forget that we're the Air Force's Auxiliary, and learning more about how the Air Force works via the same exacting coursework that Air Force members are required to take is a privilege that we are extended. I'd say that's just as important as networking with your peers for a week. Not to mention that you can network at conferences and other venues just as successfully.

And finally, no one should be expected to know their job from attending a week-long seminar. To discourage correspondence courses with a lot of good (IMHO) information for the sake of just getting CAP specific information ignores the fact that personnel are supposed to be getting on-the-job training, and have open lines of communication with their counterparts already.

[N Harmon]

PD courses are tickets you punch to get promoted. It is worth it to attend as many as you can, even if they're not required for your promotion or specialty.  You don't go from being just not ready for Major to suddenly promotable just because you go attend a course for a week.

[Eclipse]

Let's not forget that we're the Air Force's Auxiliary, and learning more about how the Air Force works via the same exacting coursework that Air Force members are required to take is a privilege that we are extended. I'd say that's just as important as networking with your peers for a week. Not to mention that you can network at conferences and other venues just as successfully.

And finally, no one should be expected to know their job from attending a week-long seminar. To discourage correspondence courses with a lot of good (IMHO) information for the sake of just getting CAP specific information ignores the fact that personnel are supposed to be getting on-the-job training, and have open lines of communication with their counterparts already.

I have no issue with correspondence course, per-se, however they are not really appropriate in the CAP paradigm.  When USAF people take them, it is generally because they are already ensconced 24x7 in USAF culture and activity.  When CAP people take them it is generally exactly the opposite, and they don't have time to fit CAP into their schedule, which, to me, is kind of a self-correcting issue and part of the point.  If yo don't have time for CAP, you don't have time, period.

Pamphlet-fodder and buzz words aside, I'd like to really know what you think ACSC, AWC, or even SOS is even relevant to the practical, real-world
universe of the average laterally-mobile CAP member.

[AirDX]

Here's a simple equation for you:

RSC cost for me: $1200 minimum.
SOS cost: $0.

Which do you think was preferred in my book?             

[Ed Bos]

Pamphlet-fodder and buzz words aside, I'd like to really know what you think ACSC, AWC, or even SOS is even relevant to the practical, real-world universe of the average laterally-mobile CAP member.

Real world, it's insight into our sponsoring service and the world they maneuver in.  It's discussions on leadership, management, military programs and global issues that give perspective into how the AF operates in conjunction with her sister services, and by extension, how we must fall into the picture.

If we understand what the AF is trying to accomplish along their assigned missions, we can understand why CAP is supported the way it is.

Buzz-words aside, it's valuable information for anyone who wants it.

Honestly, in serving at unit level, wing level, and now being attached to the NESA schoolhouse unit, I doubt there's anything as valuable to me in the RSC/NSC curriculum that I haven't already gotten from knowing what I know and networking with the personnel I talk to already. So the option to take SOS and ACSC have been a valuable privilege that I was glad to avail myself of.

As with anything else, individuals will benefit from their opportunities according to their perspective and abilities. It doesn't matter which courses you take, at the end of the day, it's all up to individuals to make or break the chances their given with the tools at hand.

[Eclipse]

Real world, it's insight into our sponsoring service and the world they maneuver in.  It's discussions on leadership, management, military programs and global issues that give perspective into how the AF operates in conjunction with her sister services, and by extension, how we must fall into the picture.

If we understand what the AF is trying to accomplish along their assigned missions, we can understand why CAP is supported the way it is.

And how much information regarding USAF-assigned CAP missions is contained in these classes?  The majority of members have no contact with,
or need to understand, the USAF's combat role and taskings beyond the lesser-abstract of the CAP culture.  CAP's USAF-Assigned missions rarely intersect the USAF's broader defense roles except in extremely unusual cases like intercept assistance.

Our leaders are far better served with a ground-level knowledge of eservices and leading in the volunteer paradigm then time spent studying
war-fighting doctrine or the history of Linebacker.

Buzz-words aside, it's valuable information for anyone who wants it.

To whom and for what?  There's lots of valuable information I want, but unless it is directly relevent to a member's CAP service, CAP should not be involved in providing it or giving people credit for it.  We don't have the time or resources to provide generalized education to our members which is not directly relevant to our day-to-day operations and activities.

