Duty Performance Promotion Blues

[Eclipse]

Actually, the promotion for HSO's that requires them to be appointed to that staff position is Capt to Maj for Medical Officers with a doctorate. Otherwise, there is no requirement to be serving in that duty assignment. Right, Wrong, or Otherwise, that's what the reg says.

True enough, but few region CC's are going to promote someone to Lt. Col. if they aren't even serving in a staff position.
Without a staff job you aren't an HSO, you're just a member who happens to be a medical professional, and it is going to
be difficult to me the "serving" criteria for promotion.

[AirAux]

Eclipse, you noted, "You also ignored the question about what you think you have done for CAP that entitles you to the grade of Lt. Col. ahead of your peers.  These conversations are why most units don't appoint HSO's."  I failed to see anywhere that RNOfficer was attempting to get promoted AHEAD of his/her peers.  RNOfficer noted she/he had time in grade.  All Major's with completed requirements, including time in grade are on equal footing to RNOfficer for promotion and there are no slots, so no one is left behind.  I am disappointed at your open disdain for HSO's.  I thought CAP welcomed everyone.  I have never known a HSO or Legal Officer that did not do more than their professional rating in a squadron.  They are well educated, highly motivated, very professional, well disciplined, and almost always willing to do anything asked of them.  Most of them understand teamwork better than your local bluecollar worker, and I am not maligning them, only stating personal experience.

[Eclipse]

The "peers" in this case are not other majors or other HSOs, they are RNofficer's fellow unit members that he/she will need to
look in the face wearing clusters while they all participate in RSC, SLS/CLC, and the other PD that makes them well-rounded, informed members.

Legal officers can ply their trade in CAP, MD's, RN's, LPN's, and EMT's, etc., cannot, at least at a professional level beyond what anyone with a first aid card can do.

In many wings general medical practitioners can't even teach first aid classes because the wing wants a professional organization to assume that liability and issue the certification.  As I have said before, when MO's start giving free flight physicals to pilots and related disciplines start providing medical treatment at no cost you will have my attention, until then, there is little need or use for HSO's specific to their professional skills - any more than we need brick layers, or cable installers.

That doesn't lesson our need for educated people with professional managerial skills, only that because of CAP's conservative nature they can't do anything they have been trained to do.  This is no different, really, than a comm guy in a unit with no radios, or a professional adolescent counselor in a unit with no cadets.

My question is valid considering the level of entitlement exhibited - you appoint someone to an unnecessary staff position, promote them based on skills CAP can't use, and then instead of "thank you, now I will learn about CAP to show I deserve this grade", you get "more, please".

[RNOfficer]

What I am not prepared to do is complete requirement expressly not required. The Regulations don't require CAP Professional Development deliberately. All Professional Appointments must complete mandated Continuing Education Requirements. Most will do more. A CAP Officer who is a tire salesman doesn't have that burden.

Excellent attitude - the difference being the tire salesman will actually have to work CAP's program instead of relying on an attitude of entitlement based on outside qualifications that are of dubious value to CAP.

The mere fact that you would belittle a non-professional member is indicative of where you believe you exist in the universal hierarchy.

You also ignored the question about what you think you have done for CAP that entitles you to the grade of Lt. Col. ahead of your peers.  These conversations are why most units don't appoint HSO's.

Just when you thought the level of discussion could sink no lower, along comes someone to set a new standard.

[RNOfficer]

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

A commander exercising personal judgement in denying someone a promotion, despite their on-paper minimum eligibility, is not only not a violation of regulations, but their fiduciary responsibility to the organization.

Perhaps you would understand that better if you spent some time completing CAP PD.

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

[EMT-83]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Absolutely not true. Of course you can participate in the Senior Member Professional Development program.

If you or your commander need guidance in this area, check with NHQ.

[davidsinn]

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

A commander exercising personal judgement in denying someone a promotion, despite their on-paper minimum eligibility, is not only not a violation of regulations, but their fiduciary responsibility to the organization.

Perhaps you would understand that better if you spent some time completing CAP PD.

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

[RNOfficer]

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

[jeders]

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

Kudos on you.

You are right that the regs say you don't need to do the regular PD, but you also forget that the Wing HSO has to recommend you before the Wing CC approves. If you really want to know if you deserve a promotion, talk to your squadron commander and the Wing HSO and go from there.

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander, if I had someone being such a poor example of CAP's Core Values, not only would I not endorse your promotion request, I would want to look into demotion. Of course the attitude you've shown leads me to wonder, do you know what CAP's Core Values are and do you think that you are exhibiting them here?

[Eclipse]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

As noted, there is no restriction for members to participate in PD, regardless of their specialty or staff posting, and as a matter of fact, Chaplains receiving special appointments must meet normal PD and TIG for subsequent promotions.
Not required does not equal = not allowed.