Honestly, in serving at unit level, wing level, and now being attached to the NESA schoolhouse unit, I doubt there's anything as valuable to me in the RSC/NSC curriculum that I haven't already gotten from knowing what I know and networking with the personnel I talk to already. So the option to take SOS and ACSC have been a valuable privilege that I was glad to avail myself of.

I would sadly have to agree to a point on this as well, although I would hazard our experiences are not necessarily common to all CAP members.
And further, due to program issues, far too many members take the respective classes too late.   SLS is supposed to be taken before you have a significant role in a unit or group, RSC before you have a significant role in a wing or Region, and NSC before you assume major jobs at the national level.

[Short Field]

When USAF people take them, it is generally because they are already ensconced 24x7 in USAF culture and activity.

USAF Officer now only take them if they are not selected to go in-residence.  It is a rack & stack by a selection board and all the non-selects take it by distance learning.  In the Army, you take the the distance learning courses after the rack & stack - and if you get selected for a distance learning course.  Top percent goes in-residence, next group get to complete it by distance learning, and the rest don't get it on their record.

BITD, we took them by distance learning in order to improve our odds of being selected by the in-residence selection board.  I was in a AWC seminar and the Army member had to drop out because he was not selected for in-residence or distance learning.

[AirDX]

And how much information regarding USAF-assigned CAP missions is contained in these classes?  The majority of members have no contact with,
or need to understand, the USAF's combat role and taskings beyond the lesser-abstract of the CAP culture.  CAP's USAF-Assigned missions rarely intersect the USAF's broader defense roles except in extremely unusual cases like intercept assistance.

Our leaders are far better served with a ground-level knowledge of eservices and leading in the volunteer paradigm then time spent studying
war-fighting doctrine or the history of Linebacker.

And by this you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge of the actual content of the current SOS course 20.  The 3 course modules are concerned with ethical leadership, building teams, and decision making.  There are articles discussing and giving examples of all the subjects in the context of the major military operations of the last 25 years, but no warfighting doctrine or "Linebacker" history.  I think CAP has seen plenty of instances where ethical leadership has failed; I think team building is universal, though you will trumpet how it's somehow different with CAP, and decision making is universally applicable.

I could no doubt make a case for ethics training in SOS being better than what's given in RSC (if it's even touched on there; I don't know) but at least in SOS I had to study the material, and pass a test on it, not sit in a room full of doughnut and coffee suckers and be lectured for an hour about it.  How many fail the final exam in RSC?

I have a wing job among my various hats; I talk to my peers and the folks at region, I get all the institutional knowledge I need in real time.  And what, you want me to take a course in how to use e-services?  Don't waste my time.

Now I'm not slamming RSC, even though I sound like it a bit.  Our region RSC (PCR) is supposed to be awesome, I'm sure it's every bit as good as I've been told.  I, however, don't see it as an absolute need for me (though I would love to actually go), and as I mention up topic, I have a lot better things to use the money it would cost me to go to RSC for.  I think you are just getting on your high horse, my-way-or-the-highway, and don't want to admit that there are aspects to both that fit different people's needs perfectly adequately.

More importantly, it's in the reg, has been for a long time, powerful and influential people have put it in and left it in, so complaining is moot.  Do what you think is right.  Say FIDO.   

[SAR-EMT1]

One could also spin this as the AF saying that CAP Majors are equivalent to AF Majors   

In terms of the Air University paperwork system , we are... Which as I explained in an earlier post on another thread  is why for many years the Air Force assumed all who enrolled in AFIADL courses (SOS, ACSC, AWC had already completed a BS/BA)
Because they thought that CAP required it for Officer Ranks.

[SAR-EMT1]

You have another option. ACSC will also count for RSC and is available to CAP majors.

Negative. AFIADL requires ACSC applicants to be SOS grads or a grad of a sister service program: Army Advanced Officer's course etc...

AWC applicants must show proof of ACSC attendance or equivalent as well as proof of time served as a Commander at the squadron level or higher. ( Or command of a naval vessel - for Navy/CG applicants)
( CAP Squadron CC time counts - or at least it did- )

[ELTHunter]

I enrolled in SOS as a Major a couple of years ago but dropped due to time constraints.  Anybody who believes SOS was a "short cut" to LtCol promotion has never seen the curriculum requirements of SOS.  There are several modules, all of which require a seperate test to be administered by a test admin (whom I believe has to be CAP-USAF or USAF).  It is a very reading intensive course and isn't simply sitting at home "checking the box". 

On the other hand, how many people that have attended an RSC have been sent home or otherwise not completed it?  As a degreed professional with over 20 years management experience, I couldn't imagine what benefit I could get out of attending an in-residence CAP class other than losing a week of my life to CAP that I will never get back.  I would much rather spend my PTO at a cadet encampment, NESA or some other CAP activity and actually accomplish something.  I viewed SOS as a way to be more aligned with the USAF requirements and actually learn something I might not otherwise have to learn.

[SARDOC]

On the other hand, how many people that have attended an RSC have been sent home or otherwise not completed it?  As a degreed professional with over 20 years management experience, I couldn't imagine what benefit I could get out of attending an in-residence CAP class other than losing a week of my life to CAP that I will never get back.  I would much rather spend my PTO at a cadet encampment, NESA or some other CAP activity and actually accomplish something.  I viewed SOS as a way to be more aligned with the USAF requirements and actually learn something I might not otherwise have to learn.

I recently attended the Middle Eastern Region Staff College.  I highly recommend attending this school.  It was actually a very challenging and rewarding experience.  I can't really explain it because their curriculum was actually very well thought out and planned.  I went into it thinking the whole CAP professional Development program was weak and not really worth the effort other than to check the block.  That was not the case with the MER RSC.  Developed Friends and fellow CAP professionals from around the Country.  I liked it so much that I'd like to go back as staff if they would ever invite me.  I wish they'd push this curriculum out to the other RSC's and you'd see people change their tune about CAP PD.

[SamFranklin]

PD courses are tickets you punch to get promoted.

That may be your view, but I disagree that that is how the system is designed.

One would hope that students attend PD courses because they are trying to find new ways of contributing more effectively to the CAP mission. Considering that we're talking about courses whose subject matter is professionalism, it's ironic that you see the courses as a"tickets you punch." That's a terribly impoverished view.

Properly understood, PD activities do not lead to promotions and awards -- that's backwards.  Rather, CAP shows its appreciation to volunteers who make a commitment to professionalism by recognizing those members via the promotions and awards system. You won't find that written down in any regulation, but the basic concept of "professionalism" tells us it has to be this way and not the other. 

[tonyairplane]

I heard from someone at Wing HQ that this has been fixed, CAP Majors may be accepted in this course now.

[SAR-EMT1]

I heard from someone at Wing HQ that this has been fixed, CAP Majors may be accepted in this course now.

With proof of a BA / BS degree.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

One would hope that students attend PD courses because they are trying to find new ways of contributing more effectively to the CAP mission. Considering that we're talking about courses whose subject matter is professionalism, it's ironic that you see the courses as a"tickets you punch." That's a terribly impoverished view.

And I took SOS because it offered a different take. It showed me better what Ma Blue does, and that process is far better thought out and implemented than CAP's. We'd do well to incorporate elements of SOS and other AF PME into our senior training program. We might even cultivate better leaders. Instead, we have a penchant for reinventing the wheel every chance we get, rather than use existing doctrine and training (to eliminate inefficiencies) to make us better. I dare say the Organizational Excellence track would be better served with AFSO21.

After nearly three decades in CAP, going back to when I joined as a cadet in 1984, I had a fairly good grasp on how CAP does things. Region Staff College likely would be a waste of time for me, as a result, other than to punch a ticket. SOS opened the windows to new ways to solve problems, more thinking about what makes leaders good leaders and how best to motivate troops, and even some contemplation about how different cultures interact -- and yes, that impacts CAP, too.

Don't just do SOS for the promotion. Do it because it will make you more capable. The promotion will come, at least if you have the right people in your corner and can somehow stay out of the politics. But know that it will make you more valuable.

[DBlair]

Personally, I plan on taking the AF PME (SOS/ACSC/AWC) route rather than CAP RSC/NSC route as I find the AF route to be of much more benefit.