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

Your continuing education is a requirement of your professional accreditation and employment, not relevant to CAP.  When you add up the things members do to complete PD like SLS/CLC/TLC/RSC, they generally add up to at least that much or more every year.

[RiverAux]

RN, you may not have realized this when you posted, but there are a fair number of people on CAPTalk who question the value of the professional and mission-related skills promotion system in the first place.  There is also a very sizable contingent of folks who believe that CAP's entire rank system needs re-working but that in the interim commanders should put a whole lot more emphasis on the "serving in an exemplary manner" requirement and not just promote automatically when all the boxes have been checked. 

[AirAux]

After all, RN, you are already way overpaid for your CAP work and we just can't afford adding another Lt.Col. to the retirement rolls.  Someday, when you grow up and become a real Wannabee, whether it be military, Emergency Services and/or Search and Rescue Hero, come back and talk to us.  After all, we truly believe that if you're not with us, you're against us.  Of course nobody knows or cares whether you are trained in mass casualty triage/treatment, epidemic speciality, or a psychiatric nurse trained in working with stressed CAP volunteers.  My advice, type up your own promotion and submit it.  If it isn't approved for a valid reason, file an IG complaint and follow up with a discrimination law suit.  Obviously if you are a Major, you have several years with CAP and have contributed to some degree.  I apologize for my colleagues, we're not all of the same mold.  If you need help, let me know.   

[RNOfficer]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

[DakRadz]

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

This is the other part of his post- you seemed to have missed it, or deleted it before reading, but it is a rather key part.

someone being such a poor example of CAP's Core Values, not only would I not endorse your promotion request, I would want to look into demotion. Of course the attitude you've shown leads me to wonder, do you know what CAP's Core Values are and do you think that you are exhibiting them here?

[MSG Mac]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Chaplains have been required to participate in Professional Development for several years now. If the CAPR 160

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

RN, I suggest that you consult the Membership Code of Conduct before making any more posts on here.

[EMT-83]

A serious question, I'm not busting your chops: what exactly do you do as Nurse Officer?

You said that you perform your duties in an exemplary manner. Could you expand on that, so I can understand your position?

[davidsinn]

Of course nobody knows or cares whether you are trained in mass casualty triage/treatment, epidemic speciality, or a psychiatric nurse

And these help our missions how exactly?

I could make a pretty good argument that my professional skills are more useful to CAP than that of a nurse given the current state of our regs. I am a drafter and among my skillset I am trained to draw maps. I am trained to interpret technical documents and process data and turn it into a coherent whole. Since my tool is a computer I'm pretty good at making them work and maintaining them. These are skills that directly help our missions. I do not get any advanced promotion for them nor do I think I should.

I do not appreciate the holier than thou attitude that I see exhibited by every HSO I've met, nor the entitled attitude exhibited by the OP.

The continuing education argument thrown out earlier doesn't fly either because that's really no different than mandatory overtime for anybody else. We mere mortals are expected to do PD. Heck even the chaplains are expected to now and they work weekends which is when most PD is.

[flyboy53]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

And so, you have debated the issue in this forum without seeking the advice of those in your chain of command. I understand your frustration, but I question the attitude you have displayed, especially since I know of a practicing medical doctor who is a lieutenant colonel and who has completed all the PD requirements for that rank....all the while never questioning that requirement.

Remember this, regulations aside, as a promotion, especially to the rank of lieutenant colonel, winds its way through the chain of command, it will be put before a promotion board to determine merit at least once or twice. Certainly, the approving or nominating commander is to determine promotion criteria uniformly. However, the commander does and will set policy throughout his or her command that could result in a denial of promotion. That's why he or she is the COMMANDER.

I have served in three wings where the wing commander set a policy limiting promotions of lieutenant colonels for exactly the same reasons my estemed colleagues have tried advise you in this forum.  That's just the way it is, the commander has the authority to recommend or reject a promotion request based on merit (his intrepretation). And if not the wing commander, it WILL be the region commander. Look for that policy to be reinforced strongly in larger wings or regions.

Admittedly, I know very little of the duties, training and professional requirements of a CAP nurse officer, I do know that in a board situation, more than your professional qualifications will be reviewed for justification. Certainly, as a nurse officer, you are invaluable to the CAP. However, in a board situation, I'm certain the nod for promotion may go first to that member who has completed all the requirements for that rank and demonstrated a devotion to duty that has resulted in him or her being noticed and deemed worthy of the promotion.

[jeders]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

So because I would want you to be an example of CAPs Core Values (because they're not just for cadets) I don't deserve respect, which is a core value. That's...interesting.