I've found that in many cases, the real/greatest benefit of CAP courses is not the course materials, but rather the networking beyond your usual squadron/local area. There are some CAP courses that have made me roll my eyes at this being taken seriously as a course, but then, the face-time with key people and the networking opportunities in general are what seem to make up for the lacking course curriculum. Even if not trying to get on the fast track within CAP, meeting and interacting with other members and key people allows for increased perspectives (etc) has a certain level of benefit. That said, I won't be spending the money or time away from work on RSC or NSC, or at least not anytime soon.

Regarding some of the other comments in this thread, I would agree that CAP PD courses are largely seen/presented as spoon-fed 'checking the box' courses rather than on courses really providing much educational benefit (exception being the TLC course, possibly others), and is something I see as a problem.

As long as the member shows up, I don't think I've ever seen anyone not pass a CAP PD course. This sets an organizational tone and part of why these courses aren't taken seriously by many. Contributing factors for low course quality involve low standards/expectations, instructors who themselves may be lacking in knowledge, experience, etc, and a variety of other possible factors. Perhaps raising the standard on PD courses is something to consider.



Question relating to original thread topic...

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

[MSG Mac]

b]Question relating to original thread topic...[/b]

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

If you've aleady been accepted, you'tr golden

[SAR-EMT1]

b]Question relating to original thread topic...[/b]

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

If you've aleady been accepted, you'tr golden

Honestly it is a toss up, however, regardless of whether or not he is pulled from SOS, he would most likely be ineligible for ACSC ( Due to rank) and therefore be barred from both ACSC and hence AWC. ( A method around this is to enroll in the USN correspondence program ) 

[DBlair]

b]Question relating to original thread topic...[/b]

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

If you've aleady been accepted, you'tr golden

Honestly it is a toss up, however, regardless of whether or not he is pulled from SOS, he would most likely be ineligible for ACSC ( Due to rank) and therefore be barred from both ACSC and hence AWC. ( A method around this is to enroll in the USN correspondence program )

CAP members are allowed to enroll in the USN correspondence programs?

[SAR-EMT1]

b]Question relating to original thread topic...[/b]

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

If you've aleady been accepted, you'tr golden

Honestly it is a toss up, however, regardless of whether or not he is pulled from SOS, he would most likely be ineligible for ACSC ( Due to rank) and therefore be barred from both ACSC and hence AWC. ( A method around this is to enroll in the USN correspondence program )

CAP members are allowed to enroll in the USN correspondence programs?

Yes, with a very few provisos. CAPTALK has several current members that have enrolled in the USN DL program at one time or another.  ... Just expect all coursework to be Masters/Doctorate level material.

[fyrfitrmedic]

b]Question relating to original thread topic...[/b]

If a Captain is currently enrolled in SOS, but will soon (awaiting paperwork) be promoted to Lt Col, will he be allowed to finish SOS without issue, or will he be pulled from the course?

If you've aleady been accepted, you'tr golden

Honestly it is a toss up, however, regardless of whether or not he is pulled from SOS, he would most likely be ineligible for ACSC ( Due to rank) and therefore be barred from both ACSC and hence AWC. ( A method around this is to enroll in the USN correspondence program )

CAP members are allowed to enroll in the USN correspondence programs?

Yes, with a very few provisos. CAPTALK has several current members that have enrolled in the USN DL program at one time or another.  ... Just expect all coursework to be Masters/Doctorate level material.

I remember seeing this mentioned quite some time ago, but don't remember seeing any info on how it's done... of course, I may have missed something obvious.

[SAR-EMT1]

As I remember O-Rex was the first CAP'r to participate. I will see if I can get hold of him to share his recollections.

[SAR-EMT1]

O-Rex
Salty & Seasoned Contributor
Re: Navy DL Program
« Sent to: SAR-EMT1 on: Today at 03:53:48 PM »
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on Today at 03:14:46 PM

    Sir,
    Recently a member in the Membership boards was asking for information regarding CAP partaking in the Navy DL program. It is my understanding that you are a graduate of one of their programs, and was hoping you could post a quick paragraph about the program and your experiences.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm about 75% through the program, took a 2 year hiatus because life happens.  When I signed up for the program, Navy admissions actually contacted CAP NHQ to ensure that I was who I said I was, and verified that I was a college grad.  completed 3 of 4 courses, they are in blackboard format and there are time constraints on submissions, its GRADUATE level work, so there are a lot of mini-papers, and even the open-book exams are no pushover.

If anyone is so inclined and motivated, its a great course.  It especially worked for me as I subsequently joined the CGAUX, and the whole Naval thing helped me assimilate the organizational culture a little quicker.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: Graduates of the DL program are eligible to attend graduation ceremonies if they so desire.
ALSO: Completion can result in a masters. 
- Edgar

[SARDOC]

now if you can reply back to him and find out the process for enrollment...this sounds like an interesting opportunity

[SAR-EMT1]

 would warn anyone thinking of enrolling in this program in the HIGHEST possible terms:

1) CAP is VERY new to the project officers of this course (O-Rex is the first CAP member to ever be allowed in)

2) Dis-enrollment of a CAP member from this program mid-semester for any reason could result in the permanent revocation
of our ability for future CAP officers to enroll in this program. - O-Rex took a break at the end of a semester-
( Any Naval Officer that is dropped mid-term receives a strong admonishment in his service jacket )     

3) Any applicant must already possess a BA/BS, have completed SOS or equivalent (This course is the Navy equal of ACSC) and transcripts from your college and the Air Force / Army etc... must be forwarded prior to acceptance in the program.

A  GPA of 3.0 or higher during your BA/BS work is HIGHLY recommended. - The material is heavy on science and paper writing. It is definitely graduate level material.

[RiverAux]

What courses do they have that would be of benefit to CAP members?

[SAR-EMT1]

What courses do they have that would be of benefit to CAP members?

In the general sense, the course espouses leadership, management and communication skills.
In terms of direct benefit, that is for you to decide. River, being dual hatted you might especially like this course.

[DBlair]

This seems *very* interesting.

[Buzz]

One could also spin this as the AF saying that CAP Majors are equivalent to AF Majors   

I can't think of any faster way to get this problem resolved than to make that suggestion OFFICIALLY.

[Airborne Medic]

If your having issues enrolling in the SOC I'd call Air University myself if I were you.  I take AU courses using my position as an Army officer all the time and that always causes a hiccup with their system because I am taking courses that are usually reserved for enlisted ranks so I just give them a call and the problem is fixed.  They are very easy to talk with and quiet helpful.

[O-Rex]

Sure, a lot of the content does not apply to CAP, but a big takeaway from Military PME courses is the is the opportunity to receive quality instruction and to understand how our patron service works.  There is nothing more satisfying than being able to interact with USAF with the ability to "speak their language" and give them the impression that there are actually members who 'get it."  It certainly offsets some of the times that RM personnel groan when they see CAP members coming (I've actually seen this.)

Perhaps if more CAP members completed SOS/ACSC/AWC we could eventually bridge the widening cultural gap between CAP and USAF.

[a2capt]

Perhaps if CAP was discussed just a *little* more during BMT it might also go towards lessening that gap .. But that is another thread.

[SARDOC]

Perhaps if more CAP members completed SOS/ACSC/AWC we could eventually bridge the widening cultural gap between CAP and USAF.

That is a great point and I agree.  Now CAP members can't take it unless they have a bachelors degree.  I'd see fewer CAP members taking these classes.  I still think there is a benefit to RSC and NSC as well though because they are more CAP specific.

[DBlair]

Perhaps if more CAP members completed SOS/ACSC/AWC we could eventually bridge the widening cultural gap between CAP and USAF.

That is a great point and I agree.  Now CAP members can't take it unless they have a bachelors degree.  I'd see fewer CAP members taking these classes.  I still think there is a benefit to RSC and NSC as well though because they are more CAP specific.

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I find it interesting that many SMs really enjoy holding Officer grade, and any benefits/courtesies that come with it, but then have an issue with any minimum standards for Officers, such as a Bachelor's degree when they should be happy they are "Officers" to begin with as a result of no real CAP commissioning standards.

I wonder if by CAP establishing such standards, it would help the AF (etc) take CAP a bit more seriously and as competent professionals rather than essentially rolling their eyes at CAP members wearing Officer grade, as soon as they learn that CAP's path to commissioning is all of: Join (HS Graduate) + wait 6 months = 2d Lt.


Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

[Salty]

I agree with the above sentiment.  I cherish my BA and I'm currently working on my MA.

[Eclipse]

Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

You don't increase expectations and standards without also increasing benefits.
Want college degrees?  Provide the funding and then billet people into jobs worthy of said degrees. 

CAP is not about "meeting military standards" (whatever that means), it is about volunteers providing professionalized services to their
country and community at the level at which they are able, building their skills and abilities through hands-on experience, and being respected
for the service itself, on its own terms, without a lot of nonsense from people who don't understand the question.

[SARDOC]

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I'm not sure but we did a survey when I went to RSC.  We had about 24 Students and only about half had a Bachelors degree, 4 had Masters...none of them had a doctorate.   I know that is not a scientific poll...but that seems like a high amount of Non degree earners in the group for a group that was mostly CAP Majors.  The number might be higher than you think.

[DBlair]

Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

You don't increase expectations and standards without also increasing benefits.
Want college degrees?  Provide the funding and then billet people into jobs worthy of said degrees. 

CAP is not about "meeting military standards" (whatever that means), it is about volunteers providing professionalized services to their
country and community at the level at which they are able, building their skills and abilities through hands-on experience, and being respected
for the service itself, on its own terms, without a lot of nonsense from people who don't understand the question.

By no means am I saying that CAP should not be about volunteer service, or that members should not be appreciated/recognized for all that is done. I am very much a cheerleader for all that we do as an organization.

What I'm saying is that when commissioning is handed out like the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality, and all it takes is joining with a HS diploma/GED, waiting 6 months, and then pretty much hocus pocus the member is a 2d Lt, it reduces the credibility of our "Officers" and I've heard countless conversations where this seems to come up and raises eyebrows with CAP "Officers" not being taken seriously as a result-- anytime someone learns what it takes to become a 2d Lt in CAP, immediate change in perspective seems to follow.

As for military standards, I was speaking to the requirement of a degree being required for commissioning (yes, I am aware of the Army bending things with the 90 credit commissioning/degree by O-3 policy) and also that there should be some sort of process leading to a commissioning as I feel that when it is handed out so easily and casually, it loses a certain amount of je ne sais quoi.

Personally, I wouldn't mind the SM program expanding and revising a bit, nor would I mind getting closer to the AF.

[Eclipse]

Our member credibility has absolutely nothing to do with a diploma on their wall, or lack thereof, and everything to do with our execution an attitude.

[Airborne Medic]

Sir,

When I'm not perfoming my volunteer service in CAP, I am an Active Duty Army Officer.  Just to let you and anyone else thats interested know, approximatley 90 days ago the Army changed its policy and will no longer allow candidates into OCS unless they have their bachelors degree.  The only direct commissions authorized now are for licensed medical and law professionals.  The days of 90 credits are gone along with much of the budget after the "super committee" failure.  I am concerned about how CAP will be affected since the operational funding for the organization comes out of the Air Force butdget.  If they can't put fuel in the fighters, then I dont see how they can can continue to fund CAP activities in the manner that they have been.

As far as you comment about the CAP commissioning, I totally agree!  I have seen some real yahoo's wearing CPT and MAJ rank and it really goes to their head.  These type individuals have no military bearing and sometimes their level of maturity is below that of some of the kids that are cadets.   Even each state headquarters of the Army National Guard requires anyone wanting to be an officer, that cannot go to the AD OCS,  to attend their state OCS programs which is one full weekend per month for 12 months with a two week training period in the summertime.  I'm not saying that CAP should take it to that level but maybe something similar would be appropriate; however, I'm not holding my breath. 

CPT Brown
Health Services Officer
SC Wing, CAP

[Eclipse]

I have seen some real yahoo's wearing CPT and MAJ rank and it really goes to their head.

A liberal arts degree isn't going to change that.

[MSG Mac]

" Even each state headquarters of the Army National Guard requires anyone wanting to be an officer, that cannot go to the AD OCS,  to attend their state OCS programs which is one full weekend per month for 12 months with a two week training period in the summertime.  I'm not saying that CAP should take it to that level but maybe something similar would be appropriate; however, I'm not holding my breath."

Believe it or not, there used to be a requirement that Senior Members complete an Officer Candidate Course prior to comissioning. That was 40 years ago or more. A better requirement would be receiving the Davis Award before commissioning.   

[Eclipse]

Can we all please refrain from using the term "commissioned".  We aren't.  We're appointed, which is another huge difference in the expectations.

Commissioned officers in the military have legal authority and responsibility, with the expectation of obedience of their subordinates and
guidance of their superiors.

The civil responsibility resting on the shoulders of our members far exceeds that of any of their peer organizations - I have issued equipment in my truck worth more than the annual operating budget of most BSA units, and bending an airplane could bankrupt a member.  Having criminal
penalties regarding actions (or failure to act) attached to that is simply not reasonable for inconsistently trained volunteers.

[SARDOC]

I hate to go off on the tangent again.  But this is one of the reasons why CAP should really consider bringing back a real for lack of a better phrase "enlisted" rank structure.  It would allow the flexibility to change professional development characteristics  to increase the training for those we make officers of our organization.  Rank means things to people we deal with on the outside.  It displays among other things like leadership roles, seniority responsibility among other things.  If you are on the Scene of a car crash and you see a police "lieutenant" you would expect they've had more than just an intro class on what their organization is and does.  Lieutenants in the military are for the most part entry level but with significant education/training on what their job is supposed to be.  That is not true for our organization.  when dealing with Emergency Services if you went into a briefing wearing lieutenant bars on your collar...some may think you are the senior person from your agency.  Sorry to rant on but when dealing with outside agencies we should just have more training for those we consider officers in our organization.  It's about managing expectations.

[PHall]

Just to let you and anyone else thats interested know, approximatley 90 days ago the Army changed its policy and will no longer allow candidates into OCS unless they have their bachelors degree.  The only direct commissions authorized now are for licensed medical and law professionals.
CPT Brown
Health Services Officer
SC Wing, CAP

You mean the Army finally decided to get in step with the other services on this? About time...

[necigrad]

Just curious, do *that* many CAP Senior Members (especially Capt, Maj, Lt Col) not have properly (Regionally) accredited Bachelor's Degrees that it would be much of an issue?

I find it interesting that many SMs really enjoy holding Officer grade, and any benefits/courtesies that come with it, but then have an issue with any minimum standards for Officers, such as a Bachelor's degree when they should be happy they are "Officers" to begin with as a result of no real CAP commissioning standards.

I wonder if by CAP establishing such standards, it would help the AF (etc) take CAP a bit more seriously and as competent professionals rather than essentially rolling their eyes at CAP members wearing Officer grade, as soon as they learn that CAP's path to commissioning is all of: Join (HS Graduate) + wait 6 months = 2d Lt.


Personally, I'm eager to take as many RM courses as I can through CAP, and have no issue with them adding requirements that align us with the RM. If anything, we should cherish this as it brings us closer to AF standards, etc.

Don't come here much, so apologies for reviving a two week old thread.

This thread was started by someone claiming that SOS was a REQUIREMENT for promotion in CAP.  Sadly, no one said "No, it's not".

Now, DBlair, I don't have the stats, but I wanted (and still do) to take SOS, and depending on how that went, eventually ACSC and AWC.  I'm a civilian, never having been in the military, and would like to delve into the PME, but with caution.  Alas, I only have an AOS, and and currently working on a AA and AAS at a 3.74 GPA (Early World Lit killed me ;-)).  The fact that I don't have a BA or BS has absolutely zero reflections on my abilities, in life, work, or CAP.  Because CAP has no Enlisted path, the Officer track is what it is.  Whether there should be one is another debate, but until that changes, even suggesting that a SM should be required to have a degree to advance is absurd.  I've been in CAP for 5 years now, and in that time I've done everything I can fit into my schedule that includes FT work, PT school, and volunteering in two different organizations.  Those that know me know that I'm somewhat intelligent, always seeking to learn more, and participate in every activity I can.

My rank of Captain does not represent what it does to you.  To me it represents what I've done in our organization and how I've sought to improve myself in the same.  That is what my rank means to me, to CAP, and it should to you, now, when I was a 2Lt four years ago, or when I'm a LtC whenever that might eventually happen.    Please don't put something false onto what I've earned because you misunderstand.

EDIT:  Also DBlair, I do apologize, I seem to have mixed slightly into my reply to you comments about other posts as well.